TUBE NEWB seeks 12AX7 / ECC83 Advice

inspiredsports

It was bound to happen, and I've dipped (with a tiptoe) into the liquidity of tubing. Fedex rang the bell at 7:45 AM and I've had my new 12AX7 tube based entry-level phono tube preamp cranking out tunes constantly since shortly before 8 AM rolled around.

The Sovtek 12AX7LPS* is brand new so it will need some time to simmer, but the sound quality and soundstage are already clearly superior to the great phono stages in my solid state NAD 2600, NAD 7600 and my 2 stand alone Thorens MM-001's.

I've read enough to get myself in trouble, but would like to tube roll this new pre to find the tube that is most synergistic with my overall system. It's a simple enough proposition as the unit uses just one tube.

Here's the list with those I believe will sound best descending to those I believe will not be a good match.

1) Ei --- 12AX7 / ECC83
2) Tung-Sol --- 12AX7
3) Mullard Reissue: --- 12AX7 / ECC83
4) Jan Phillips --- 5751 (same pinout, and said to not be lower gain as tyical 5751's)
5) Jan Phillips --- 12AX7-WA
6) Sovtek --- 12AX7LPS (*this is what's in the stock unit)
7) Electro-Harmonix --- 12AX7
8) Jan Phillips --- 5751 (same pinout, and said to not be lower gain as tyical 5751's)
I probably will not pursue these last 4
9) Tesla / JJ --- 12AX7 / ECC83-S
10) Sovtek --- 5751
11) Sovtek --- 12AX7-WA
12) Sovtek --- 12AX7-WB

Any help / opinions about these tubes is welcomed, and any used tubes in decent shape offered up for sale to me at a fair price (send a PM to preserve the thread) will be considered.

I'm also considering a Herbie's "UltraSonic 9 Damping Instrument" to further smooth the tube out.

heiney9

Also look at GE/RCA/Sylvania. In most if not all instances these are outstanding tubes made side by side with the Brimar, Mullard and Telefunkens.

Siemens/Halske and Neuhaus/RFT are great as well.

I know DKG999 likes a particular RCA military designation with triple mica blackplates and clear tops. Bugle Boy and Amprex are another nice variant.

Dont limit yourself to just what you have listed

H9

inspiredsports

heiney9 wrote: »

Also look at GE/RCA/Sylvania. In most if not all instances these are outstanding tubes made side by side with the Brimar, Mullard and Telefunkens.

Siemens/Halske and Neuhaus/RFT are great as well.

I know DKG999 likes a particular RCA military designation with triple mica blackplates and clear tops. Bugle Boy and Amprex are another nice variant.

Dont limit yourself to just what you have listed

H9

Thanks! That was the "I've read enough to get myself in trouble" clause in my first post.

I'm definitely in the "I don't know what I don't know" phase and will open the list up so I don't miss out.

inspiredsports

Keiko wrote: »

There appears to be a "Tube Fever" epidemic going around CP lately.

Congrats on the new toy Greg. Still waiting on my Yaqin and I'm already eyeballing the Little Dot MKII and MKIII.

DamnThisHobby --- Yes, you all told me so at the start

There is simply not enough time and money in the universe to satisfy this addiction!!

Thank God for technology and "for sale" websites. There's a lot of decent stuff out there that gives you about 99.6% of what the $20,000 stuff gives you for $200 (and then you can resell it on the way up because you still crave that last .4%).

I think the wives/girlfriends/etc. who call us crazy pretty much hit the nail on the head!

dkg999

Not sure which tube phono-pre you have, however I have been experimenting with my Pro-Ject Tube Box II SE, which uses the 12ax7. The Sovtek LPS are definetely great tubes for a phone pre, and you will need to spend a lot more to do better. I have a pair of RCA clear tops here, and I like the Sovteks better. The Sovteks are just so quiet, and low microphonics (use Herbies tube dampeners to make sure!) and do what a phono pre should. I really think the more expensive tubes should go upstream in the pre-amp.

Other tubes to watch for are Sylvania triple-mica black plates (always a solid choice!), RCA Command Series, and CBS Hytrons. The Raytheon 12ax7's have been under-rated and overlooked, but now people have realized how good they are and they are getting expensive.

