American Cars Rock...

nooshinjohn

billbillw wrote: »

I'd love a new Pontiac G8 GT...not really American (since its built in Australia), but still has a LS pushrod V-8 engine! They are every bit as good as any Japanese or German car.

close but no cigar here. They are much better than the Pontiacs of recent past, but are at least 2 generations behind in terms of fit and finish and powertrain. I love the old pushrods as much as the next guy but, they are hopelessly outclassed by DOHC/4 valve/cylinder designs from Jag/MBZ/BMW. I will grant you that they are far better than the Japanese equivalent however.

Sherardp

Nice car and Happy B-day to mom. My next two cars will be either CLS550 or BMW 750i and eventually a Lambo Gallardo. I'll buy it when I get back from overseas.

goingganzo

if i ever buy another american car it will eather be a saturn sky redline or a caddy cts-v. but i am likeing the g37 or upgrade to a is350

billbillw

nooshinjohn wrote: »

close but no cigar here. They are much better than the Pontiacs of recent past, but are at least 2 generations behind in terms of fit and finish and powertrain. I love the old pushrods as much as the next guy but, they are hopelessly outclassed by DOHC/4 valve/cylinder designs from Jag/MBZ/BMW. I will grant you that they are far better than the Japanese equivalent however.

Have you driven one? They are very competitive. You can't touch a German sedan that competes with the G8 GT unless you spend an extra $20,000. Sure, for that much extra, it will have a little better fit/finish.

Motor? I wouldn't say hopelessly outclassed at all. 360HP available at real world RPMs and gobs of torque available almost immediately. DOHC/4 valve is nice if you are revving the piss out of the motor (past 5k is when the benefit starts to come in), but for street driving, it has very little benefit, other than added cost and maintenance.

That G8 GT can easily reach low 13 second quarter mile times with just a cold air intake and a ECU tune.

Interesting read (@ carandriver.com)
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/04q2/the_pushrod_engine_finally_gets_its_due-column

Serendipity

Ron-P wrote: »

Happy Birthday to your mom, hope she really enjoy's here new ride.

But as far as this...

I cannot agree. I'd never buy anything American.

Whoa... what's so bad about American cars?

concealer404

billbillw wrote: »

Have you driven one? They are very competitive. You can't touch a German sedan that competes with the G8 GT unless you spend an extra $20,000. Sure, for that much extra, it will have a little better fit/finish.

Motor? I wouldn't say hopelessly outclassed at all. 360HP available at real world RPMs and gobs of torque available almost immediately. DOHC/4 valve is nice if you are revving the piss out of the motor (past 5k is when the benefit starts to come in), but for street driving, it has very little benefit, other than added cost and maintenance.

That G8 GT can easily reach low 13 second quarter mile times with just a cold air intake and a ECU tune.

I know we're talking different motors and all, but "past 5k" is something i see associated all the time with DOHC/4valve on this forum, and others....

Could someone explain that to me? Personally, i find that a gross generalization. Two of my three cars are DOHC/4valve and even on a dyno plot, it shows that it's not necessary to rev to 5k to get to the meat of the powerband.

If it's a Honda, definitely, but they're the exception rather than the norm.

On the flip side, if you're looking at street driving, you don't need 360hp, regardless of where it comes in at the RPM range. Using that 360hp at 3000rpms is no different from using 360hp at 7000 rpms.

billbillw

concealer404 wrote: »

I know we're talking different motors and all, but "past 5k" is something i see associated all the time with DOHC/4valve on this forum, and others....

Could someone explain that to me? Personally, i find that a gross generalization. Two of my three cars are DOHC/4valve and even on a dyno plot, it shows that it's not necessary to rev to 5k to get to the meat of the powerband.

If it's a Honda, definitely, but they're the exception rather than the norm.

On the flip side, if you're looking at street driving, you don't need 360hp, regardless of where it comes in at the RPM range. Using that 360hp at 3000rpms is no different from using 360hp at 7000 rpms.

