Any thoughts?

HBombToo

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2513623151&category=14987

Is this any good? Damn cheap IMO.

Bombed

gidrah

Good? I don't know. Cheap? Yes!

I'm not familiar with Pyle TTs; in fact I didn't realize they made them, but it seems to be a good deal.

Tour2ma

HBomb,
Nah... wouldn't go there. Can see it as tempting for a taste of vinyl, but could leave a bad taste IMO. TT's are best left to folk who make TT's above all else, not as an added line (I’m assuming these are the “Pyle Driver” folk, yes?). There are exceptions, but not that many (even a blind hog…). Plus what cartridge is included?
EDIT: Thought just hit me that there's probably a reason they are "blowing them out"... like they aren't selling because...

First, I'll just state that my TT biases are fully reflected below, and I guess for that matter above as well. And while there are other good performers out there, my experience lies with these manufacturers.
...Which comes first, the bias or the experience??? ...

Too many other quality, old TT's on ebay to choose from like these old German Duals:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3010999229&category=3284
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3011124231&category=3283
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3011872437&category=3283
Most offerings also include a used cartridge. OK for starters, but will likely want to replace the stylus, if not upgrade the whole thing, at some point in the near future.

Any of these could be a decent intro on the cheap, like $25 to $50 plus S&H. The 1200 series was pretty good up into the 1220's, beyond that they went downhill some. I'm the original owner of a 1229 and dearly love it. I also own a working 1242, it's OK, and available for $50 plus Shipping ($10 to $15) and has a nice Shure M91ED on it.

I also own a mid-line Thorens, the TD-320. Thorens is a great, old Swiss TT name IMO. There are always some of Thorens models on ebay as well, though generally they're more in the $100 area. A couple 160's and 165 Mk II's are there now.

If you buy used on ebay I'd be happy to look over the any ad’s for you and recommend a max bid. I can also supply packing guidelines to you. I always ask sellers their packing plan before I pay. Some know what they're doing, some don't. So far only one has arrived eff'd up, and it was Eff-minor due to an oversight I won’t repeat.

You'll likely want to go further later. I'm getting into the restoration of AR XA's. One of those would be a great 2nd step at about $150.

From there it's Katy-bar-the-door. I just nailed a mint Thorens 124 with a Shure SME 3009 tone arm, but at 15x the above entry cost. And you can still go up from there...

BTW what do you have in the way of a phono pre-amp?

Anyway let me know, here, via e-mail, whatever...

Only question I have is where will you put the damn thing? With those twin SVS's it'd better be about two houses down from you...

HBombToo

Tour thanks alot here for keeping me on the straight and narrow!

I'm not really in a hurry to add a TT which is very fortunate because I can take my time and educate myself. I would like to put together an entire system plan then start my purchases. I figure if I hit at least mid level with a clear upgrade path this could turn into a very enjoyable project. Plus after last nights rumble thread I know I'll have a tough time with the subs... I'll have to pay real close attention on the rack and platter settup. The technics 1200 series seem to have the lowest rumble spec that I have seen... around -78 dB or so? I'd like to keep SNR as low as possible but within reason and with the right amplification figures at low SNR's I believe I can nail down a system without breaking the bank. As far as pre-amp goes I'd hope to have a tube compliment from start to finish. I figure if I'm going to take the leap into analog I should really punish myself! Suggestions in this are are also welcomed because I am the clueless Nomad gropeing in the dark.

I have tried to apply snr values from start to finish but it is often very difficult to get specs on used equipment. perhaps this is a mistake and I need more guidence on what is truely important.

Anywho... I think you see where I'm at over here? LOST!

HBomb

Tour2ma

No prob's HB... just an area where being an old **** pays off ...
But man, now you’re sending me to my Manuals' files.

IMO key table spec’s are:…………TD-320……………1229
Rumble (S/N) ratio weighted …………>72…………….>72
and unweighted (db)……………………….>52
Wow and Flutter (%)………………….<0.035
(speed consistency of drive)

Key tone arm spec’s are:
Effective mass (gm) lower is better….7.5
Lateral Tracking error (Degrees)…..<0.18………….<0.3
Cable Impedance (pF)……………………….100

There are other spec's, but these are the essentials. The Dual had very few spec's in their manual. I honestly think the old AR blows both of these away in the rumble category, but the only spec in their manual is the cable impedance (135 pF). But as in the case of amps, TT spec's were a maze until some standards were set and enforced. Don't believe these were in place in the days of my Dual and AR, but definitely were in '86 when I bought my Thorens.

