best bang for about $500???

bolson

Hey there, I am hoping you people can provide some insight to a newbie. I have recently purchased some LSi7 speakers along with a PSW202. I am looking for a receiver that will be a good match for around $500. I am looking at the Outlaw 1050, Onyko TXSR600, and any others that you guys can recommend. I am also looking to add a center channel speaker, probably the CSi40. Use will be for both home theater and music.

Looking forward to rants on products and/or my own ignorance

bolson

ok... if I were to double the budget, what would you recommend for $1000 or less.

wangotango68

you could get a decent amp and preamp/tuner for under a GRAND.
check ebay they are everywere. thats if you could live with out the a/v part.

scott:cool:

RuSsMaN

Outlaw and Oink should do just fine with the Lsi7.

I'd also recommend you look (listen) to NAD before you decide.

Cheers,
Russ

BeginnersLuck

If you are looking for a receiver, I would steer away from NAD right now...great sound, but quality control issues. My friend has bought one two years ago and it has spent half of its life in the shop. If you look up other reviews seem to have similar problems with the NAD.

I do own an Outlaw 1050 and I can tell you this from experience, it has absolutely no problem driving a 4 ohm load in a small to mid sized room. This receiver is a little outdated as far as features are concerned...but I think it can hold its own with receivers costing twice as much. Plus they do have great customer service. I am really impressed with Outlaw. Great sound for little money. It's definitely worth the 30 day trial!

Onkyo makes decent products but again, they tend to cater to the 6-8 ohm loads and neglect 4 ohm loads all together. However, it should get the job done.

You also might want to consider the Marantz 7300. It is agressivly rated at 105Watts per channel??? Not sure about that one, but it does sound nice. Ultimately, the choice is yours...but for $500, you won't find a better receiver than the Outlaw 1050.

-BL

shack

I think the Outlaw would work. 65 high current wpc - all channels driven.

BeginnersLuck

Actually, I think the 65 wpc is for an 8 ohm load, I'm not sure what it kicks out on a 4 ohm load?

-BL

mhw58

Onkyo receivers are made for 4, 6 and 8 ohms. I have the
Onkyo 595 and it powers my SDA 1C's very well. IMO,
Onkyo receivers are excellent and the 600 is supposed
to be a great receiver.
Mike

BeginnersLuck

Actually if you look closely at the back of your Onkyo 595 is say: "Impedance selector, Caution 6 ohms min. /speaker"

No where on the back or in the manual does it state that the receiver can drive a 4 ohm load. However, many people do it anyway and it still works. The amps just tend to run a lot hotter under 4 ohm operation.

Even Onkyo's flagship the 989 states :"Caution speaker impedance: 6 ohms min per each speaker teminal." This just means that when they design the amps, they are not taking into consideration (testing) 4 ohm loads...

-BL

danger boy

maybe look into getting a refurbished receiver. i've seen some decents Onkyo's online for a decent price. I don't have to much concern purchasing a refurbished receiver or amp from a reputable dealer. you may be able to get more for less $

danger boy

vanns.com

check out this recevier.. and others at Vanns.com they offer free ground shipping it looks like. they have other receivers in stock too.

Al

RuSsMaN

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&cat=REC&market=HOM

You can order direct from Harman, also.

Cheers,
Russ

TonyPTX

I'll put in a plug for my own equipment here....

I'm selling my Onkyo SR600 on E-bay. Going price right now is $300. I bought the unit at CC in June 2002 w/ the 5 year extended warranty and I'll transfer the warranty to the new purchaser. Check out the auction here. I can swear to you that I've treated this receiver like a child. I've just gotten to the point that the receiver is limiting some of my upgrade options and it has to go.

Frank Z

If tony can plug his gear, so can I!!

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8581

100w into 4ohms!!

BeginnersLuck

TonyPTX-

You just posted this in the Troubleshooting forum:
"I'll fourth that. Onkyo doesn't say it will run 4 ohm speaks. They claim a minimum of 6 ohms. If you crank it too high, you're probably clipping the amp and it's shutting off from overheating. If the Integra 7.1 has pre-amp outs, it may be worth looking at getting a seperate power amp rated for 4 ohm loads and connecting your LSi mains and center channel to it. It's one of the main reasons why I'm trying to sell my SR600."

I believe that the thread starter, bolson, is looking to power his LSi7's. In your qoute you claim that you Onkyo SR600 cannot handle the 4 ohm load of the LSi series. So Tony, I don't think bolon is interest becasue he will just be as dissapointed as you are with the Onkyo unit. So bolson, here is a heads up for you, don't buy an Onkyo! Many people seem to be having problems running the LSi series on their Onkyo/Integra equipment.

