Lacking bass on RTA 11T

barakus

Thanks, everyone.

I've been on a bit of a spending spree lately (I'm typing on a new netbook), so I'm going to hold off on a new receiver for as long as I can. My Kenwood apparently has a loose connection to the IR receiver after all these years, so I've honestly been annoyed with it because the remote control only works about half the time.

I'll make that Harman Kardon my first choice for now, but I'll have to do a lot of thinking about what's best for my situation. I'm sure I'd be fine with a two channel receiver, but for some strange reason I always want to have the option of surround, even though it's unthinkable for me to set up rears in my living room and can't see a good way to mount a matched center channel with the 11Ts.

My knowledge of receivers is woefully inadequate at this point, so a bunch of research is going to be required. If anyone has any suggestions for vintage equipment to search eBay for, it'll be considered. I need video and CD input and subwoofer line output, but I'm coming around to considering two channel.

I wonder if I have any neighbors who'll let me borrow a proper amplifier so I can make sure these 11Ts are capable of wowing me properly.

By the way, I'm a saver, so I've got plenty of money to buy whatever if I start to lose my mind. I've been eyeing a pair of Definitive Technology Mythos STS speakers for a while. Please, don't make me do it!

EDIT: I just thought of a couple of things to add. First, I realize that all watts are not equal, but the 11T manual recommends 30-250 watts. It seems like 100 spurious watts should equal 30 good watts. I feel like a new receiver would help, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Which brings me to another potential problem that I hadn't thought about until now. My speaker wire sucks. I'm not a Monster Wire sucker -- no offense to those who are -- but I have very light gauge speaker wire. I don't know what it is, but it's thin. I'm gonna try to get some proper wire, although it's a hassle because half of it is snaked under carpeting.

heiney9

Proper amplification, proper speaker cable and proper placement and they will come alive. I had a pair of RTA 11T's for 20 years and placement (especially for bass) is important. Don't give up just keep tweaking. My RTA 11's put out more bass than I could stand, of course I was using all separates.

Good luck

H9

barakus

I've been wondering about how the lower impedance of the 11Ts could be affecting my meager receiver. Maybe somebody could teach me something; I find electricity scary and confusing. I just did a little google search for impedance and frequency response and quickly got confused after a long day. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

I know enough to know that the interrelation between a source and a speaker is a complex one and that impedance changes across frequency response. But is it true that lowering the average load on the amplifier could change the output in the bass range? I guess that would depend on the impedance in those frequencies?

I ask this because there was more bass in the 60Hz range coming out of the Monitor 7s, which seems strange to me. I really have no idea what happens when an amplifier starts getting overworked by a given load, and am curious about it.

Ron Temple

I'm certainly no expert either. I'm sure you can get a better explanation. Impedence varies throughout the frequency response on all speakers. Impedence is resistance to current flow. If a speaker requires more current to operate efficiently within it's parameters it draws down on the power supply and capacitors of the amplifier supplying it. The lower the impedence/resistance the more current gets sucked up. If the amplifier doesn't have the reserves or can't keep up, the speaker still works, but not optimally. That's what's happening to you. You hear the bass when running sweeps, but it's not impressive during playback. Your AVR just can't supply the bottom 2 octaves with enough power to push the drivers/PRs.

I'm not going to give you a half **** analogy (I'm too ignorant ), maybe someone else will.

However, when shopping for an amp or AVR, pay attention to the specs. Most rate their power 20hz-20khz at 8 ohms. The better models will give you 6 or 4 ohm ratings as well. Your Kenwood chopped off the bottom octave of their FR. This tells me it either can't get below 40hz due to a brickwall filter or there's just not much power available and they weren't interested in publishing the true specs. AVR power ratings are always suspect. Most companies feel they have to publish 100w/channel rating to compete. It's just that some 100w/channel claims are more like 30w or less depending on the frequency.

barakus

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I'm thinking about selling the 11Ts and reverting to the 7s. That would be free, and I was pretty much fine with the Monitors.