The RPM association with OHV engines is because at greater RPM, they cannot control the valve timing as well (due to the extra inertia from the pushrods). Because of that, most pushrod V8s have redlines around 6500rpm or less and they are tuned to have power peaks around 5500-6000rpm. Also, the extra benefit of larger valve openings (associated with having 4 valves vs 2 valves) really doesn't start to help until you get to higher RPMs where the engine really needs to breath.

Don't need 360hp? That's a personal opinion. If everyone felt that way, then why is every car manufacturer pushing the horsepower numbers higher and higher? Heck, the standard Toyota Camry and Nisan Altima V-6s are both rated around 270HP and those are not really considered 'performance' cars. They are family sedans.

Serendipity

On the Nissan Maxima, the VQ30DE doesn't even start to make significant power until 5k.

Which is fine for street driving (usually around 2-2.5k). It usually sits around 2k all day long - I cruise on the highway at 55mph with the engine at 2k.

concealer404

billbillw wrote: »

The RPM association with OHV engines is because at greater RPM, they cannot control the valve timing as well (due to the extra inertia from the pushrods). Because of that, most pushrod V8s have redlines around 6500rpm or less and they are tuned to have power peaks around 5500-6000rpm. Also, the extra benefit of larger valve openings (associated with having 4 valves vs 2 valves) really doesn't start to help until you get to higher RPMs where the engine really needs to breath.

Don't need 360hp? That's a personal opinion. If everyone felt that way, then why is every car manufacturer pushing the horsepower numbers higher and higher? Heck, the standard Toyota Camry and Nisan Altima V-6s are now has 270HP and those are not really considered 'performance' cars.

Yeah, but 360hp is 360hp, regardless of where it comes on. You mention street driving, where revving it to 5k+ is a negative. I dunno, that's hard for me to explain what i'm trying to say. Carry on, no big deal.

But i'm still curious as to where the arbitrary 5k rpm point comes from for DOHC/4valve engines.

I have a Celica with a 2.2 litre DOHC 16v, and 5k rpms is actually where it starts LOSING power. I hit peak torque before then, and it starts to drop off even before i hit 5k. It makes the meat of it's power in the 3-5k rpm range.

My Escort with a 1.8 litre DOHC 16v makes the bulk of it's power by 4k, and holds it to 7200rpms.

These aren't even modern DOHCs.

Just sayin'. I'm not going to argue that pushrod motors have a different power curve, but simply that tagging an arbitrary number such as 5k is a little misleading.

sucks2beme

billbillw wrote: »

The RPM association with OHV engines is because at greater RPM, they cannot control the valve timing as well (due to the extra inertia from the pushrods). Because of that, most pushrod V8s have redlines around 6500rpm or less and they are tuned to have power peaks around 5500-6000rpm. Also, the extra benefit of larger valve openings (associated with having 4 valves vs 2 valves) really doesn't start to help until you get to higher RPMs where the engine really needs to breath.

Don't need 360hp? That's a personal opinion. If everyone felt that way, then why is every car manufacturer pushing the horsepower numbers higher and higher? Heck, the standard Toyota Camry and Nisan Altima V-6s are both rated around 270HP and those are not really considered 'performance' cars. They are family sedans.

Peak HP ratings are BS. Torque/RPM graph means something. If a car can't
generate any torque at lower RPMs, what good is it?

concealer404

sucks2beme wrote: »

Peak HP ratings are BS. Torque/RPM graph means something. If a car can't
generate any torque at lower RPMs, what good is it?

This is why turbo cars rule the earth.

Serendipity

concealer404 wrote: »

Yeah, but 360hp is 360hp, regardless of where it comes on. You mention street driving, where revving it to 5k+ is a negative. I dunno, that's hard for me to explain what i'm trying to say. Carry on, no big deal.

But i'm still curious as to where the arbitrary 5k rpm point comes from for DOHC/4valve engines.

I have a Celica with a 2.2 litre DOHC 16v, and 5k rpms is actually where it starts LOSING power. I hit peak torque before then, and it starts to drop off even before i hit 5k. It makes the meat of it's power in the 3-5k rpm range.