That's what's in my tube drawer!

dkg999

Keiko - that's probably one of those controversial subjects like cables! From what I know they simply dampen the glass of the tube so that it resonates at frequencies outside the normal range of music, thus making the tube quieter because the glass is not resonating. Can I hear a definite difference, not so much. Do I believe in the theory, yes I do. Do they look really cool, absolutely!

inspiredsports

dkg999 wrote: »

Not sure which tube phono-pre you have, however I have been experimenting with my Pro-Ject Tube Box II SE, which uses the 12ax7. The Sovtek LPS are definetely great tubes for a phone pre, and you will need to spend a lot more to do better. I have a pair of RCA clear tops here, and I like the Sovteks better. The Sovteks are just so quiet, and low microphonics (use Herbies tube dampeners to make sure!) and do what a phono pre should. I really think the more expensive tubes should go upstream in the pre-amp.

Other tubes to watch for are Sylvania triple-mica black plates (always a solid choice!), RCA Command Series, and CBS Hytrons. The Raytheon 12ax7's have been under-rated and overlooked, but now people have realized how good they are and they are getting expensive.

That's what's in my tube drawer!

I just saw a review where the writer selected a 1957 Sylvania 5751 Black Plates Triple Mica as his all time favorite. I'm glad I just need 1 because they go for about $150 (88% of what I paid for the preamp!)

I purchased a brand-new-in-the-box full warranty Bellari VP130 for $170 net delivered. It's not the best in the world, but gets a lot of exceptional reviews. It's a hybrid with a couple of solid state circuits.

The unit has been both shredded to pieces and compared favorably to $2,000 units, so it's one of those personal preference items where you have to listen for yourself. I like it a lot and will experiment with it until I've learned what the next rung on my ladder is.

dkg999

In my experience the 5751's sometimes don't have enough gain for a phono pre, but you have a hybrid tube/ss unit, so they might be a good choice.

inspiredsports

Keiko wrote: »

I know what a damper is, but how exactly do tube dampers help? Sorry for the newb question.

If I understand it correctly, tubes are rated for "musicality", "noise" and "microphonics". Musicality and noise are more or less "built in", where microphonics relates how much noise from the room hitting the glass "enters" the tube (like a microphone) and is output to the amp.

It seems you could liken the use of a tube damper to our use of Dynamat Extreme on the basket of a Polk driver in that both cancel out sound waves that create problems.

If you find a tube rated as being musical, with low noise, but having poor microphonics, a damper can help (Herbie's told me so )

inspiredsports

dkg999 wrote: »

In my experience the 5751's sometimes don't have enough gain for a phono pre, but you have a hybrid tube/ss unit, so they might be a good choice.

Right, The 5751's have the same pinouts, but typically much lower gain. The Jan Phillips 5751 I mentioned in post #1 is said to be in the same gain range as a typical 12AX7.

That sweet Sylvania I mentioned above in post #11 may not work well, but I've always erred on the side of learning by experimenting, and then reselling as the next idea comes along. (If I'd followed the status quo, I wouldn't have the sweetest sounding (and first set I know of) 1986 blade/blade SDA SRS 2's TL'd with RDO-198's by employing a simple capacitor substitution)

F1nut

5751 tubes have 30% less gain than 12AX7's. Because of that they are quieter and typically have less issues with microphones. The 1957 Sylvania 5751 triple mica/black plate is the best I've heard. Avoid the Sylvania gray plates with the green label.

SCompRacer

Mike, I just have a couple of things to add to what Doug said. Whether tube dampers help or not depends on the resonance your gear is subjected to. Gear between the speakers often gets subjected to more resonance than gear on a side wall. Crank up the volume and place your fingers on the panels of your gear, and you’ll know what I mean. That is why higher end gear is made with thicker panels and a sturdier chassis.

Also depends on any isolation tweaks that might be used. Some manufacturers mount the tube boards on a suspension system to avoid transmitting vibes into the board, but you still have airborne vibes. One of them try and see if it helps you or not things. Tube dampers helped me when my gear was between the speakers, but I haven’t noticed dampers helping or hurting with my gear off to the side wall.

inspiredsports

F1nut wrote: »

5751 tubes have 30% less gain than 12AX7's. Because of that they are quieter and typically have less issues with microphones. The 1957 Sylvania 5751 triple mica/black plate is the best I've heard. Avoid the Sylvania gray plates with the green label.

