A9 + receiver vs A5 + receiver? (or maybe A7)

SivaNevets

Since my receiver Denon AVR 789 has no pre-outs i gave up my upgrade plan on RTIa9 leaning towards the A5s. Then virgil turns to me says his RTI12 works fantastic on his HK AVR 230.

is this true or is he just a noob

without considering the cost, how much will A9 sound better than A5 with a small sub in a mid sized living room, with about half volume?

cnh

That's a very subjective question SivaNevets. Sure the A9s are going to sound a lot better....deeper low end, greater power handling, better hi-mid array (tones down that RTI-A tweeter if that means anything to you?). Personally I find the A9s a bit more 'musical' than the lower models and less harsh on 'highs'. And they can handle tons of power.

Can you power RTI-12s with an H/K, yes...but they won't really Open up for you with that level of wattage! They're capable of a lot more...although they will sound OK. The good thing about H/K 200s is that they have pre-outs so you're good for external amps and they have a nice 'warm' sound to them which the RTI-As benefit from!

The A9s are my favorite of that series. I run M70s which "I" prefer to the A5s or Rti-8s because the tweeter is more laid back! I find the, supposedly, lower flagship M, more musical than the lower level RTIs...but that's just me. I don't like a more forward or brighter tweeter even if it has a tad more detail like the RTIs do?

cnh

leroyjr1

RTI a5's in a mid size room with a sub is a good choice. Both are great speakers and you'll be happy with either one. If you don't plan on upgrading your receiver anytime soon then go with the rti a5's. Sounds great and very easy to push.

SivaNevets

thx guys, i currently using my RTi6 powered from my 8 inch klipsch 200w sub (class D amplifier). im very very hapy with my RTi6, specially love the tweeter, i dont find it too bright maybe because i suffer moderate hearing loss( less sensitive to high frequency than average people) and my last Klipsch RSX-3 satelite has poor highs. Im very curious at how A9's lows sound compare to a sub? Theres no way I can try the 9s since no stores carry them in Toronto.
ok now seem to me even with a low power receiver (90 wpc) the underpowered a9s will still sound better than a5s + sub at low~mid volume?

Dawgfish

I owned a Denon AVR-789 and had a pair of RTi-8s as my front mains along with two subs and it sounded fantastic! I would have stayed with that setup, but I found a good deal on a set of RTi-10s and later a set of RTi-12s and felt the need to run external amps to get the most out of them, so I needed a reciever with preamps. I'm getting off track here, but knowiong what I know now, if I were building a home theater system using a reciever, speakers, and powered sub(s) with no external amp, I don't think you could do much better with the AVR-789 and RTI i-8 or RTi-A5 combo (as long as you run a sub).

kevhed72

If you like rock music, go with the A9s. Last night I listened to the "Black Market" Clash LP for the first time and was blown away...

SivaNevets

forgot to mention i use speakers equally for music, HT and gaming. My priority is for music though. I listen to classical piano and pop mainly, and some rock (i love rock but dont listen to them that much anymore, mainly early 90s rock).
my plan for upgrading next year would be around $1~1.5k CDN, if I gets the A5 now thats probably it for my HT. if i get the 9s, i can always upgrade my receiver and add an amp for next next next year:D

wish i can compare them on receiver. just read an review for RTi12 from this forum seems the guy likes it with Denon 3xxx receiver, of course better with an amp.

Dawgfish

I can tell you from expereince that you can push the A9s (RTi-12s in my case) with an AVR, but you will not be getting anywhere near their full potential. If music is your priority, I would definitely lean towards the A9s and an AVR with preouts so you can add an external 2 or 3 channel amp later on when you can afford it to get the most out of the A9s.

Another option would be one that I just recently have done myself. You can keep your current AVR 789 and A5 setup for gaming and home theater, and build a seperate two channel music system. I have built a relatively inexpensive two channel system using a set of vintage RTA-12Bs (they sound fantastic btw, but I'm eventually going to replace them with some SDA-1Cs), a Parasound preamp, Adcom GFA-555 amp, Denon DCM-390 cd player (probably will upgrade to higher quality unit, even though it sounds great with its Burr-brown DACs), and Technics SL-1200 MK2 turntabel with Denon DL-160 cartridge. I bought all of these components used and payed approximately $1500 for the whole set-up including interconnects and speaker cables. This set-up sounds way better for music than any AVR used as pro/amp combo I've heard. The A9s are quality speakers, but they don't hold a candle for pure music ability compared to the RTA-12Bs (or most vintage monitors), or SDAs. If music performance is truly what you are looking at, than this would be the direction I would head in.