-BL

BeginnersLuck

As you stated in you thread topic, "the best bang for you buck" is clearly the Outlaw! Are there better receivers out there, yes. Are there better receiver for the $500 price tag...I don't think so!

I can honestly say that auditioned at leat 20 different receivers in the sub $1000 dollar range. I liked many of them. So I tried the Outlaw and it sounded great, and easily competes with other amps in the 1K price range. It also won Sterefile's Guide to Home Theater 2002 Editors' Choice Awards for budget gear of the year in 2002. That is quite an accomplishment from a highly regarded source. It is worth every penny!

Just my opinion,
-BL

danger boy

what is the web link for Outlaw?

thanks

shack

http://www.outlawaudio.com/home.html

VR3

I bagged the Pioneer Elite VSX-41 for $460.00. Although its rated down to 6 ohms. Not sure how well it would drive 4 ohm speakers. But hey, it has preouts!

TonyPTX

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
TonyPTX-

You just posted this in the Troubleshooting forum:
....

I believe that the thread starter, bolson, is looking to power his LSi7's. In your qoute you claim that you Onkyo SR600 cannot handle the 4 ohm load of the LSi series. So Tony, I don't think bolon is interest becasue he will just be as dissapointed as you are with the Onkyo unit. So bolson, here is a heads up for you, don't buy an Onkyo! Many people seem to be having problems running the LSi series on their Onkyo/Integra equipment.

-BL

In the interest of peace in the forum, I'll take that slap in the face for the rest of the team :rolleyes:

Onkyo makes fine products for the price and I never stated that I was "unhappy" with my 600. Honestly, I think that if you get a nice Onk with a seperate Powered Amp that can handle 4 ohm loads, it would make for a fine setup. I'd also be willing to bet that the 600 could drive the LSi line at moderate levels, but I doubt that any product not specifically rated for 4 ohm loads would run the LSi's to their full potential. It's all about the speaker efficency. A quality 4 ohm speaker w/ an efficency of 91 db/w/m would probably put a lower work load on receiver than say an cheap 8 ohm speaker with an efficency of 87 db/w/m to get the same "loudness".

As for the plug for my 600 sale, it probably wasn't called for and I'll admit it. That's why there is a Flea Market area and I have it posted there as well. I was on an Ebay high . I will probably be in the process of purchasing a new home in the near future and will want something with more features and power. Figured I'd sell my SR600 while it's still a new and popular unit and I can get at least half of what I paid for it back for re-investment into a new receiver.

And not that I have anything against Outlaw equipment, but I just checked the manual and specs for the 1050 and they don't even have a listing for anything lower than 8 ohms on their manual or specs!!! I also find it disappointing that they claim six-channel surround mode 65WPC, three channels driven? At least Onkyo stated 8 and 6 ohm loads.

Just my two cents...:cool:

BeginnersLuck

Hey Tony-

That's funny becasue I just looked through the manual and on page 12 in clearly states: "IMPEDANCE SELECTOR (4/8ohm) Use this switch to optimize the 1050 for the characteristic impedance of you speaker system. Note: Posistion this switch only when the unit is turned off." They also have a rather large write up on how to config your system on page 18...hmm did you really look at the manual.

At first I was skeptical of the 65Watts x 3 channels driven also...but you cannot always believe what is on paper...including overly agressive ratings as well as false spec advertising. So when I received my Outlaw 1050...I took it to my local audio store (AudioFX) and auditioned it next to an Marantz 7200, NAD, Arcam. Hey, why not, I had 30 days to try it out and compare it to the competition. The Outlaw competed easily with these $1000+ receivers. Although I liked the arcam, I could not justify the $1400 price tag compared the $500 price tag of the Outlaw with very similar performance, just a slight difference in sound. Then I took it to Good Guys and compared it to the denon 2803, and finally to CC to compare it to some the Onkyo 595 and 696. These units are suposedly rated at 75Watts/channel and 100Watts/channel respectively. So on paper the Onkyo 696 claims 100W/C but it was getting out performed by a 65W/C receiver...how embarassing! Maybe there is more to the rating game than meets the eye. The Outlaw simply claims that it can deliver 65W into 3 cahnnels simultaneously @ <0.05 THD. The Onkyo claims 0.08% THD but provides no mention of what mode they are testing these figures at. Are they in stereo mode? Are they running all channel? We as the consumer cannot know unless we speak to an Onkyo engineer who actually knows. This is why I mentioned that the Marantz, which sounds beautiful, is agressively rated at 105 Watts/Channel. Please, the 65Watt Outlaw had more headroom to deliver on the more complicated test material. These higher rated receivers seem to compress the material more when asked to deliever.

