LSi15 Crossover Upgrade

Face

The not so pretty looking items in the picture above are a pair of point to point LSi15 crossover built with all film caps and air core inductors. The tweeter inductor was the only piece carried over from the original LSi15 crossover. The mid and woofer caps are Dayton film, tweeter caps are Sonic Caps, mid and woofer resistors are regular Mills, and the tweeter resistor is a Mills labeled MRC-50 resistor. I used the metal cased Mills instead of the traditional Mills in this location because it has less coloration, it's almost as transparent as a Duelund(IMO), and it can take a real beating. The mid and woofer inductors are Solen Hepta-Litz type, they were chosen since they had almost identical DCR's as the original inductors. I normally like to use solid core or foil type, but they would have thrown the speaker's balance off.

Now for a little background. When the LSi15's were originally dropped off at my house, the owner and I gave them a quick listen. Our impressions of them was a little disappointing when compared to the custom speakers I also had set up at the time. Bass was boomy, mids congested, highs veiled, imaging was so so. So instead of just upgrading the caps, we decided to go all out.

It took me a little longer than expected to get everything together due to work, family obligations, and nothing going as planned with the upgrade...but fortunately the owner was very understanding, and even more so, they should easily exceed his expectations.

Initial impressions, from a cold start there was a huge improvement top to bottom. They no longer sound veiled, everything is much more fluid and airy. Highs have a little more sparkle and will improve more with break in. Mids are no longer congested and are much more coherent. Bass is surprisingly is less bloated and better defined. As a whole, the speaker is more dynamic, coherent, smooth, and no longer sounds restricted. Imaging and soundstage has improved somewhat, so far. The center image is very well defined, overall imaging and soundstage is better, but will open up with break in. I only wish they would dig a little deeper, but there's only so much a small side firing woofer can do.

Vette C6.r

I have LSi envy

george daniel

Did ya'll see those Big A$$ blue caps behind the speakers?? Stingray powered? Looks sweet.:cool:

jimmydep

Keep us posted, I would like to know how they sound after the break in period.



Jimmy

polkatese

Great job, Face. I am interested to learn from your experience and hopefully you don't mind sharing the details including your lessons learned.

NJPOLKER

george daniel wrote: »

Did ya'll see those Big A$$ blue caps behind the speakers?? Stingray powered? Looks sweet.:cool:

I sure did.

NJPOLKER

Beautiful work. Your a genius or damn close to it and you got style.

McLoki

Ok Face - you should have expected a bunch of questions from me....

Anyway - great job on the upgrade. Do the crossover boards you have created site inside the LSi15 or outside?

Have you heard upgraded LSi15's before? You are the first I have heard of that actually replaced the inductors - does that mainly help at higher volumes or anytime there is sound playing? How much performance increase was there from the inductors (any ideas?)

How much was your upgrade? (parts only)

Thanks.

Michael

MillerLiteScott

Nice work Mike.

Face

Thanks for the compliments all!

McLoki wrote: »

Anyway - great job on the upgrade. Do the crossover boards you have created site inside the LSi15 or outside?

Inside, hence why the boards are so cramped. The woofer crossover was installed in the lower compartment, the mid and tweeter crossover was installed up top.

Have you heard upgraded LSi15's before?

No I haven't, only modded LSi9's and a LSiC.

You are the first I have heard of that actually replaced the inductors - does that mainly help at higher volumes or anytime there is sound playing? How much performance increase was there from the inductors (any ideas?)

Since I used inductors with the same DCR, I believe it will only help at mid to high volume levels. IMO, most of the congestion was relieved by replacing the electrolytic caps with film caps.

How much was your upgrade? (parts only)

I don't have an exact total, but I would say around $450. I paid for the parts and did the labor in exchange for a piece of gear.

polkatese wrote: »

Great job, Face. I am interested to learn from your experience and hopefully you don't mind sharing the details including your lessons learned.

Besides measure twice, cut once, anything specific? Measuring the space inside, figuring out how to mount everything to the boards, wiring everything up, and figuring out how to secure the boards inside the speakers took some time.

george daniel wrote: »

Did ya'll see those Big A$$ blue caps behind the speakers?? Stingray powered? Looks sweet.:cool:

Those are only bypass caps. :eek: They belong to the ugly speakers behind the 15's.

george daniel

Bypass caps,, great googlamooglies :eek:,, my gawd man.;)

Systems

Wow thats a serious make over. Nice work.

m00npie

Face wrote: »

they should easily exceed his expectations.

They have!! I feel as if I own completely different HT speakers at fraction of the cost(beer). I think the greatest improvement is the LSiC. Night and day difference.

The towers are dramatically different as well. As Face mentioned, when we compared the LSi's to his custom speakers prior to upgrading them, I felt like taking mine to the dump. Comparing the two speakers is really not fair since his x-over components probably cost more than the LSi's. But still, from where they were then to now, I'm very pleased to have these for the HT rig.

Face - now that my house is almost done, you and Polrbehr should stop by.

As for 2-channel.... The modded LSi9's are great for the Office rig, but get busy on my custom pair Face!!!!!!

ben62670

Nice work of coarse. What are those orange heat sinked looking things? Resistors I presume?

megasat16

ben62670 wrote: »

Nice work of coarse. What are those orange heat sinked looking things? Resistors I presume?

I think they are (Dale) Power Resistors.

megasat16

Nice Work Face! I wanted to work on my LSi speakers but too much money. Would it be worthwhile for me to do it?

Face

Thanks again guys.

megasat16 wrote: »

I think they are (Dale) Power Resistors.

