Tube Guru's

heiney9
heiney9 Posts: 25,165
edited July 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
KT88 or EL34?

Single ended class A or push/pull config.

Please discuss.

Looking to add a full tube integrated to my office rig. Running Polk 5B's in a typical smaller room.

I have my eye on a couple middle priced units and one uses KT88's for output tubes and can be run in triode or pentode configuration

The other uses EL34's for output tubes and is single ended Class A run in ultralinear.

Need some input about these 2 types of tube amps.

Thanks--H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    2 completely different sounds. I like both but some will swear by the KT's and others favor the EL's. Its your ears that make the choice.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    I'm a triode only snob.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    Triode all the way here also..




    What amps are looking at?










    Nik
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    Perhaps you could give a general sound and some descriptive reasons you prefer one over the other. I know it's subjective, but I'd just like to hear some thoughts and opinions to help make a decision.

    One amp is and ASL MGSi15dt, the other is a Chinese variant sold here in the states.

    Thanks

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    I've read that it depends on the amp and speakers, but to me triode sounds better all around. Smoother, more weight, etc...
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    For me the EL 34's in a p/p config give a little more warmth/bloom in the mid-range,, that classic sound that I grew up with,,my limites experience with KT 88's,,a little better detail,but lack the warmth/bloom.Just what my old ears tell me.YMMV.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    I hate too in fear of sounding stupid.

    But with my limited experience.


    I found that Triode was much much more refined sounding than UL. Separation seemed better. Instruments sounded closer to the real thing. And the music seemed more emotionally moving. With a super black back ground. I think the latter might have something do with lower power ratings of Triode amps???

    The only thing left to be desired was. Most won't rock out unless you have very high efficiency speakers. But the trade off of power for SQ was well worth it IMO.




    Nick
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,901
    edited July 2009
    check this out , if i needed one i would jump all over this.
    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1251503471&/Tad-60-Tube-Amplifier-superb-c
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
    Preamp: deHavilland Ultraverve 3
    Dac: Sonnet Morpheus 2, Musical Paradise mp-d2 mkIII
    Transport: Jay's Audio CDT2 mk2, Lumin U1 mini
    Speakers: Rosso Fiorentino Volterra II
    Speaker Cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Organic Audio Organic Reference 2
    Interconnects: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2, Argento Organic Reference 2, Argento Organic 2
    Power Cables: Argento Organic Reference, Synergistic Research Foundation 10 and 12 ga.
    Digital cables: Crystal Clear Magnum Opus 2 bnc, Tellurium Q aes, Silnote Audio Poseidon Signature 2 bnc
    Puritan PSM156
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    I'll throw another option at ya......

    With the EL34 amp, you can swap in 6CA7's. They will provide more grunt to the bottom end while still retaining the bloom, which of course, is where the magic happens.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    Hehe......another option, run either in the same amp.

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1251827291&/Cary-SLM-70-Signature-el34/kt8
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    One of our members picked up a TAD not to long ago,and the last time I checked,was very happy with it,can't remember,, but Mike Reeter keeps popping up in my head,,might wanna shoot him a pm.

    edit-here's a great one,,unfortunately,,not EL-34,,but I think that I could live with 6550's

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1250895974&/Manley-Labs-75-+-75-amplifier-
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    Not sure.


    But I think he's looking at amps in the $300-$400.00 range.


    At least thats the price range of the amp he is currently looking at. ASL MGSi15dt


    He also mentioned it was for an office rig.


    So I doubt he's looking to spend 2k for a an amp...



    Just sayin..





    Nick
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    any of the amps listed would make a very respectable office rig.
    I mean,,,,,
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    As far as tube types go.

    I would be looking at KT88's given the speaker thats going to be powered are M5's. They are going to need all the bass they can get. And the KT88's can provide this. Along with a great balanced sound if the right tube is selected. I found the Gold Lion KT88 reissues to be phenomenal.


    They say the EL34's can have a more seductive midrange. But I tend to like the KT88's better. Theres something about a big glowing tube.:D





    Nick
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    The best move I ever made was having my VTL's(EL-34) converted to 6L6's when they were in for repair,,bass and midrange are exceptional,,center stage,just a few rows back,so I can see and hear it all.YMMV
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    george daniel wrote: »
    any of the amps listed would make a very respectable office rig.
    I mean,,,,,




    I agree.