Thanks, it's good to hear I got on the right track on day number 1. I'm going to hunt down one of these 1957 Sylvania 5751's and give it a try. I'm guessing I'll be able to resell if it isn't robust enough, and I'm sure in for a treat if it is.

I've already tested advice from forum posts that suggest the Sovtek 12AX7LPS in this unit is happiest at the 75% output setting, and it sounds great and loud enough at that setting. I might be able to drive the Sylvania at 99% so make up some of the gain difference. What I don't know yet is if the limitation is from the Sovtek, or the electronics in the preamp.

inspiredsports

I received and installed a Herbies Tube Damper on Saturday and I've noticed a dramatic improvement in passages with a heavy drumbeat. The tube pre sits in a cabinet between my speakers where I've heard this is a problem, and the damper certainly smooths it out.

After about 130 hours I am absolutely impressed with the sound of this Bellari VP130 with its supplied Sovtek 12AX7LPS, and am actively shopping other tubes listed above now so I can let the tube rolling begin.

inspiredsports

It's been a long time comin'!

I know this is just a tiptoe in the right direction into tubing, but I swapped out the fair to middlin' Sovtek 12AX7LPS for a NOS Telefunken 12AX7.

I've gotten to know this little tube pre's sonic signature pretty well over the last 6 weeks to the point I figured I could appreciate what a decent tube could do.

I've just listed to an album side (Pink Floyd; Wish You Were Here- side 1) and I am stunned by the improvement.

inspiredsports

A big thanks to h9, mike, SComp for steering me toward other tubes and goodies than my original list contained, and thank you F1 and dkg for politely steering me away from the 5751 that probably would not have been potent enough.

I reinserted the Sovtek and let it warm up for about a half-hour while my 15 year old son pounded my glove with 80+ mph fastballs, and re-listened to side above. Eeeek!

I reinserted the Telefunken 12AX7 Smooth Plate Diamond for a 3rd trip through the side. The Telefunken is "lush / more musical" and the soundstage truly grew 3 feet closer to my 11' back listening position.

Lots of goodies are being introduced. I truly now can't wait until I get the new Yaquin CD-1 Tube Buffer (on order) and new Little Pinkie Power Supply (on order) for my newly acquired Musical Fidelity X-10v3 buffer. The buffer is located between pre and amp.

My Signal Cable 6' Magic Power Cable that will power whichever of the 2 buffers that wins the shootout also arrived today.

The sound is approaching nirvana. . . .well. at least this month's nirvana

george daniel

I was going to suggest the Tele smooth plates,, but I see that you have already found their magic--congrats.:)

inspiredsports

george daniel wrote: »

I was going to suggest the Tele smooth plates,, but I see that you have already found their magic--congrats.:)

Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut!

mmadden28

Keiko wrote: »

I know what a damper is, but how exactly do tube dampers help? Sorry for the newb question.

I asked a similar Tube Newb Damper question not too long ago (wait a minute that was a whole year ago-where the heck did a whole year go??? :eek: Ugh!!) Well anyway here it is:
https://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=933206

george daniel

inspiredsports wrote: »

Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut!

I am that squirrel;)

inspiredsports

george daniel wrote: »

I am that squirrel;)

That makes 2 of us!

I've got a funny feeling this is just the tip of the iceberg and that eventually I'll be heating my man cave with these addictive little glass contraptions.

inspiredsports

mmadden28 wrote: »

I asked a similar Tube Newb Damper question not too long ago (wait a minute that was a whole year ago-where the heck did a whole year go??? :eek: Ugh!!) Well anyway here it is:
https://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=933206

I've experimented with placement of the tube phono preamp with the original Sovtek tube and had better results with the Herbies tube damper installed in some instances.

In one case when my turntable and preamp were on a table at midrange driver height on the left wall on a 45 degree angle (3 feet left and three feet out the wall) heavy snare drums did cause audible problems when the damper was off.

inspiredsports

I always leave my solid state preamp and amp on, and I leave my turntable tube-based preamp on if I'm leaving the room for just an hour or so between listening sessions.