P.S. You could also incorporate a music preamp and vintage polk speakers into your home theater system provided you get an AVR with preouts, a seperate amp, and a preamp with home theater by-pass if you don't have the room for a seperate set-up. Just something else to consider.

SivaNevets

doh.. thats way too much for me now... i think ill probably stop after get the amps for the A9s. maybe bookshelf for 2 channel on my computer later.
thx dawgfish

Dawgfish

That's not a bad way to go at all. This was the rout I took myself when I purchased my RTi-12s. You'll enjoy those A9s with a good quality amp. If you decide you want to upgrade your music performance, you can always add a preamp with hometheater by-pass in the future. What AVRs with preouts are you considering btw?

SivaNevets

i just bought the avr789 for $499 cad right before 790 came out (they r the same)
to be honest, i havent plugin my avr yet, im moving to a new place in september, will set everything up by then.
i got everything for HT within last 2 weeks (check my signature) i was lucky they all went for sale 1by 1. my budget is very tight (students on summer job).
i plugin my RTI6s into klipsch iFi sub (class D amp 200w crossover 160hz cant adjust) and very happy already. i think ill enjoy my new setup for a long time (i enjoyed my Klispch iFi for 3 yrs). after next summer saving, i would have the money just for a pair of A9 (was thinking A5) when theres a deal - no new avr, no new amp - thoese will be my next step if i gets A9, if i gets A5 ill stop from there for HT.
so i dont know which receiver ill get because i wont get them for at least another 2 yrs, if u ask me now, i would want a refurbished Denon AVR 989 and an affordable 2 channel amp (Emotiva as so many ppl mentioned), it may change if theres signifcant new techonology (like audyssey) then i may go for a new model avr.
so yes, if i get the A9s, they will stay with my avr 789 for at least 1 yr thats why i want make sure its worth to get compare to a5, becasue they r a lot more expensive.

Dawgfish

Honestly having owned the AVR 789 and both the RTi12s and RTi8s (essentially the same as the A9s and A5s with minor revisions), if I were going to be using the avr to push the speakers for a year or so, I would strongly lean towards the A5s especially since you already own a sub. I tried pushing my RTi-12s with an Onyo 806 also, which has a stouter amplifeir section than the AVR-789 (even though I prefered the 789s sound) and it couldn't push the RT1-12s the way I would like either. Those speakers really don't even start to wake up until you get at least 200 watts of good clean external amp power on them. 400 watts per channel is even better with these bad boys!

I think you would really be getting more out of your current system with the AVR-789 pushing the A5s, especially since you have a sub. The A5s have great mids and highs, they just lack in low end response, which is where the subs come in. The A9s are a much fuller range speaker with nice tight bass (there bass with 400 watts per channel or more is amazing), and they would be a better choice for music, but only if they are being properly driven. You will get a lot more out of your currrent system (without adding an amp) with the A5s.

Lib0rat0r

I just picked up a Pioneer SC-05 and am using it to push my RTi12s, CSi5 center, and RTi6 surrounds. Definitely solid performance for the size of my room now...but I'll be moving in a year to a bigger place, and that is when I'll buy an amp (most likely Emotiva) to really get those babies to sing.

I was going to go with something lower, but once those SC-05s went on clearance...I couldn't walk away from that kind of a deal. An $1800 receiver for $700? Had to get it.

Siva, check your PMs for a little help with the A9s

SivaNevets

haha ur guys's info r too helpful, im even more confused but i still have more than a year to decide.
i dont have a sub right now, most likely grabing the psw111 tomorrow after i get my paycheck ($249 cdn before tax).
a5s r easy to get in toronto, futureshop has them on sale once or twice a year for really cheap. but i bet the a9bugs will bite me and i may still want to get the a9s in the future, what i do with my a5s then? i dont think i really want a 7 ch set up lol
if i save for the a9s next yr (shipped from us), they will be underpowered with my for a year or two, but the bottom line is they wont performe worse than a5s right?
haha i really dont know. btw thx for the pm liborator

Dawgfish

SivaNevets wrote: »

haha ur guys's info r too helpful, im even more confused but i still have more than a year to decide.
i dont have a sub right now, most likely grabing the psw111 tomorrow after i get my paycheck ($249 cdn before tax).
a5s r easy to get in toronto, futureshop has them on sale once or twice a year for really cheap. but i bet the a9bugs will bite me and i may still want to get the a9s in the future, what i do with my a5s then? i dont think i really want a 7 ch set up lol
if i save for the a9s next yr (shipped from us), they will be underpowered with my for a year or two, but the bottom line is they wont performe worse than a5s right?
haha i really dont know. btw thx for the pm liborator

Actually this is what I am getting at. Of course a lot of people will argue otherwise and it also depends on what kind of volumes you listen to your system at, but it was my experience that the RTI-8s in conjunction with sub(s) DID perform better than the RTI-12s being pushed off of the AVR-789. One caveat of this is my system is setup in a large room with high vaulted ceilings and I like things a little on the loud side. In these conditions, the AVR-789 (or Onyo 806) for that matter, simply didn't have the muscle to push the 12s to a satisfactory level. It did have the muscle to power the RTI-8s to my satisfaction though. In fact it sounded great. Believe me, those RTI-8s (or A5s) sound fantastic as surrounds or back surrounds if you decide to buy the A9s in the future.