I don't do critical listening to my stereo nightly or even weekly. My main criterion for a system is that it doesn't hurt or annoy my ears, and the Monitor 7s with that Kenwood sound pretty darn good 99% of the time. I would definitely miss the imaging and more modern look (!) of the 11Ts, but I lived with the 7s for about a year without a problem.

I'm completely undecided at this point, but if any of you are dying for a pair of RTA 11Ts and can pick up in South Jersey, you could probably make my decision for me. They would need tweeters and the cabinets have a couple of dents.

everpress

barakus wrote: »

You guys are going to hate me for this, but I'm thinking about selling the 11Ts and reverting to the 7s. That would be free, and I was pretty much fine with the Monitors.

I don't do critical listening to my stereo nightly or even weekly. My main criterion for a system is that it doesn't hurt or annoy my ears, and the Monitor 7s with that Kenwood sound pretty darn good 99% of the time. I would definitely miss the imaging and more modern look (!) of the 11Ts, but I lived with the 7s for about a year without a problem.

I'm completely undecided at this point, but if any of you are dying for a pair of RTA 11Ts and can pick up in South Jersey, you could probably make my decision for me. They would need tweeters and the cabinets have a couple of dents.

In my opinion, you should have the speaker that fits you. If you enjoy the 7's more than the 11T's, stick with them!

kcoc321

Barak, I do not think anyone will hate you either way....you like what you like..

BUT.....another trouble shooting "tip" just showed popped up on another thread.
the guy re-freshing his 10's discovered that the nuts on one of the binding posts were reversed...
resulting in the speakers being out of phase, even though the wires "looked" right at the drivers. That would account for your lack of bass, and would not be something one would notice unless you were looking for it....
(remember, black is POS...)

I am going to check all the 'new' speakers I buy from know on...
good catch JohnLocke88..:D

jimbo1421

kcoc321 wrote: »

Barak, I do not think anyone will hate you either way....you like what you like..

BUT.....another trouble shooting "tip" just showed popped up on another thread.
the guy re-freshing his 10's discovered that the nuts on one of the binding posts were reversed...
resulting in the speakers being out of phase, even though the wires "looked" right at the drivers. That would account for your lack of bass, and would not be something one would notice unless you were looking for it....
(remember, black is POS...)

I am going to check all the 'new' speakers I buy from know on...
good catch JohnLocke88..:D

Black/blue is positive inside the cabinet. At the terminal cup positive is on the left and is supposed to have the red nut on it, matching the red, positive output on the amp. At least that is the way it is on my four vintage Polks. Here's a pic from my Monitor 10 manual. I added the red circles.

Jim

barakus

I checked the wiring to the woofers last night, but I'll check the binding posts when I get a chance. That is a weird bug! I'm gonna have to go read that thread now.

kcoc321

thanks Jimbo for the clarification, incase I confused anyone... I was speaking about the black WIRE inside the cabinet, is as you say connected to the "RED" terminal binding post.
sorry if I confused anyone. :eek:

rallyshark

I agree you should stick with what makes you happy, and if the M7 is it, then go for it. I do, however, feel that you are doing yourself an injustice by not listening to 11Ts on a better receiver/amp(even if you have to borrow one). Ignorance is indeed bliss, and I don't mean that in a bad way:) I was perfectly happy with far worse equipment than I have now, because I had not heard anything better. Knowing what I know now, I couldn't stand to listen to the lesser set up. It would give me a headache! You're basically saying you want to get rid of your "mustang" because you put bad gas in it and it doesn't run right, and you're going to stick with the "focus", because it runs fine with bad gas! You get my point;) You being happy is always paramount though, and if Monitor 7s(which aren't bad at all) is what works for you, then that is just as awesome as someone who is happy with their new $5,000 speakers:) Happy Listening!

barakus

And it begins! You're all gonna convince me to have nitrogen-cooled 1000 watt monoblock amplifiers soon. I'll take solace in the fact that a pair of SRS monoliths would never fit in my 15'x15' living room.

