Carver Tube equipment

Odysseous

Hi guys, I'm new to the forum, but I've been a Polk fan and owner for 10+ years. It started with the Polk DB5520 car speakers and now I have a pair of SDA SRS 3.1TL, which I love.

I've never owned any tube equipment, but in the last few months I aquired these among other Carver items: a Carver SD/A 490t Reference CD player with tube output (Carver's best CD) and a Carver C-19 Reference Tube Pre-Amplifier (Carver's best pre-amp). I was very excited to hear what a lot of the forums are saying about these tube equipment, but when I actually tried it and compared it with the stuff I already had, it didn't make that much of a difference. I have a pretty nice Yamaha RX-V861 and a regular Sony CD changer. Could it be that the tubes are not working good anymore - they're almost 20 years old? or are tubes the type of components that they either work or they don't? Also, the Carver C-19 has tubes for the tone controls, but when I use the tone controls and the volume control is past half-way, there's quite a bit of distortion... again, could this be related to the tubes not working good anymore and need replacement?
Thanks for the help!

gdb

I can only dream of having the two Carver pieces that you've gotten, nice grab !! That said, it may be that your AVR/amp won't play well with the Carvers....or, there's something wrong with one of them, or both. I do know that a couple of Carver "freaks" absolutely love the 490 & C-19 units. Try joining both of the sites linked for some expert advice, I'm sure somebody will have the answers you need. Bob Carver has opened a new repair shop with Rita that does very inexpensive repairs,and will return those pieces to "like new" condition ! Good luck!:)

http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7093

http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB3/index.php

http://thecarversite.com/yetanotherforum/default.aspx?

F1nut

Also, the Carver C-19 has tubes for the tone controls

That would be incorrect. Tone controls are just that, whether you use the tone controls or not, the signal is passed thru the tubes.

but when I use the tone controls and the volume control is past half-way, there's quite a bit of distortion...

The general rule of thumb is to NOT turn the volume level higher than halfway. The distortion is from the amp clipping. Turn it down or get a more powerful amp. Speaking of which, what are you using for power?


As for why you can't hear a difference between tubes and SS, I can't say as there are too many variables.

If the tubes are original, they may not be performing as well as possible, but that would also depend on how many hours are on them, which I suspect you don't know. You could have them tested or simply buy replacements.

skipf

I have both the SDA/490t & the C-19. If they don't sound better than the Yamaha and Sony, I'd guess you have a problem in the system somewhere. As F1nut questioned, what power amp are you using? The tubes in both Carver units will degrade some over time, but should still be putting out distortion free sound. I can turn the volumn up to room shaking levels with either the 490t hooked directly to my amps through the variable output on the CD player, or going through the C-19 using the fixed output on the CD with no distortion at all. I'd guess the distortion you are experiencing is coming from the amp, a bad cable, or incorrect setup of the CD or pre. Do you have the CD hooked up to your C-19 using the fixed outputs on the CD? If you are using the variable outputs you could be putting too much gain into the C-19. The C-19 also has a gain control. What do you have that set at? I've gotten best results with mine by setting the gain one level below center position for CD's and at the center position for my turntable. A bad cable can also cause distortion that is more easily heard at high volumn. You might try connecting the 490t directly to your amp with the variable output and see if the distortion is still there. If not, hook your Sony up to the C-19 and see if there is any distortion. If there is distortion, the C-19 might need service. If there is distortion with both hookups, I'd guess the amp or cables are the problem.

Odysseous

Thanks for your responses, guys! You answered the main question I had: do tubes degrade over time? Since the answer is "yes", then I suspect that's why I don't hear that drastic difference between the Yamaha/Sony and the Carver tube gear. I am using the Yamaha RX-V861 (it's a $900 receiver with very good reviews) as power amplifier with the Carver CD and Pre-Amp. The Yamaha has a feature -called "Direct"- to bypass digital signal processing and most circuits, to the point of even bypassing circuit that controls the little display on the front of the receiver, to avoid any colorations on the sound, so it acts as just an amp.
The Carver 490T is connected via the Fixed outputs to the C-19. And the C-19 is set at 20db (one notch to the right of center - maybe that's what I need to change). The C-19 is then connected to the Yamaha (set on "Direct") for amplification. I really think the C-19 is distorting because I hear the distortion as soon as I get the C-19 volume control past 1/2, regardless of the volume on the Yamaha. So even if the speakers are playing at a level where you can have a normal conversation, the distortion is still there as soon as the C-19 volume control goes past 1/2.

