Crazy idea... five center channel speakers?

livesoundguy

@kawizx9r

That's an interesting anecdote. It's hard to tell how much of it was the fact that they were center channels vs. the receiver, settings, room, etc, but that does give me pause.

The Monitor 30's are sounding better and better...

Does anyone here have both Monitor 30's and a CS1? How different do they sound? I know they appear to use the same drivers.

My practical side is kicking in here...

kawizx9r

If it were recent, I'd provide you with all the detail I could to better fuel your thirst for recommendations/etc. Like I said though it was some odd years back =( Just reading about your to-be-setup is giving me ideas to upgrade or simply, purchase all new HT gear. Sooner or later I'm going to have to get the amp in one of my towers serviced/possibly replaced but other than that the setup sounds fine. Getting a good deal on a Velodyne sub so my PSW10 might just see Craigslist soon if anyone's interested?

Btw did you pick an AVR yet? Just want to stay posted

livesoundguy

@kawizx9r

I'm still looking at receivers, but in my price range ($500 tops) I think the Onkyo 607 may be hard to beat, despite its lack of pre-amp outs. I want plenty of HDMI inputs since we already have a PS3, a Dish Network DVR, a MacBook Pro that occasionally gets hooked up, and who knows what else in the future. I also need it to upconvert analog video just so that we can keep a (gasp) VHS player and standard def DV camera around a while longer, and our friends will probably bring their Nintendo Wii over from time to time.

It also needs to have good sound, and I've been pretty happy with my existing Onkyo receiver from the mid 90's.

The Audyssey room correction thing also appeals to me somewhat... my friend is a mastering engineer and he was playing with a software version of Audyssey that he purchased that runs as a VST software plug-in within Cubase (a digital audio workstation program). He at least initially reported being pretty impressed with it.

I am a little concerned about the reports of amazingly high heat for the Onkyo though. Right now the plan is for the receiver, the Sony PS3, the Dish Network satellite receiver/DVR, a Dell PC (Linux server), a Cisco 24 port Ethernet switch, cable modem, and an APC rack mounted UPS to all go into the AV closet, which is just a normal bog standard closet that has an On-Q structured wiring panel and HDMI/speaker/sub jacks terminating there. I think I forsee a couple of rack mounted fan units and some high/low door vents in my future to keep the air moving in there.

As an aside, I've been Googling things like MTM, center channel speaker dispersion, and the like. It seems like the consensus, at least among some people, is that horizontal center channel MTM speaker layouts are something of a compromise based on the usual form factor limitations that come with trying to put a speaker and a TV in the same spot.

I think the CS1 will probably work well for me as a center channel (I'll get it this weekend and put it through its paces), but I think I'm now leaning away from the five center channels idea, thanks to the helpful information I found here. I think wall mounted Monitor 30's are just a hugely practical idea, especially considering that I have a relatively over-powered sub to pair them with (the PSW505, which arrives tomorrow).

So many things to think about... but that's always how it is. If I didn't want to spend the time thinking about it, I could always just grab whatever, with unpredictable results

kawizx9r

Lol...speaking of unpredictable. I'm still on Craigslist checking out to see if a CS400/i comes up (my center is mediocre and I would like a near-perfect match for my mains still) I still come across these "white-van scam"-speakers that people are trying to sell for 900+. Being in a big city I've had one approach my wife and I, but common sense kicked in and we turned our cheek the other way.

jimmydep

livesoundguy wrote: »

@kawizx9r

I'm still looking at receivers, but in my price range ($500 tops) I think the Onkyo 607 may be hard to beat, despite its lack of pre-amp outs. I want plenty of HDMI inputs since we already have a PS3, a Dish Network DVR, a MacBook Pro that occasionally gets hooked up, and who knows what else in the future. I also need it to upconvert analog video just so that we can keep a (gasp) VHS player and standard def DV camera around a while longer, and our friends will probably bring their Nintendo Wii over from time to time.