I guess my point is paper means nothing...it's all about real world performance...and I believe the best bang for you buck in the $500 dollar category is the Outlaw 1050. Home Theater Mag reviewed it and compared it to seperates the whole review. They guy still loved the unit. It's about real world application. My old Kenwood VR309 (very first receiver) was a great unit (rated @ 100W/C) could not a stick compared to the quality amplification of the Outlaw at only 65W/C.

Many people on the forums state their Outlaw 1050 pushing very difficult 4 ohm loads without a problem in a medium to small sized room. That's because it was designed to handle 4 ohm loads as well as 6 and 8 ohm loads as clearly indicated in the manual.

Just my 2 cents in practical application,
-BL

mhw58

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
Actually if you look closely at the back of your Onkyo 595 is say: "Impedance selector, Caution 6 ohms min. /speaker"

No where on the back or in the manual does it state that the receiver can drive a 4 ohm load. However, many people do it anyway and it still works. The amps just tend to run a lot hotter under 4 ohm operation.

Even Onkyo's flagship the 989 states :"Caution speaker impedance: 6 ohms min per each speaker teminal." This just means that when they design the amps, they are not taking into consideration (testing) 4 ohm loads...

-BL

Actually the back of the 600 says Caution 6 ohms min speaker.
The back of the 595 has a switch you can set to 4 ohms
and does not say anything about 6 ohms min.
Onkyo lists the receiver as putting out 155 wpc at 4 ohms
and even lists 3 ohms at 210 wpc:
TX-DS595 Digital Surround Home Theater Receiver
A/V Receivers TX-DS595
Amplifier Section
Power Output (8 ohm)
Front L/R 75 W/Ch
Center 75 W
Rear Surround L/R 75 W/Ch
Power Output (6 ohm)
Front L/R 100 W/Ch
Center 100 W
Rear Surround L/R 100 W/Ch
Surround Back None
Dynamic Power**
8 ohm 90 W/ch
4 ohm 155 W/ch
3 ohm 210 W/ch


I'm running SDA 1C's very well with this receiver, I'm not
sure if 1C's are 4 or 6 ohms but I've never had any clippping
problems with the Onkyo.
Mike

Systems

My understanding of the 4 ohm switch is that it reduces power to avoid overload. My Sony STRDA1ES receiver says 100 X 2 into 8 ohms & 80 X 2 into 4 ohms, but this presumes that you've set switch to 4 ohms if you have speakers rated a <8 ohms.
My understanding is that in the days of 2-ch dominance, the 4 ohm switching capability was only for extreme situations, like running 4 ohm spkrs w/low sensitivity at high volumes for a long time & on top of that, you have little ventilation for your receiver.
Unless you were in that kind of situation, you were better off leaving it at 8 ohms, since you got better power that way.
But if you are trying to run 5, 6, or 7 4-ohm spkrs, it may take a lot less to cause a shutdown or clipping.
Also, the rating of speaker impedance is not, to the best of my understanding, an industry constant. Stereophile's own measurements often rate spkrs at lower impedances than the manufacturer states because Stereophile uses a more conservative approach that takes into acct more difficult loads. Speakers are rated using A-weighting, B-weighting, etc, which can result in two honest but differing specs for the same spkrs. Point being that your spkr's official impedance & sensitivity figures may be the same as some other spkr, but that doesn't mean they'll deliver exactly the same volume at exactly the same power or put exactly the same strain on your rcvr.
Well, I'm just babbling. Somone else can take over now!;)

BeginnersLuck

My bad about the Onkyo 595...I just assumed they were the same as the Onkyo 600. I guess since Onkyo is becoming mass market, their higher quality standards dropping off a little.

mhw58-

Since you posted it, what does the following mean:
Dynamic Power**

Just currious, as I could not find what is means thumbing through the literature. Thanks in advance,

meestercleef-

on a side note: I think a truely powerful amp can deliver twice the power to an 4ohm load than an 8ohm load (100W @ 8ohm, 200W @ 4ohm). If the rating goes down into a four ohm load, the receiver is not really designed to push that 4ohm load effectively.