Your right, you'll probably have upgraditis just like the rest of us and eventually want the A9s. The A9s when properly driven are far superior to the A5s, but you'll get a lot more enjoyment over that year or two with the A5s being driven with the AVR-789. Maybe it's just me, but a year or two is a long time to not be getting the most out of your system and those A9s are definitely not going to give you their best performance without proper power. IMHO the A5s will sound better with this setup until you can get a proper amplifier for the A9s. I've been there on this one. Just my dos centavos.

SivaNevets

Dawgfish,
how do you describe the RTI12s at low volume with AVR vs external amp?
im thinking of returning the Denon AVR 789 and get a Harmon AVR 254. but seem theres a lot issues with this model plus no audyssey.

Dawgfish

The A9 will sound fine at low volumes with the AVR-789. It's when you try to crank it up to moderate to moderate loud volumes is where you quickly wish you had more power. The sensation I got with my RTI-12s and an avr without an amp is I just kept feeding it more power and it never got very loud. Also the bass, soundstage, and seperation was not really defined well at all. After adding an external amp, the RTI-12s gained better bass response, a wider soundstage, better imaging, and where just more detailed in general, even at lower volumes.

I too have heard of problems with the HK 254. They are a good sounding reciever however, and they do have preouts to add an external amp later. Another AVR with preouts to look for in that price range is the Yamaha V-663. Yamaha has recently added a replacement to the 663, so I bet you can get find them for pretty good deals right now. I've heard a lot of great things about the Pioneer AVRs, but other than the Elite SC 05 and SC 07 (which are awesome btw), I have not heard any of them. It sounds like the 05 could be found at some pretty good deals as Liborator has mentioned. Others more familiar with the Pioneers will chime in I'm shure. You can probably find a good deal also on an Onkyo-706 with Onkyo realising the new 707s. They are the lowest model Onyo with pre-outs. It's a decent all around AVR, but lacks the musicality of some of the other AVRS (as I have found the case to be with my 806).

I am running a Denon AVR-2809 and using it as a preamp as I have gone to all external amplification. Unfortunately this is the lowest model Denon with pre-outs and Denon is discontinuing this model to replace it with the AVR-3310 with an even higher price tag. I love my 2809 with it's great sound and features, so it's ashamed to me that Denon keeps on placing their AVRS with preouts further out of reach to the average consumer.

renowilliams

SivaNevets wrote: »

haha ur guys's info r too helpful, im even more confused but i still have more than a year to decide.
i dont have a sub right now, most likely grabing the psw111 tomorrow after i get my paycheck ($249 cdn before tax).
a5s r easy to get in toronto, futureshop has them on sale once or twice a year for really cheap. but i bet the a9bugs will bite me and i may still want to get the a9s in the future, what i do with my a5s then? i dont think i really want a 7 ch set up lol
if i save for the a9s next yr (shipped from us), they will be underpowered with my for a year or two, but the bottom line is they wont performe worse than a5s right?
haha i really dont know. btw thx for the pm liborator

I have the A5's for fronts and rti6's for rears and a psw 125 sub and have been very happy with the overall performance, particularily for H/T. Eventually I will be purchasing a two channel set up as well as a power amp. For now this set up is great. BTW don't forget to get a nice center channel when you have the money.
I also live in canada and Future shop, for a long time just had 1 RTIA9 (in cherry)at their warehouse. Recently I noticed it was gone from the site. Not sure whether they will be getting more.


Tim

cnh

Dawgfish wrote: »

The A9 will sound fine at low volumes with the AVR-789. It's when you try to crank it up to moderate to moderate loud volumes is where you quickly wish you had more power. The sensation I got with my RTI-12s and an avr without an amp is I just kept feeding it more power and it never got very loud. Also the bass, soundstage, and seperation was not really defined well at all. After adding an external amp, the RTI-12s gained better bass response, a wider soundstage, better imaging, and where just more detailed in general, even at lower volumes.