You could look at the Yamaha's The RX-v663 has pre outs as does the new RX-v665 (which I do not recommend for you, I'm not happy with mine) or the V-765, the new Yammi's have good video upconversion with plenty of HDMI inputs, and you should be able to find them in your price range.

They also have their version of Audyssey, which isn't too bad.


Jimmy

TECHNOKID

jimmydep wrote: »

You could look at the Yamaha's The RX-v663 has pre outs as does the new RX-v665 (which I do not recommend for you, I'm not happy with mine) or the V-765, the new Yammi's have good video upconversion with plenty of HDMI inputs, and you should be able to find them in your price range.

They also have their version of Audyssey, which isn't too bad.


Jimmy

+1 for the Yamaha, reliable no overheating problems like the Onkio...

jimmydep

livesoundguy wrote: »

I think the CS1 will probably work well for me as a center channel (I'll get it this weekend and put it through its paces), but I think I'm now leaning away from the five center channels idea, thanks to the helpful information I found here. I think wall mounted Monitor 30's are just a hugely practical idea, especially considering that I have a relatively over-powered sub to pair them with (the PSW505, which arrives tomorrow).

So many things to think about... but that's always how it is. If I didn't want to spend the time thinking about it, I could always just grab whatever, with unpredictable results

If your looking for good deals on speakers, try "Polk audio direct" on e-bay. Most of the speakers are Refurb's but I've purchased several items from them and they are just like Brand New. Right now they have plenty of Monitor series speakers in Cherry listed.

If you have the room you may find a great deal on floor standing speakers.

You might consider cutting high-low vents in the wall rather than the door, it's easier to patch a wall than a door and you'll get the same results, and cutting into a panel door can get tricky (and may not look so good).

Good luck

Jimmy

Systems

livesoundguy wrote: »

I still wonder how much the sweet spot would be affected running five CS1's horizontally. Do you think it would be an earth shattering difference, or something fairly subtle?

It would depend on a number of things like the speaker vs listener position, hearing acuity and the specifics of the CS1's design itself. Some MTM's suffer far more from lobing/comb filtering effects than others.You may be happy with the results but in theory atleast its not the ideal configuration.

Also, do you think the Onkyo Audyssey 2EQ system would help at all with this?

No ,The application of EQ will not fix lobing problems.

MrGlobe

I used to have a pair of JBL Voice Venue center channels set up for a 2.0 system. I was very satisfied with the quality of sound they produced, and didn't notice anything specifically wrong about them (that had to do with their being centers and not mains)

.02

ViperZ

TECHNOKID wrote: »

+1 for the Yamaha, reliable no overheating problems like the Onkio...

And again, to each his own. My Onkyo runs hot, but does not overheat (unlike my previous horrible HK AVR635 which died because of overheating).

Also, combination of receiver and speakers really matters. Personally, I hate the sound that comes out of Yamaha (and I tried multiple speaker brands) - IMHO, it's waaaay too bright. I auditioned Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha when I was buying my Onk - would not hesitate to buy Pio or Onk, would not buy a Yammie.

TECHNOKID

ViperZ wrote: »

And again, to each his own. My Onkyo runs hot, but does not overheat (unlike my previous horrible HK AVR635 which died because of overheating).

Also, combination of receiver and speakers really matters. Personally, I hate the sound that comes out of Yamaha (and I tried multiple speaker brands) - IMHO, it's waaaay too bright. I auditioned Onkyo, Pioneer and Yamaha when I was buying my Onk - would not hesitate to buy Pio or Onk, would not buy a Yammie.

Like you are saying, to each one his own. The fact that onkio generates lots of heat doesn't make them bad receivers anyway. Many people still favor onkio receivers still. Same applies with yamaha, many complain about their receivers being bright and still many people favors them. I think like speakers, the choice of a receiver is very subjective.

When I looked at the CS1, the tweeter being in the center made me believe that like the RM20 or RM30, the guts was the same (tweeter, woofer and XO) and therefore wouldn't make any problems. I did open RM20 centers and fronts and everything is the same even the port location therefore shouldn't cause any issue. Too bad the CS1 isn't made in such a way.

livesoundguy, again looking at your room and its size, maybe you should consider one of the SurroundBar and simply add some good fronts on "B" channel for music playing?