Just my 2 cents...
-BL

Systems

Yes, a truly powerful amp can do that, but most HT receivers don't have truly powerful 5, 6, or 7 channel amps. The ratings aren't done across the full bandwidith w/all channels driven simultaneously. Which doesn't automatically make them bad products, but does create another category of planning where you have to take into acct the actual (vs official) compatibility of system components, rather than just buying based on alleged specs.

BeginnersLuck

I agree! Well stated...

-BL

dmamsa

To what its worth:

I am in a process of upgrading my front 3 (Rt800i and CS400i) with the LSiC and Lsi9.

My receiver is Oink 787

I borrowed my freinds LsiC and Lsi7...and here is my first set of opinions.

1) Lsi series are much "cleaner" than the RTI line. I did notice a difference in a 2 channel setup. (bass response was "misssing" on the Lsi7 compared to the Rt800i as expected-floor vs bookshelf)

2) LSi line needs more "juice"- I did not feel that the 787 was providing enough juice to drive them.

Conclusion:

I may need to really think my receiver set up if I am upgrading my front 3 speakers...I think in order to do justice to the LSI line I need a "cleaner" amp...so I am looking at Rotel for example.

STUFFMD

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
TonyPTX-

You just posted this in the Troubleshooting forum:
"I'll fourth that. Onkyo doesn't say it will run 4 ohm speaks. They claim a minimum of 6 ohms. If you crank it too high, you're probably clipping the amp and it's shutting off from overheating. If the Integra 7.1 has pre-amp outs, it may be worth looking at getting a seperate power amp rated for 4 ohm loads and connecting your LSi mains and center channel to it. It's one of the main reasons why I'm trying to sell my SR600."

I believe that the thread starter, bolson, is looking to power his LSi7's. In your qoute you claim that you Onkyo SR600 cannot handle the 4 ohm load of the LSi series. So Tony, I don't think bolon is interest becasue he will just be as dissapointed as you are with the Onkyo unit. So bolson, here is a heads up for you, don't buy an Onkyo! Many people seem to be having problems running the LSi series on their Onkyo/Integra equipment.

-BL

STUFFMD

Sorry guys was trying to pull a quote from Beginnersluck....
Hey Beginners luck.....where the Hell did you get the info "a lot of guys seem to be having problems running the LSI line with their Oink equipment" and what exactly is a lot of guys.....I have been on this site for about a year and I have not heard 1 Oink owner...and I emphasize someone who owns one, complain about the Lsi / Oink matchup. I have heard the Lsi's run on 200 watt amps and yes they do sound better, but I know that would go for most combinations that you double the wattage, especially for the LSI line which likes to be driven.
My 797 is rated down to 3 Ohms.... runs the LsiC fine and when watching DVD' I run the reciever at about 65, have gone to 70 on occasion with no clipping or distortion. Ialso have not noticed the reciever running any hotter since I hooked up the LsiC even after switching my amp back to the 8 ohm setting after doing some extensive reading.
I know I'm a little defensive about Oink products, but as an owner of one I can tell you I have yet to have hooked up a speaker that can bring it to it's knees.....and for $850 I'll put it up against anything in it's range.
My 2 Stuff

mhw58

Stuffmd,
Could you tell me what made you decide to put the switch
to 8 ohms instead of 4? I wasn's sure whether to set it to
8 or 4 on my Onk 595 and right now I have it set to 4.
I agree with you about Onkyos, I think theyare great.
I'd like to get a 797 someday. It is interesting that the
newer models like the 600 and 700 say 6 ohms minimum
and the older ones have the 4 ohm switch.
Mike

STUFFMD

Hey Mhw /Mike,
I started to do some in depth studying into the whole Ohm setting thing. I read several articles especially from the guys in the know ( I will try to look up the last article I read on the subject tonight for you), like I said the ones who really understand the subject were saying the same thing in short, the ohm switching was created for the worry warts that were worried( in most cases unnecessarily so) about overheating their units. It was almost like Dvd players in cars, it was the latest and greatest thing to have on your units...If I also remember correctly they were saying that even if you have lower Ohm speakers it was very rare that they would dip to those rated levels, they were saying that there were some sound degredation issues on most amps with the lower Ohm settings in place.
I imagine with anything I am taking a certain risk with my equipment but, I also bi-wire which your also not "supposed to do "as well. The High Current Oink keeps on kicking **** and my unit has never shut itself down in a year and a half of use. Believe me I have tried to push this thing to the limits.
Peace, Stuff