Today I came back after a half-hour or so and heard what sounded like I was in a commercial airliner cruising at 30,000', but just a bit more muffled than that.

I guess in the back of my mind I remembered reading something about that and I gently pushed down on the single exposed tube in the phono preamp and the sound went back to black.

What is this noise called?

Is the tube going bad?

inspiredsports

I guess that answers that.

The "Veil" we always talk about being lifted when we make a good upgrade got put back over this tube (Telefunken 12AX7 Smooth Plate Diamond) and then the left channel died.

I tried reseating with no luck, checked connections, connected another turntable, etc. with no luck.

I place the original Sovtek 12AX7LPS Ruby back in place and am enjoying some vintage Todd Rundgren as I write.

$53 bucks down the drain unless the eBay seller "nclayton" decides to help me out.

I guess "Air Travel Noise" generally means a tube crash is eminent ???

Big Dawg

Where exactly is the north coast? I may have an extra Amperex 12ax7 (same as a Bugle Boy)

inspiredsports

Big Dawg wrote: »

Where exactly is the north coast? I may have an extra Amperex 12ax7 (same as a Bugle Boy)

I just noticed this question as I set out to update my thoughts on the Bellari VP-130.

###############################################

I believe the term the "North Coast" was coined by Michael Stanley, of the Cleveland rock band "The Michael Stanley Band" which he formed in the early '70's. MSB recorded "North Coast" in 1992, but Michael had referred to northeastern Ohio as the "North Coast" for many years.

With almost all of our northern boundry touching the Great Lakes, the largest body of fresh water in the world, north coast is a fitting moniker!

###############################################

I've owned the Bellari VP-130 for 3 months now and listen to vinyl for up to 8 hours a day, 6 days a week so I've grown very familiar with it.

The unit is subject to volumes of praise, and almost equal volumes of criticism. The praise generally based upon subjective listening, and the criticism upon technical types poring over its supposed design flaws base upon studying a schematic.

I've always been mildly interested in specifications, but more inclined to "trust my ears".

The Bellari requires you work with it to learn what sounds best in your system, and some tube rolling too. I've listened to:

1) Sovtek 12AX7LPS; stock tube from factory
2) Tung-Sol 12AX7
3) Mullard 12AX7
4) Electro-Harmonix 12AX7
5) Telefunken Smooth Plate Diamond 12AX7
6) Amperex (Holland) Bugle Boy 12AX7

The Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7/ECC83 wins hands down with nice tight bass, a fluid midrange and wonderfully sweet highs. The Telefunken comes in second with great highs and lows, but less magic in the middle. After that the Mullard and Sovtek are tied as very well suited to this unit, and the other two are a bit harsher.

I experimented with various IC's from the Bellari to my pre-amp and found MIT Shotgun 2's set on their highest impedance setting (90 ohms & up) to sound best and that Silver IC's do not sound good from the Bellari to pre-amp in my rig.

The most important trick with this unit is to keep its "Output Level" dial set below 75%. Most of the time I set it between 50 and 60% where I deem it to sound best.

I have no idea why this is the case, but the sound clearly becomes grainy and more distorted when the output level is dialed up. Using it set between 50 and 60% yields sweet, detailed sound.

They jury was out at first, but this unit has earned a place on my rack for keeps.

P.S.: Big Dawg, I'd love to buy that Amperex as a spare if its for sale so please PM me.

inspiredsports

As some closing thoughts beyond the sweetness of the Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7 tube I'm enjoying, I did some further listening tests comparing turntables.

My top 3 turntables are all relatively highly modded Thorens TD160 BC Mk II's. I've cleaned, lubricated, polished, dynamatted, re-wired, replaced soundboards, selected parts, etc. and spent a long time getting the perfect motor pulley/belt match up for a perfect strobed 33-1/3 turns per minute on each.

One is fitted with a Grace 707 tonearm and Stanton 681 EEE MkIII cartridge, one with an Infinity Black Widow with Shure V15 Type IV cartridge, and one with an SME 3009 Series III tonearm with titanium arm-wand and silicone damping fluid tray with a Grado Reference Platinum woodbody. All of the styli are brand new or new old stock with a few hundred hours of break in.

