A weak point on RTI6 (or RTIa)
SivaNevets
Posts: 303
These are the best speakers ive owned. im very very happy with them however i hear a weak point for lower frequency male vocal. i feel something is missing. the mid vocal range to high or females r terrific though.
is this a weakness of the speaker RTI6 (RTIa3) or my setup?
Denon AVR 789, 2 channel direct out (input: Emu-0404 USB via mini to 2x RCA cable)
close range monitor (2 ft) on my computer desk.
if not the setup, i figure the A5s can handle this much better since it has 2 mid range drivers.
is this a weakness of the speaker RTI6 (RTIa3) or my setup?
Denon AVR 789, 2 channel direct out (input: Emu-0404 USB via mini to 2x RCA cable)
close range monitor (2 ft) on my computer desk.
if not the setup, i figure the A5s can handle this much better since it has 2 mid range drivers.
Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU
Post edited by SivaNevets on
Comments
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I had a similiar expereince with my RTi8s and tried using a sub to help with music which I struggled with.
I was using a Denon 2808 AVR.
I added a Carver TFM-25 which did help but ultimately went to SDA-1Cs and never use the sub in 2 channel.Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs -
that sounds very discouraging for upgrading since im not getting the SDAs ... how about the A7 (RTI10s)?Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
"Vocal range in terms of frequency
In terms of frequency, human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together."
i see men do go pretty low...
Spec for A7
Crossover
(mid-high array) 2.7kHz, 12dB/octave low and high pass. 125Hz 12dB/octave high pass
Crossover
(subwoofer) 125Hz, 12dB/octave low pass
Specs for A5
Crossover 2.2kHz, 12dB/Oct Low Pass, 18dB/Octave High Pass
what does this crossover thing means?
Since what I heard missing is the vocal bass, i assume A7 will perform superior to A5?Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
It very well could be your setup and/or your recordings. Pretty much any speaker is sensitive to what's feeding it. I listened to the A3 here for a couple of weeks and never felt it had a problem with male vocals. My objections, which weren't strong was on how it's voiced. I felt it was a tad too edgy and forward. That said, some prefer that sound.SivaNevets wrote: »These are the best speakers ive owned. im very very happy with them however i hear a weak point for lower frequency male vocal. i feel something is missing. the mid vocal range to high or females r terrific though.
is this a weakness of the speaker RTI6 (RTIa3) or my setup?
Denon AVR 789, 2 channel direct out (input: Emu-0404 USB via mini to 2x RCA cable)
close range monitor (2 ft) on my computer desk.
if not the setup, i figure the A5s can handle this much better since it has 2 mid range drivers.
Combo rig:
Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
PB13Ultra RO
BW Silvers
Oppo BDP-83SE -
The caps & resistors.Living Room:....................[HTML] [/HTML] Zone 2 (Workout Room):
AVR - Yamaha RX-V757......JBL 4312 Pro Monitors
Pre - Nak CA-5
AMP - Adcom 555 (Main)
Main - Polk RTI8**/RTiA5
AMP - Adcom 545II (Center)
Center - Polk CSiA4**
Sub - Snell Basis 300:p......Zone 3 (Outside)
CD - Yamaha CDC-555.......Def Tech AW5500
TV - Pani TH-42PZ80U
BR - LG BD390
Monster HTS1600 Power Center
Dedicated Circuit - (2) 20amp, (1) 15amp
Ben's IC, Canare 4S11
**Dayton and Sonicap Caps with Mills Resistors** -
It more than likely is placement how much room do they have behind them?The caps & resistors.
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I have RTi4s, RTi6s, and RTi10s on various setups and the 4s and 6s are the only ones to suffer from this problem.KEF Q150 | Rythmik F12 | Yamaha Aventage RX-A780
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SivaNevets wrote: »
"Vocal range in terms of frequency
In terms of frequency, human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together."
i see men do go pretty low...
Spec for A7
Crossover
(mid-high array) 2.7kHz, 12dB/octave low and high pass. 125Hz 12dB/octave high pass
Crossover
(subwoofer) 125Hz, 12dB/octave low pass
Specs for A5
Crossover 2.2kHz, 12dB/Oct Low Pass, 18dB/Octave High Pass
what does this crossover thing means?