Correct, also relabed by Mills.

megasat16 wrote: »

Nice Work Face! I wanted to work on my LSi speakers but too much money. Would it be worthwhile for me to do it?

If you use them as your mains, I would say yes.

megasat16

Face wrote: »

If you use them as your mains, I would say yes.

Thanks Face! I don't use LSi15 as mains. Is there a schema of the LSi25 XO to upgrade? I would try the LSi25 if I can.

McLoki

megasat16 wrote: »

Thanks Face! I don't use LSi15 as mains. Is there a schema of the LSi25 XO to upgrade? I would try the LSi25 if I can.

There is one posted in this thread. As well as some preliminary suggestions for the LSi25 crossover upgrade.

Michael

megasat16

Thanks Mike! I appreciates the info. I'll start looking to order parts for LSi25 XO. But I am not Caps expert.

What Caps to get? I don't want to go with all the expensive caps.

McLoki

megasat16 wrote: »

Thanks Mike! I appreciates the info. I'll start looking to order parts for LSi25 XO. But I am not Caps expert.

What Caps to get? I don't want to go with all the expensive caps.

Lots of options. Many like SoniCaps (gen 1) as excellent bang for the buck. (they would be way expensive for that 500uf though)

For the larger caps (over 30uf or so) you can combine caps...

Options are many, but common suggestions would be sonicaps from Soniccraft, Solen or Dayton from parts express, AEON (solen clone) from SonicCraft, etc.

I am far from an expert and do not know the choices available, but those listed above are pretty common.

Michael

Face

I would use either Sonic Caps(gen I) or Obbligato for the HF(tweeter) circuit, Dayton for the MP(mids), Dayton for the LP(woofer), and bypass the 500uf with a decent quality film cap of at least 5uf(any mentioned above).

megasat16

Thanks McLoki and Face! I'll look into ordering parts and costs tonight.

Toolfan66

Face wrote: »

The not so pretty looking items in the picture above are a pair of point to point LSi15 crossover built with all film caps and air core inductors. The tweeter inductor was the only piece carried over from the original LSi15 crossover. The mid and woofer caps are Dayton film, tweeter caps are Sonic Caps, mid and woofer resistors are regular Mills, and the tweeter resistor is a Mills labeled MRC-50 resistor. I used the metal cased Mills instead of the traditional Mills in this location because it has less coloration, it's almost as transparent as a Duelund(IMO), and it can take a real beating. The mid and woofer inductors are Solen Hepta-Litz type, they were chosen since they had almost identical DCR's as the original inductors. I normally like to use solid core or foil type, but they would have thrown the speaker's balance off.

Now for a little background. When the LSi15's were originally dropped off at my house, the owner and I gave them a quick listen. Our impressions of them was a little disappointing when compared to the custom speakers I also had set up at the time. Bass was boomy, mids congested, highs veiled, imaging was so so. So instead of just upgrading the caps, we decided to go all out.

It took me a little longer than expected to get everything together due to work, family obligations, and nothing going as planned with the upgrade...but fortunately the owner was very understanding, and even more so, they should easily exceed his expectations.

Initial impressions, from a cold start there was a huge improvement top to bottom. They no longer sound veiled, everything is much more fluid and airy. Highs have a little more sparkle and will improve more with break in. Mids are no longer congested and are much more coherent. Bass is surprisingly is less bloated and better defined. As a whole, the speaker is more dynamic, coherent, smooth, and no longer sounds restricted. Imaging and soundstage has improved somewhat, so far. The center image is very well defined, overall imaging and soundstage is better, but will open up with break in. I only wish they would dig a little deeper, but there's only so much a small side firing woofer can do.

Beautiful Audio room you have there Face!!!

AudioGenics

a great presentation

megasat16

Face wrote: »

I would use either Sonic Caps(gen I) or Obbligato for the HF(tweeter) circuit, Dayton for the MP(mids), Dayton for the LP(woofer), and bypass the 500uf with a decent quality film cap of at least 5uf(any mentioned above).

Any recommendations for the places I can buy them at a good price?

McLoki

probably want to start your own thread, but Sonicraft is the only place for sonicaps. Parts Express is your choice for Dayton. (you could also get 1% daytons)

Michael

megasat16

Thanks Mike! I'll look at Sonicraft and Parts Express. I think I should start a new thread too. If it's not too expensive to do, I'll do the XO upgrade for my LSi25. If the cost is too much to spend, I'll leave my LSi25 like that since I am in the process of building High Efficiency / Sensitivity 94-95dB 3 ways DIY speaker using kick-**** drivers.

Face

Tell me more about the DIY speakers. I recently designed a pair of 3 ways and should be starting on another set soon.

megasat16

The plan is either Line Source with Dipole Radiation or Line Array with multiple HF and MF Drivers. LF Driver May Be Sub Based. Xo will be LR4 for sharp roll off or Active Type. All is open to suggestions and improvements.

Estimated Cost - $3K and above for drivers and 1K-2K or so for the XO parts and 1K for the enclosures and other materials. I've ordered HF drivers already and still deciding on the others. I'll start a new thread in DIY section when more plan is materialized.


HF Driver - Aurum Cantus G3Si or LCY K-110 (two in each speaker, one is phase inverted and rear mounted for dipole) (or) HIVI Research RT8ii Planar Drivers

XO at 2KHz & Above

MF Driver - 2 or Multiple Accuton C173N-T6-96 or ScanSpeak 15M/4531K Revelator or Morel Supreme SCM634

XO at 100/150/200Hz to 2KHz

LF Driver - 2 x Acoustics Elegance Lambda based drivers or Rythmik DS1500 Kits

megasat16

What did you build on the DIY 3 speakers? Linky?