I too have heard of problems with the HK 254. They are a good sounding reciever however, and they do have preouts to add an external amp later. Another AVR with preouts to look for in that price range is the Yamaha V-663. Yamaha has recently added a replacement to the 663, so I bet you can get find them for pretty good deals right now. I've heard a lot of great things about the Pioneer AVRs, but other than the Elite SC 05 and SC 07 (which are awesome btw), I have not heard any of them. It sounds like the 05 could be found at some pretty good deals as Liborator has mentioned. Others more familiar with the Pioneers will chime in I'm shure. You can probably find a good deal also on an Onkyo-706 with Onkyo realising the new 707s. They are the lowest model Onyo with pre-outs. It's a decent all around AVR, but lacks the musicality of some of the other AVRS (as I have found the case to be with my 806).

I am running a Denon AVR-2809 and using it as a preamp as I have gone to all external amplification. Unfortunately this is the lowest model Denon with pre-outs and Denon is discontinuing this model to replace it with the AVR-3310 with an even higher price tag. I love my 2809 with it's great sound and features, so it's ashamed to me that Denon keeps on placing their AVRS with preouts further out of reach to the average consumer.

Dawgfish.

I have to concur. I don't know what Denon is 'thinking' but they're not thinking AUDIO....I noticed the same thing in the new models. 2800 out, 3800 out....3310 with a even higher price tag than the 280x for pre-s?

I have, as you know, among other AVRs, a 2807 which I use as a pre/pro...and am pretty happy with it as a pre. It is a shame!

cnh

Dawgfish

Cnh,

It is a shame. With todays economy and all, you would think that Denon would put more emphasis on making their lower mid to mid level avrs more value packed by including preouts. It's unexcusable to me that any avr could cost near $1000 and not have preouts. Like you, I love my 2800 series Denon reciever as a preamp, but when it comes time to replace it, I think I'm strongly going to have to look at the Pioneer Elites, Rotels, Marantz's and NADS of fthe world before the most current series of Denons with preouts. Who knows the new **7 series of Onkyo recievers may be more musical than their **6 predecessors and deserve a serious look also. Oh why did OnKyo leave out the Burr Brown DACs and beefier amp of the 805 in the 806? What are these companies thinking these days?

apphd

Dawgfish wrote: »

Cnh,

It is a shame. ..... Oh why did OnKyo leave out the Burr Brown DACs and beefier amp of the 805 in the 806? What are these companies thinking these days?

Bottom line... profit.

SivaNevets

while technology is moving forward, many audio equipment is going backward specially the portable ones. from CD walkman->MD->mp3, sound quality is compromised. i coundnt find any mp3 with decent output power, support ape/flac format and with a decent dac/codec.

eswaroop

Hi,

I noticed that you (renowilliams) have a pioneer 49Txi - I just bought one used and am finding that its a tad skimpy on bass response on my RF-3's

My 99$ onkyo TX8511 seems to do a better job on the bass!

I just have a stereo setup with the two RF-3's. I know a subwoofer will probably fix the issue, but how come the 2000$ receiver is underperforming?

Any thoughts?

-Ram

renowilliams wrote: »

I have the A5's for fronts and rti6's for rears and a psw 125 sub and have been very happy with the overall performance, particularily for H/T. Eventually I will be purchasing a two channel set up as well as a power amp. For now this set up is great. BTW don't forget to get a nice center channel when you have the money.
I also live in canada and Future shop, for a long time just had 1 RTIA9 (in cherry)at their warehouse. Recently I noticed it was gone from the site. Not sure whether they will be getting more.


Tim

renowilliams

eswaroop wrote: »

Hi,

I noticed that you (renowilliams) have a pioneer 49Txi - I just bought one used and am finding that its a tad skimpy on bass response on my RF-3's

My 99$ onkyo TX8511 seems to do a better job on the bass!

I just have a stereo setup with the two RF-3's. I know a subwoofer will probably fix the issue, but how come the 2000$ receiver is underperforming?

Any thoughts?

-Ram

PS. Here is a link to a review done on the reciever when new. Not sure if you paid $2,000 for yours or what but this reciever had a MSRP of $4,500 USD when new.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/avreceivers/55/index.html

Your RF-3's have a frequency response of 37 hz to 20 khz which are similar to my RTI A5's on the low end. I have a sub set up but if you don't then you will need to set the reciever to send the LFE signals to your front speakers. you do this by setting your front speakers to large in the speaker systems. This imformation can be found on page 41 of the manual.


As far as this reciever under performing, I have never had that feeling.


Hope this was helpful



Tim

danz1906

leroyjr1 wrote: »

RTI a5's in a mid size room with a sub is a good choice. Both are great speakers and you'll be happy with either one. If you don't plan on upgrading your receiver anytime soon then go with the rti a5's. Sounds great and very easy to push.

Agreed, I use to have the A5s with a sub for music and it worked fine.
The A5s are easy to drive with a Receiver.