    Nick
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    george daniel wrote: »
    The best move I ever made was having my VTL's(EL-34) converted to 6L6's when they were in for repair,,bass and midrange are exceptional,,center stage,just a few rows back,so I can see and hear it all.YMMV




    I've heard great things about the 6L6's but have never had a chance to hear them....


    I will someday..






    Nick
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    Mine have the punch and tightness of a 6CA7--KT 88 but with the magic of the EL-34,,IMHO.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......6L6. **insert drool**
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  • nikolas812
    nikolas812 Posts: 2,915
    edited July 2009
    george daniel wrote: »
    Mine have the punch and tightness of a 6CA7--KT 88 but with the magic of the EL-34,,IMHO.



    There cheap too from what I hear..




    Nick
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    Oh what the hell. I have an Eico HF89 I could part with (not trying to jack the thread) using EL34/6CA7 tubes. Now THAT will give you the warmth that you might be looking for @ 50wpc for plenty of punch. New caps, resistors and all the rebuild goodies. But it aint cheap. I have 2 of these and only need one. Check into this amp and see what you think. Again, this isn't a cheap shot at a sale. You just won't find these for sale too many times.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    I have an opportunity to buy one of these. And Nik is correct for an office rig $400 is tops actually I'd like to keep it around $325-350.

    http://www.teconaudio.com/model_SE43i.html

    I still have the HCT tube hybrid integrated which is really, really good and I've bought about 6-7 different pairs of tubes to roll and I'll be keeping it for time being even if I get something else.

    Powering 5B's w/RDO's, Solens and Mills; AMC Dac8 dac; Signal Cable analog II's; Shotgun style Canare 4S8 speaker cables; FLAC files from computer. Sitting approx 4 feet away. I don;t need a powehouse the 15 wpc of the HCT (Dared MP5) does more than enough. But I also realize the output is transistor gainclone and a full tube amp will be different. The only thing I notice with the HCT,and it is very minimal, is a slight loss of dynamics compared to higher powered SS integrated.

    Nik and 187 I appreciate the offers and I will think about both of them. I'm not in any hurry at this point.

    Keep the discussion going

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    187CAM wrote: »
    Oh what the hell. I have an Eico HF89 I could part with (not trying to jack the thread) using EL34/6CA7 tubes. Now THAT will give you the warmth that you might be looking for @ 50wpc for plenty of punch. New caps, resistors and all the rebuild goodies. But it aint cheap. I have 2 of these and only need one. Check into this amp and see what you think. Again, this isn't a cheap shot at a sale. You just won't find these for sale too many times.

    Dyanaco killer, eh ?
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    It does the job nicely.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    Eh, it seem the ASL on the 'gon is pretty much sold. Very nice guy though, answered my question very fast.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Poee7R
    Poee7R Posts: 904
    edited July 2009
    Well Ill throw my .02 in here. I just got done installing a bunch of new tubes in my newly received Onix SP3, and Im seriously digging it.

    I use it for my office also, and for the money couldnt ask for more. It responds to tube rolling exceptionally well. Its made to use the 6l6 family of tubes, in which I am currently using 350B's and have read of people using kt66's, comes shipped with 5881's. While its not EL34 or KT88 based, it is in your price range and can be tailored very well to suit one's taste very easily. Not to mention I think it looks great.

    Here is a "wiki" with a bit of info regarding the unit, and there are a plethora of review's online, including the locked forums at AV123.com, in which alot of people have discussed their tube preference's, great base of information there.

    http://onix.pbworks.com/SP3

    Ive used it on 4-5 different set's of bookshelve's and even a pair of two of floorstanders that they really had no business being hooked up to and have always been impressed with the sound for the money.

    Good luck in your search.


    Dave
    Once again we meet at last.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    I've looked at those before. I did read in many instances that the amp generally has a more transistor sound rather than tube. I know, I know it's all subjective and depends on the tubes rolled into it.

    But I did read that on more than several occasions. There have been quite a few of them FS lately. I'll add it to the list. Thanks

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    ever consider one of the Dynaco's? I have a friend who swears by his,as he's had it for years,won't let go of it.Good luck in your search.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    The ST70 can be had cheap and tons of mods out there.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    Marky votes for EL84 -- SE or PP. Sorry.
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