My Escort with a 1.8 litre DOHC 16v makes the bulk of it's power by 4k, and holds it to 7200rpms.

These aren't even modern DOHCs.

Just sayin'. I'm not going to argue that pushrod motors have a different power curve, but simply that tagging an arbitrary number such as 5k is a little misleading.

Keep in mind a car has GEARS.

Like sucks2beme stated, if a car can't generate any torque at lower RPMs, what good is it? I'd rather have an engine that is more balanced instead of one in which you have to rev it a lot before it makes peak power.

concealer404

appadv wrote: »

Keep in mind a car has GEARS.

Like sucks2beme stated, if a car can't generate any torque at lower RPMs, what good is it? I'd rather have an engine that is more balanced instead of one in which you have to rev it a lot before it makes peak power.

Oh, i know..... I just don't understand why people fixate on it. If you want to go fast in a high strung car, just rev the piss out of it. You don't need all that power way up there to keep up with traffic on a daily basis...

I dunno... i just tend to look at the car as a package, not just the motor. It's all personal preference. I have nothing against torque monsters, nor weedeaters.

I was just curious why the arbitrary number 5000 came about. Just idle curiousity, really....

billbillw

concealer404 wrote: »

Oh, i know..... I just don't understand why people fixate on it. If you want to go fast in a high strung car, just rev the piss out of it. You don't need all that power way up there to keep up with traffic on a daily basis...

I dunno... i just tend to look at the car as a package, not just the motor. It's all personal preference. I have nothing against torque monsters, nor weedeaters.

I was just curious why the arbitrary number 5000 came about. Just idle curiousity, really....

The 5k number is really just a way of oversimplifying things. Obviously, there are many variables like cam profiles, bore/stroke ratios, intake design, etc, but in general, the real benefit of having DOHC and 4 valves/cylinder doesn't really happen until you are well up in the RPMs. 5k is kinda arbitrary, in some motors, it may be 5500, in others it may be 4500.

Systems

appadv wrote: »

Whoa... what's so bad about American cars?

There's always going to somebody that will chime in on these type of threads bashing American cars. You can bet money on it.....

concealer404

billbillw wrote: »

The 5k number is really just a way of oversimplifying things. Obviously, there are many variables like cam profiles, bore/stroke ratios, intake design, etc, but in general, the real benefit of having DOHC and 4 valves/cylinder doesn't really happen until you are well up in the RPMs. 5k is kinda arbitrary, in some motors, it may be 5500, in others it may be 4500.

Gotcha. Was just curious as to why that number is so widespread.

All good.

Serendipity

The benefit I see of having lots of torque low in the RPM range is that you can cruise on the highway with relatively good fuel economy.

Not saying that DOHC/4 valve isnt' bad, but it all comes down to personal preference.

concealer404

appadv wrote: »

The benefit I see of having lots of torque low in the RPM range is that you can cruise on the highway with relatively good fuel economy.

Not saying that DOHC/4 valve isnt' bad, but it all comes down to personal preference.

Yup!

I loved and miss my old Camaro.

But on the flip side, the little sewing machine in my Escort makes me smile while returning ridiculous gas mileage.

Yeah, it's still an Escort, but this is one of those scenarios where i look like a hypocrite and say that i look past the rest of the car and focus on the Mazda motor inside.

Ron-P

nooshinjohn wrote: »

They used to rock and rock hard!!!

I will agree.

Sadly, while import's have increased in quality and design American's have not, they decided long ago to go the opposite direction with both design and quality.

Serendipity

Ron-P wrote: »

I will agree.

Sadly, while import's have increased in quality and design American's have not, they decided long ago to go the opposite direction with both design and quality.

I'm not so sure about that... my Dad's owned Chrysler, Nissan, and Volvo in the past and the Japanese cars haven't been problem free...