The values go SME 3009, Infinity Black Widow, Grace 707 in 1,2,3 order with the corresponding cartridges valued in the same 1,2,3 order.

Here's the sad unvarnished truth. No matter how many experiments, tweaks, swaps, tricks I try, you can't make chicken salad out of chicken **** .

All three sound great, but the most expensive combo of the Grado with the SME always sounds best. The imaging, tone, depth and width of soundstage and overall musicality is best by a fairly wide margin.

I also have several other Thorens tables with stock various Thorens tonearms and a bevy of fairly decent cartridges, and while their sound is great, none come close to what the more expensive tonearms provide.

I've purchased most cartridge/styli new, but almost all of the other gear used, and some in distress that I had to put a lot of time into to restore, and time is money.

The older I get, the more I realize the old adage to be true; "you get what you pay for."

Big Dawg

inspiredsports wrote: »

I believe the term the "North Coast" was coined by Michael Stanley, of the Cleveland rock band "The Michael Stanley Band" which he formed in the early '70's. MSB recorded "North Coast" in 1992, but Michael had referred to northeastern Ohio as the "North Coast" for many years.

With almost all of our northern boundry touching the Great Lakes, the largest body of fresh water in the world, north coast is a fitting moniker!

.....................

P.S.: Big Dawg, I'd love to buy that Amperex as a spare if its for sale so please PM me.

i-sports,

I grew up in Cleveland in the 70s, and even kinda knew Michael Stanley's wife, who taught elementary school (my sister had her, I think). I've seen others use the term, so I was really asking if you were from the Cleveland area.

I hope that you're not a Browns fan (unfortunately I am).

As far as the 12ax7, it is an Amperex made in Holland in the same plant as Bugle Boys, but labled "The Fisher."

I bought a quad of these tubes for my preamp. It uses 3 in the linestage and 3 in the phono stage. I recently bought a TT (from Lightman, of all things) but haven't hooked it up yet. Three of the tubes I bought are making sweet sounds in the linestage, but the phono stage still has some less-than-wonderful Sovteks in it. So, I either need to buy more of these tubes, or get something different. If I get something different, then I'm happy to work something out with you, if you don't mind waiting for me to figure out what to do with it.

Dawg

inspiredsports

Big Dawg wrote: »

i-sports,

I grew up in Cleveland in the 70s, and even kinda knew Michael Stanley's wife, who taught elementary school (my sister had her, I think). I've seen others use the term, so I was really asking if you were from the Cleveland area.

I hope that you're not a Browns fan (unfortunately I am).

As far as the 12ax7, it is an Amperex made in Holland in the same plant as Bugle Boys, but labled "The Fisher."

I bought a quad of these tubes for my preamp. It uses 3 in the linestage and 3 in the phono stage. I recently bought a TT (from Lightman, of all things) but haven't hooked it up yet. Three of the tubes I bought are making sweet sounds in the linestage, but the phono stage still has some less-than-wonderful Sovteks in it. So, I either need to buy more of these tubes, or get something different. If I get something different, then I'm happy to work something out with you, if you don't mind waiting for me to figure out what to do with it.

Dawg

No problem. I love the Bugle Boy that I have and a spare at any point is icing on the cake.

I'm 20 miles south, but my office is on Rockside at 77. I'm a die-hard Browns/Cavs/Indians fan so life is typical midwest-tough as far as sporting events go

We cut school in 1976 to get to the Friday, October 22, 1976 first (of 3) Agora Ballroom shows early when MSB recorded Stagepass, and I think you can hear my girlfriend (now wife of 27 yrs) and I cheering at the end of several sets on the album! We've gotten to know Michael a bit over the years as he now plays (as The Resonators) at Tangier in Akron in front of a crowd of 250 for several nights each holiday season and we go every year. It's way different than when he sold out the (now leveled into a pasture) Richfield Colesium 5 nights in a row, selling 125,000 total tickets.

We had it good here when rock was at it peak, and I could have written the article at http://doclehman.wordpress.com/category/richfield-coliseum-rocked myself as I've seen almost every Colesium show mentioned!

My high school was less than 2 mikes away and we graduated, watched Jordan beat the Cavs, and listened to the best rock and roll the world had to offer in that building.