Factors that go into rumble are platter weight (heavier is generally better, both the above weigh in at ~3.1 kg or 7 lbs) and the degree to which the motor is isolated from the platter. Direct drives (motor centered under the platter with its shaft serving as the record spindle) are usually noisier. The Thorens and AR are belt, i.e. rubber band, drive while the Dual uses a rubber wheel that contacts the inner side of the platter’s rim. But all TT’s require bearings for the platter’s center post, so the design, and condition, of these bearings is also a factor. A good bit of rumble can also come through the tone arm from its pivot. So the pivot's isolation from the motor, or vice versa, is key as well. Most TT’s use rubber bushings to isolate the motor at its mounts. The AR isolated the platter and tone arm with a common sub-chassis suspension (that Thorens either copied or simultaneously developed for some of its models, depending on who you talk to).

Wow and Flutter is primarily a function of the consistency of the motor speed. Here more “poles” are generally better. The Thorens is a 16; the Dual is a 12. Platter weight is also a factor as heavier means more momentum which can translate into steadier speed.

Assuming the pivot point and headshell angle are optimized, tracking error simply becomes function of effective tone arm length (pivot point to stylus tip). The longer the arm is, the shallower its arc is as it tracks an album form start to finish (an infinitely long arm would be perfectly linear in its tracking, but they’re not too practical :rolleyes: ). The Thorens is 9-1/4” while the Dual is just under 9”. The AR is just over 10”, so its error should actually be lower than the other two. The classic Shure SME tone arms are 12" and they even made a 16" model. More length seems logical to reduce tracking error, but of course mass increases with length so there is a trade off.

In summary more poles, no direct drive, heavy platter and long tone arms with low mass are things to look for. Simple ain’t it???

Tubes… can’t help there… Hey I’m not THAT old . Groping my way in that direction along with you. The little amp kit Jstas built is very intriguing. The Dynaco ST-70 is a virtual legend, but so many are so heavily modified so you can’t be sure what you’re getting. But I won a tube tester the other day so “damn the torpedoes…”.

HBombToo

This is GREAT! I have printed it off and it goes into my note book. Slow but sure with much help I think I can get there.

Your time here is really appreciated.

HBomb

Tour2ma

Once again you are welcome... but there's still those SVS's to contend with... Probably will have to ship them to me ...

My electronics are in a completely separate room so they might be able to take the thunder...

But I would send an AR TT your way as compensation, afterall it would be the decent thing to do....

HBombToo

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Once again you are welcome... but there's still those SVS's to contend with... Probably will have to ship them to me ...

My electronics are in a completely separate room so they might be able to take the thunder...

But I would send an AR TT your way as compensation, afterall it would be the decent thing to do....

Funny stuff! but on the other hand when I'm ready to start spending if you want to sell a spare TT let me know. Id rather buy from a polk buddy rather than the ebay abyss.

You are right though about jstas's project... very interesting! I hope the Russman jumps in so I have that much more info to follow.

HBomb

Tour2ma

Fair enough... You got dibs on my second restoration. TroyD's got the first... and don't worry, they'll be a while...

And since you've displayed the appropriate reluctance to part with your SVS's for the purity of vinyl (Dammit) here's the straight skinny... The SVS's won't be that big a deal. Vinyl is not going to produce anything significant below 20 Hz and it'll be rolling it's **** off before it even gets there unless you boost it with an EQ. At least so long as you avoid coupling the TT to a "sounding board" as our vinyl vs. bass friend did, it'll be OK.

Your Denon (?) AVR has a phono stage, correct? No matter, we'll address that later, too. That reminds me I gotta see if har's pulled the trigger yet on his phono pre- purchase....

HBombToo

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Fair enough... You got dibs on my second restoration. TroyD's got the first... and don't worry, they'll be a while...

You got a DEAL!

I'll patiently be waiting.

HBomb

Frank Z

Hbomb,
This is the turntable I just bought, might be what you're looking for.

http://www.musichallaudio.com/products/products.asp?lookup=mmf%202.1

HBombToo

Frank I saw that TT and didn't know what to think... I'm over loaded over here! How does it sould? Did you do a review that I missed?

Thanks
HBomb

Frank Z

A brief one only.

http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8332

Tour2ma

Henry,

Hope you're still tuned into this thread, cause your search is over Bro...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=3013116569

See, the French do have something to offer...

HBombToo

That TT does have a major cool factor but could never make it through the WAF Filter. She would have a stroke!

HBomb