I'm solidly on the fence right now, but it probably wouldn't hurt in any case to get a better source at some point.

Actually I should have pointed out that the new mini system I got for my bedroom supports the weak source theory. This new thing is no powerhouse, but it's infinitely better than the awful boombox thing I had before. I expected a small increase in sound quality but bought it for a large increase in convenience and usability (remote, iPod dock, etc.) But I'm hearing a large increase in bass response from my little Athena bookshelf speakers with the new Sony. I guess it provides a "good" 18 WPC. Maybe I should try my 11Ts on that thing!

PS: rallyshark - you're giving me a headache with your Ford analogies! If I had kept my Ford stock over the last couple of months, I could easily upgrade my whole system.

rallyshark

HAHA! I'm a Ford man, what can I say:D At least I didn't use a Government Motors analogy, then it just would have been confusing! Good luck with your choice:)

everpress

barakus wrote: »

And it begins! You're all gonna convince me to have nitrogen-cooled 1000 watt monoblock amplifiers soon. I'll take solace in the fact that a pair of SRS monoliths would never fit in my 15'x15' living room.

I did a little bit of looking around before I settled on my HK AVR 55. It's an older model, but for the price, the options couldn't be beat. $90 after shipping on eBay.
Yep, it's a decade old, but it works well. I could have bought a cheap, higher watt receiver (either HT or 2-channel), but I wanted one that could do 5.1 surround, supported a powered sub, and a digital input for my computer. But it also had to have a dedicated input for my turntable because I don't want a ton of visible electronic boxes in my house (so no pre-amp).
Anything comparable to that on the current market new cost more than my first car did.
That said, you don't absolutely need a biggest, most awesome amp to drive these... Just clean power. And you can get it inexpensively if you know exactly what you want.

barakus

Bit of an update... I switched out my skinny wires for some nice 16 gauge and I think the 11Ts are doing a little better now. I should have kept one connected with the old wires to compare, but didn't think of it and don't feel like digging an old one out of the trash to try it.

I've been learning to appreciate my Grado SR-60 headphones over last week or so, which are a little forward at the high end and somewhat weak in bass. They're capable of putting out prodigious bass, but it's rare to hear. The low end that is there is very tight and musical. So maybe my Grado experience is tempering my 11T expectations. I could definitely feel the bass in my chest today with the new wires.

I'm going to do my research on used receivers and take it from there. I'm sure I could get better sound from a better source, I'm just not sure how much of an improvement it'll be.

rallyshark

From what I've read about your kenwood, and what you said about the lack of bass. I'm thinking you will hear a rather significant improvement myself, but I'm no expert:D The 11T is just not a speaker that I've heard anyone normally complain about a lack of bass. That's based mostly on what I've learned on this forum. Personally, I find the amount of bass that the M11Ts that I have is quite surprising, and they have shocked a lot of my friends. I think you will be very happy once you get some good solid power going to them.

everpress

barakus wrote: »

I've been learning to appreciate my Grado SR-60 headphones over last week or so, which are a little forward at the high end and somewhat weak in bass. They're capable of putting out prodigious bass, but it's rare to hear. The low end that is there is very tight and musical.

I love my SR-60's, but when I first got them, I felt the same way.
I went on eBay and searched for the best bang-for-your-buck portable headphone amp. More gear, I know, but I grabbed the FiiO E5 (which has gotten very good reviews ESPECIALLY for the price) for $10 new and shipped.

It has a "bass boost" feature that is extremely clean and non-artificial. I've heard the SR-80s on up are marginally better on the low-end (until you reach their top-tier products around the SR-325 range), but I'd rather spend the $10 extra for a nice tiny amp that I can use on any headphone than an additional $30+.

Also, look at what pads you have on there; bowls will strengthen the mids and highs even more; the softies will help pull those back to bring them a little more in tune with the lows. And you can always pop down to Radio Shack and pick up some softies that fit the SR-60 and wash the **** out of them. Some people say that the subtleties of a thicker, softer ear pad really makes a difference, but I've yet to try that out.... Maybe this weekend.