All of them had their fair share of problems.

ohskigod

Lorthos wrote: »

There's always going to somebody that will chime in on these type of threads bashing American cars. You can bet money on it.....

no truer words spoken. My .02, liking or hating cars based on origin is such a silly thing to do.

last i heard if you go by country, german cars have the worst reliability ratings......but I can still think of a german car or two I wouldnt mind driving around town.

I look at the car, regardless of origin. I research, drive it, and research it extensivly. I have owned Swedish (Volvo), American, and Japanese (Toyota). I liked them all because I did research before buying them.

I currently own all American cars, not because I'm a flag waving US car only guy, but because I liked the cars, at the pricepoint with what you got for them.

I reearched that My wife's Ford Fusion has better reliabilty ratings than equivalent Camry's (4 cyl to 4 and 6 cyl to 6) Plus the deal I got was ridiculous and it's one of my favorite car's to drive.

I bought my Mustang not because i am a flag waver and only like 8 cylinders. I bought it because a)I fit in it (i'm a large guy), b) performance per dollar is awesome not to mention c) the aftermarket is insane, you can make it do anything short of self sustaining flight depending on money and desire.

yes, the 8 cyl feels and sounds great, it doesnt mean there arent cars out there with 4 and 6 cylinders that are great in there own right.

dont limit yourself, research extensivly and buy what makes you happy regardless of where it is made and other factors.

shack

ohskigod wrote:

I bought my Mustang not because i am a flag waver and only like 8 cylinders. I bought it because a)I fit in it (i'm a large guy), b) performance per dollar is awesome not to mention c) the aftermarket is insane, you can make it do anything short of self sustaining flight depending on money and desire.

As I recall your also fit into a Yaris (not easily...but fit none-the-less)...:eek:

Serendipity

ohskigod wrote: »

no truer words spoken. My .02, liking or hating cars based on origin is such a silly thing to do.

last i heard if you go by country, german cars have the worst reliability ratings......but I can still think of a german car or two I wouldnt mind driving around town.

I look at the car, regardless of origin. I research, drive it, and research it extensivly. I have owned Swedish (Volvo), American, and Japanese (Toyota). I liked them all because I did research before buying them.

I currently own all American cars, not because I'm a flag waving US car only guy, but because I liked the cars, at the pricepoint with what you got for them.

I reearched that My wife's Ford Fusion has better reliabilty ratings than equivalent Camry's (4 cyl to 4 and 6 cyl to 6) Plus the deal I got was ridiculous and it's one of my favorite car's to drive.

I bought my Mustang not because i am a flag waver and only like 8 cylinders. I bought it because a)I fit in it (i'm a large guy), b) performance per dollar is awesome not to mention c) the aftermarket is insane, you can make it do anything short of self sustaining flight depending on money and desire.

yes, the 8 cyl feels and sounds great, it doesnt mean there arent cars out there with 4 and 6 cylinders that are great in there own right.

dont limit yourself, research extensivly and buy what makes you happy regardless of where it is made and other factors.

+1

Couldn't be better said. Mustangs are awesome too and very reliable!!

nooshinjohn

I love American cars!!! The trouble is that with a few exceptions, the STOPPED building them! Why, you ask? It all began with a little piss-ant jackass named Ralph Nader. Safety standards that were applied to cars in the late 60's/70's did not and stilll do not apply to trucks/SUV's. The increased regulations forced manufacturers to do something that KILLED them called platform sharing, hence chevy=pontiac-buick=olds=caddy.

Granted, the car companies were insanely short-sighted, poorly run and just flat out gave up on the great American automobile. They instead chose to go the SUV route, which are far more profitable due in large part fewer government restrictions. Save Detroit by taking off the restrictions and let them compete based upon the merits of their product.

I know this greatly oversimplifies things but now that the government builds cars... can anyone see Obama's version of the Trabant or the People's Car very far behind?

Ron-P

Lorthos wrote: »

There's always going to somebody that will chime in on these type of threads bashing American cars. You can bet money on it.....

I'll always bash American cars, why, I've owned several, never again...ever! Nothing but piles of crap! Constant problems, just like BMW's, I'll never buy another German product, just as bad as American made...total crap. Constantly in the shop for repairs.