Since what I heard missing is the vocal bass, i assume A7 will perform superior to A5?
This is a very interesting graph, every sound here is between 20Hz and 4.4kHz
so what sounds go from 4.4KHz to 30KHz?Current HT setup
Mains: B&W 804s
Center: Polk CSi5
Surround: Polk FXi3
Sub: Velodyne DLS-3750R
Receiver: Pioneer SC-07
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA5200
TV: Sony KDS60A2020
DBP: Sony DBP-S350
CDP: Pioneer DV-48AV
Interconnect cables: SignalCable analog II
speaker cables: SignalCable Ultra Speaker Cables Bi-wire -
based on the replys, seem to me all RTI4/6/8 have the similar problem but RTI10 doesnt.
I audited RTIa5 and 7 from futureshop, they powered by Yamaha 6230 (or 50 cant remember) with a cheap DVD player. the background is fairly noisy, they all sound horrible, A5 is too bright, A7 sound very muddy, voice faded in too much. so i couldnt tell much, but A5 won by a large margin the mid range is very clear.
but its really hard for me to judge since i think the setup is very bad and A7 sound clearly underpowered.
im very interested on how are the drivers for A5 (3 drivers) and A7 (4 drivers) corresponding to the frequency response?Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
bump.
Questions unsolved: What frequency does the 2x7 inch woofer on A7 taking care of (highest frequency)?
audited both @futureshop, i feel the A7 clearly underpowered by Yamaha 6150 @ low - moderate volume, even A5 as more punchy bass than A7 (weird).Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
SivaNevets wrote: »Questions unsolved: What frequency does the 2x7 inch woofer on A7 taking care of (highest frequency)?..
According to the specs here, they are crossed over at 125 Hz. -
VSchneider wrote: »According to the specs here, they are crossed over at 125 Hz.
thx..so its safe to assume the lower end of male vocal is somewhere between 80~150hz (C3 +-). and A7 should help to solve the weakness I audited from RTI6 (RTIa3)Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
bump again for attention
everything else on my RTI6 is fantasticFront: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
RTi's and music go together like peanut butter and tuna...
That is to say...not good.
I have RTi's for my HT setup...but I can't stand them for music. Get yourself some LSi's, or SDA's. The vintage Monitors are excellent as well.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
comfortablycurt wrote: »RTi's and music go together like peanut butter and tuna...
That is to say...not good.
I have RTi's for my HT setup...but I can't stand them for music. Get yourself some LSi's, or SDA's. The vintage Monitors are excellent as well.
Just make me a peanut butter and tuna sandwich.. HUMMY!!!!!! -
comfortablycurt wrote: »RTi's and music go together like peanut butter and tuna...
That is to say...not good.
I have RTi's for my HT setup...but I can't stand them for music. Get yourself some LSi's, or SDA's. The vintage Monitors are excellent as well.
1k solution for front 3 that can pushed well by denon 789?:(:( Front: Martinlogan ESL
Center: Martinlogan Stage
Rear: Martinlogan Motion 4
Sub: Martinlogan Grotto-I
Receiver: Pioneer Elite SC 1523K
PC 2 Channel: Polk LSI7
Headset: Grado RS2 + Grado RA1 amp
Mic: Neumann KMS605
Car Audio
2002 MB C240 Sedan
MM6501 components
MM840 sub
MB Quart Onyx 4.60 (1/2 to components, 3/4 bridged to sub)
Pioneer 8200BT HU -
Of course, my tastes aren't everyones tastes. Some people love their RTi's for music.
FWIW, I found my RTi6's to have a bit of an edge on my RTi8's for musicality. They don't have quite as much low end dig...but they image a lot better.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Of course, my tastes aren't everyones tastes. Some people love their RTi's for music.
FWIW, I found my RTi6's to have a bit of an edge on my RTi8's for musicality. They don't have quite as much low end dig...but they image a lot better.
Ditto. I have the 6 and 8's. The 6 has a 12db slope HP and LP and crosses at 2.8Khz. The 8 has a sharper 18db slope on the HP,12db LP and a lower 2.2Khz cross.
I seem to like 12DB or smaller XO slopes for music..
The 6's are modded also. BTW. Shouldn't make a big difference as new as they are though.
Paul