Cheers!

livesoundguy

@TECHNOKID: The walls are wired for 5.1 sound, and I've already bought a CS1 and a PSW505. Thanks for the suggestion though, I could see how the SurroundBar would be great for some setups.

At this point I'm leaning toward Monitor 30's for the front/rear speakers, the CS1 for the center (since it's already on its way here), or maybe even a fifth Monitor 30 for the center and sell the CS1 so everything still matches. I guess that would be a whole different debate. I'm still thinking about all that talk of horizontal speakers being a compromise, and the comb filtering debate. Truthfully though, I'm probably the only one that would really notice such a thing, and unless we have company over we'll normally be sitting within the sweet spot of the center channel anyway, as it provides the best view of the TV.

As for receivers, after quite a bit of research, I think that the Denon 1610/590 may be the perfect thing for me. It's 5.1, it's got 3 HDMI inputs, it upconverts analog sources to HDMI, it's got Audyssey MultEQ (as opposed to the 2EQ in the Onkyo, which doesn't handle the subwoofer frequencies), it only costs $350(!), and from what I've read it's supposed to run cooler than the Onkyo. The heat is a pretty big concern given the amount of stuff I'm going to be sticking into the (currently) unventilated closet. The Denon seems to have all the features I need, almost none of the ones I don't need (7.1, second zone, B speakers, etc), and is priced very competitively.

The Yamaha receivers also look nice, but all the ones under $500 only have two HDMI inputs and tons of S-Video and component inputs, which are mostly useless to me.

The Denon 1610/590 has 75 watts per channel for 5 channels, for a peak total of 375 collectively. The PSW505 sub has a peak total of 460. I believe the ratio there is probably about right. I know, no pre-amp outs, but it's inexpensive and almost certainly going to be enough for the next few years. If I want to upgrade later, I can always put it to use in a different room of the house or something and buy a preamp that supports HDMI 1.7q and feed it into mono block tube amps with XLR cables, or whatever the latest thing is by then

livesoundguy

Oh, I almost forgot. The PSW505 came today.

Damn.

Bass, and lots of it! It also has a definite feel of quality through and through. It's heavy and appears solidly made. I only heard it by itself, but the bass sounded pretty tight and rounded from my initial tests.

The CS1 gets here on Saturday, so I'm still looking forward to doing a more traditional full frequency test using both speakers (but I had to make sure it worked, right?)

Actually, the thing that made Polk Audio stand out in my mind after all these years was one time when I was in some record store in the early 90's. Their music playback system sounded amazingly good with tight, ample bass. I saw that they were using Polk Audio speakers (I have no idea which ones). It seems the tradition is still alive here in this subwoofer.

danz1906

Congrats,keep us posted on the system.

comfortablycurt

livesoundguy wrote: »

I've pretty much given up on the idea of wall mounting Monitor 40's vertically without drilling holes in the speakers. If anyone knows of good stands that could accomplish this, that might be a good way to do things.

B-tech BT-77.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_121BT77B/B-Tech-BT77-Black.html?search=B-tech

I've got a pair of them...they work great. They can support very large bookshelves...when anchored to a wall stud, they can support up to 55 pounds.

I'm not even using they pair that I have anymore...but I'm keeping around just in case I ever need them again. Some very secure, high quality wall mounts, that require no drilling into the speaker.

livesoundguy

@comfortablycurt

I came across the B-tech BT-77 brackets in my searches, but they almost look too good to be true.

Would those really hold up a pair of Monitor 40's without having to drill into the Monitor 40's to keep them in place? I see all these positive reviews, but just looking at the shape of the brackets and the shape of the Monitor 40's, I would imagine they would get wobbly.

In your opinion, would these hold the 40's up extremely tightly, or would it be a "I hope no one ever bumps these" kind of situation?

comfortablycurt

They'd be able to hold the Monitor 40's with no problem at all.