But, bashing is in no way different then praising, it's just the opposite end of the spectrum. But, there's always those that get offended because someone doesn't like what they like and they have to make sure it gets brought to everyone's attention because they are upset that not everyone likes what they like.

nooshinjohn

Ron-P wrote: »

I'll always bash American cars, why, I've owned several, never again...ever! Nothing but piles of crap! Constant problems, just like BMW's, I'll never buy another German product, just as bad as American made...total crap. Constantly in the shop for repairs.

But, bashing is in no way different then praising, it's just the opposite end of the spectrum. But, there's always those that get offended because someone doesn't like what they like and they have to make sure it gets brought to everyone's attention because they are upset that not everyone likes what they like.

And your perfectly free to do so, until the White House opens up a website to report those that bash American cars as they did for those that trash the healthcare plan. And besides, California is renown the world over for Bashing all things American, including America.:p

everpress

I've no love for American economy cars. They generally are of poor craftsmanship. Not always, mind you.
But a truck. No one builds a truck like American companies... Sure, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Mazda and Suzuki build them... But give me a 1985 Chevy Silverado Shortbed any day.

cnh

I don't know what to say to the above. Have no animosity toward American cars, we have one...and a Toyota...what I find is that the American cars, as they get closer and closer to the magic 100k start racking up repairs like mad?

Just spent almost 900 on the rear suspension of my Impala...the springs were CRACKING at 90.5K?? Last year, the infamous Dexcool took out my gaskets....800 dollars there. Wheel-bearings on the front tire--shot! Two years ago...like CLOCKWORK according to all reports on the WEB..the BCM shot to ****--500 dollars.

This year again, lock cylinder and pass lock failure. A friend of mine thankfully, for FREE simply bypassed THAT USELESS FEATURE by rewiring the system or that would have been another 600 for me.

At 40K my breaks were COMPLETELY redone? Our former Camry had ONE break job in 150K? And I've probably forgotten a few repairs.

I also owned a Ford Escort cerca 80s that was a repair sink-hole. And my friend owns a newer version that is equally BAD!

John, you can't blame Ralph for EVERYTHING! Even if he has gone off the deep end in recent years!

cnh

madmike

I still like the new Challengers

nooshinjohn

cnh wrote: »

Just spent almost 900 on the rear suspension of my Impala...the springs were CRACKING at 90.5K?? Last year, the infamous Dexcool took out my gaskets....800 dollars there. Wheel-bearings on the front tire--shot! Two years ago...like CLOCKWORK according to all reports on the WEB..the BCM shot to ****--500 dollars.

This year again, lock cylinder and pass lock failure. A friend of mine thankfully, for FREE simply bypassed THAT USELESS FEATURE by rewiring the system or that would have been another 600 for me.

John, you can't blame Ralph for EVERYTHING! Even if he has gone off the deep end in recent years!

cnh

Quality has everything to do with the money able to be spent on devoloping it, and I did say that I was over-simplifying everything I said. I could go on for several pages as to why the American auto industry is a shadow of it's former self, and if in charge of one of them without the restraints placed on them by the Fed and the Labor Unions, could turn them around on a dime. I do not blame Nader for their failure as he is just the squeaky ball joint, but he did get the ball rolling.

The engine in your car was no doubt the 3.1 liter V6. This engine is assembled almost exclusively by machine. It's intake has 4 dogtooth alignment tabs that are designed to fit slots on the cylinder heads. The trouble with this is that it does not provide for a flat gasket surface and as the gasket ages and becomes brittle, it leaks at the weakest point. In this case it is at the alignment tabs.
Dexcool is not the problem, rather a poor design that was forced by cost-cutting measures....
Be careful with the bypass of passlock as it most likely is a symptom of a bigger problem.

As far as fixing Detroit, I will not go into details but sufice to say that I would have taken a page out of President Reagan's negotiation playbook at contract time, and done so a very long time ago.