It's nice to see another Grado owner on the Polk boards though.

barakus

everpress wrote: »

Grado stuff.

I'm always thrilled to find audio equipment that sounds better than expected (like vintage Polk), and got a pair of Sennheiser PX 100s based on recommendations I saw for use at work. I was blown away that a reasonably-priced headphone could sound so good and be so easy to wear for long periods of time.

Thinking maybe it was time to step it up a notch, I diligently researched the subject for the next recommended headphone up the price road, and the SR-60 is the overwhelming favorite. I was expecting to be blown away and hear probably the best audio reproduction I'd ever experienced. I felt like I had been robbed and like all of humanity had conspired against me in an effort to ruin my day and good humor when they were finally delivered and hooked up. It didn't help that my first music selection was Joanna Newsom, who is fairly shrill-voiced and plays a harp.

But after getting used to the 60s (and possibly having them break in a little), I now find it hard to listen to the PX 100s. The Grados are still a little rough on loud, forward music -- I'm looking at you, Pixies -- but I can hear things through them that I don't hear anywhere else. And when bass is really called for, they come through. My biggest issue now is that they are open and bleed through to the outside world so thoroughly that I can't really listen to 'em as loud as I'd like in my cubicle farm.

I've thought about getting different pads, but I'm too afraid of losing some of their positive qualities. I just heard about E5 amp a couple of weeks ago and am certainly considering it. I never heard of getting one for $10. I'll go look for a cheap one now.

EDIT - Just bought an E5 for around $20. Looking forward to getting some bass from somewhere. Ha!

everpress

barakus wrote: »

More Grado Stuff

Yeah, Newsom with that odd voice and beautiful harp would be a bit... Grating.

Did you allow for a break-in time on yours? I was pretty sure everyone was full of **** when they were saying to plug them into an audio source, crank the volume to 3/4 Max, throw a pillow on them and walk away for a week.

I listened to mine for a full 8 hour work day when they came in; then I left them at work cranked over a weekend. I came back and put them on. I'm not sure if it was just my urge to want to have them sound better, or an actual break-in time, but they were improved and not quite as harsh.

Grado's are great for just about everything (except pop/hip-hop/rap) but excel at classic rock (think Zeppelin) and grunge. I'm surprised that you had a rough time with the Pixies; their guitar sounds like an electrified icicle flying through the air and straight into heaven.

My E5 - I found a buy-it-now from Australia; the currency conversion ended up being about $10 and the seller had free shipping from somewhere in Asia.
I'm pretty sure that I got the best deal available and that it cost the seller money to send it... I almost felt bad... Almost.

barakus

everpress wrote: »

Grado's are great for just about everything (except pop/hip-hop/rap) but excel at classic rock (think Zeppelin) and grunge. I'm surprised that you had a rough time with the Pixies; their guitar sounds like an electrified icicle flying through the air and straight into heaven.

I think Doolittle in particular is mastered to sound kind of thin, and that's amplified by the Grados. I love to hear Kim Deal as much as the guitar interplay. The bass on Monkey Gone to Heaven, for instance, sounds like an 80s Casio synth more than like a real bass. Hope I get the E5 soon! iPod EQ settings are useless.

Oh, and no, I never broke the Grados in properly. I've had them for quite a while now and I'm pretty sure they're broken in at this point.

barakus

Well, I've fixed the problem.

All of you who suggested a new amp would help get a cookie! I bought an Onkyo TX-DS777 on eBay and am now astonished at what the 11Ts can put out. It's really overwhelming. I've never experienced such an intensely palpable sound experience outside of live music. I haven't listened to them at a reasonable level as of yet; I'm too busy holding up random objects in front of the speakers and feeling them vibrate!

Time will tell if they offer the same sweet sound as the Monitors at more reasonable listening levels. I guess I'm going to have to start throwing parties now.

Thanks to everyone who helped me get to the bottom of this mystery. Anybody have any suggestions on how to fix an oversized Onkyo into an undersized TV stand?

zarrdoss

A saws-all