They have rubbery grippy pads that you insert on the clamps, they do a very good job of holding the speakers securely. There are many people on board here that use them. They're capable of holding speakers much larger than the Monitor 40's. You just have to make sure to anchor them securely to a wall stud.

I used to have my RTi6's in them, which are heavier than the Monitor 40's IIRC. I've since gotten some floor stands for them though. The BT-77's aren't going anywhere though. I'm sure I'll use them again.

Believe me...I had my doubts about them at first too, but I wouldn't even hesitate to recommend them now. Some very well built wall mounts.

livesoundguy

@comfortablycurt

Your experience sounds like the reports I read everywhere else about these brackets. Maybe I should put my faith in these and go for some Monitor 40's after all. Hmm...

Being a "belt and suspenders" conservative type (with regard to engineering, I don't wear suspenders), I'd probably want to have some sort of secondary system to prevent the speaker from falling in case the brackets failed. Maybe I'd gain more trust in them once I saw them, but it only takes one speaker falling once to ruin your whole day

Do you have any experience with the BT-15 center channel mounts or anything like it? The other mounting challenge is to mount the CS1 center channel over the TV when the wall studs behind it aren't perfectly lined up where the two brackets would go. Perhaps I need some sort of a shelf or something.

Thanks again for all the input. I truly appreciate it, and my system will be better as a result!

wutadumsn23

livesoundguy wrote: »

@comfortablycurt

Your experience sounds like the reports I read everywhere else about these brackets. Maybe I should put my faith in these and go for some Monitor 40's after all. Hmm...

Do you have any experience with the BT-15 center channel mounts or anything like it? The other mounting challenge is to mount the CS1 center channel over the TV when the wall studs behind it aren't perfectly lined up where the two brackets would go. Perhaps I need some sort of a shelf or something.

Thanks again for all the input. I truly appreciate it, and my system will be better as a result!

I would recommend the 40's myself, I have them as surrounds and they work great. The brackets should have no problem holding up the 40's as Curt stated, and IMHO it would be better to have 4 of those opposed to 5 CS1's. Your best bet for your center channel would be to build some sort of shelf as you stated and put the CS1 there. There will even be enough room left over for your wife/girlfried (if applicable, lol) to add her personal touch to the HT experience, and we all know how important it is to have them on board, lol. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

livesoundguy

I think I'm going to have to get a hold of some Monitor 40's and BT77 wall mounting brackets.

I haven't heard anything definitive about the relative sound quality of Monitor 30's vs. Monitor 40's, but I have to imagine that the 40's sound a little fuller, even when used with a subwoofer. You can't fight physics.

I'll report back when I get it all set up (which will be in a couple months) and post pictures.

Thank you everyone who posted here, it has been a really big help!

MrGlobe

Ive got a pair of monitor 40s and a pair of T15s, Im not sure how the T15s compare to the monitor 30s but they look similar. Although the sound of the T15s is great, the 40s sound like a much larger speaker. I was always impressed with the bass of the T15s, it was sharp and punchy, But they are still nothing compared to the 40s

VSchneider

MrGlobe wrote: »

Ive got a pair of monitor 40s and a pair of T15s, Im not sure how the T15s compare to the monitor 30s but they look similar. Although the sound of the T15s is great, the 40s sound like a much larger speaker. I was always impressed with the bass of the T15s, it was sharp and punchy, But they are still nothing compared to the 40s

well, T15's are not too much compared to Monitor 30, either

livesoundguy

Well, I got the CS1 today, and tried it out (in a somewhat haphazard manner) with the PSW505. Since I don't yet have a proper surround sound receiver, I plugged the left speaker out of my old Onkyo receiver into the subwoofer, and then ran the CS1 from the speaker outs on the sub.

Overall, it sounded very good with both TV and music. Clear, natural, full range sound. I'm sure it will sound even better when I add two pairs of Monitor 40's and set it up properly with all the speakers and running the signal through Audyssey MultEQ

kniowsk1

I don't think I could handle the unconventional look of a multi-center setup. Sorry.