I thought about sending them to Bob and Rita, but since I'm still not 100% sure there's anything wrong with them, I didn't want to spend the money on it yet. It would cost about $180 + shipping each, so it's a good price, but it would still be a waste of money if it turned out that there was nothing really wrong with them, right?

Odysseous

I forgot to add this regarding the tubes in the tone controls in the C-19, it's got 4 vacuum tubes: This is what the manual says: "At the heart of the C-19 is an audiophile-quality "straight wire" preamplifier with 6DJ8 vacuum tubes in the line amplifier, tone control and both phone stages"

F1nut

The differences will not be drastic, but should be noticeable.

A $900 receiver as a $900 receiver, it's not a high quality power amp.

You shouldn't have to turn the volume past halfway. You may have an impedance mis-match issue.

Start by replacing the tubes and see what things are like after that.

As I said, "Tone controls are just that, whether you use the tone controls or not, the signal is passed thru the tubes." I'll also add that you shouldn't need to use the tone controls, they should be flat. In fact, better gear doesn't have them at all.

ND13

Does the Yammie have "PRE-OUTS"? You shouldn't even be using the volume control on the receiver.

Ron Temple

To get the full benefit, you should probably find a nice Carver amp and take the Yammie out of the chain. With the Yammie, what setting are you using? If you're not in a Pure Direct mode, processing is being applied by the AVR and it's going to sound like Yamaha not Carver. In Pure Direct, no processing should be applied and theoretically it shouldn't color the sound. I'm also wondering what putting a preamp between the source and the preamp section of the Yammie is doing. They might not play together very well.

ND13

ND13 wrote: »

Does the Yammie have "PRE-OUTS"? You shouldn't even be using the volume control on the receiver.

I meant an input that allows you to use the amp section only of the receiver. I doubt it. Do what Ron suggested and get a separate amp and you'll most definitely hear the difference. Fresh tubes, in the CDP and the PRE are gonna help, too. 6DJ8/6922/7308 variants are plentiful with some likely for sale in the FM right now. They are my favorite signal tubes, by far.

heiney9

I had a Yammie integrated with "pure direct" and I didn't hear a difference on or off. That leads me to believe it wasn;t as "pure" or "direct" as the manufacturer would have you believe.

Using receivers as pre-amps are a compromise

H9

skipf

I also have a Yamaha reciever with pure direct. The pure direct does bypass the tone controls, but the signal still runs through the Yamaha preamp section. You are in effect running a preamp into a preamp which will almost guarantee distortion. I don't use my Yamaha anymore because, guess what, it would start to clip at just over half volumn and blow the tweeters in the speakers. Get a stand alone power amp and your problem will disappear, even without new tubes. I seriously doubt either the SDA/490t or the C-19 need service or are the cause of the problem. If you have a buddy with a seperate amp, try hooking that up instead of your reciever and I'll bet a dime to a dollar the distortion disappears.

thuffman03

Odysseous,

I would suggest trying a different amp, non AVR, and see what you think.

If you live in Pittsburgh area I think I can round up a Carver TFM and bring it over to see if that makes a difference.

hearingimpared

Welcome to Club Polk Odysseous

Odysseous

Wow this is a great forum! Thanks everybody for their tips and help, I really wasn't expecting all the friendliness and great advice - Tuffman03 even offered to let me try it with his own amps (Unfortunately I live in San Antonio, TX and he's in Pittsburgh).

All of you are telling me to try a separate amp and that's what I"ll do - when I got this Carver gear, it also came with 2 TFM-45 amps, but those weren't working, so they're being repaired right now. By the way, the rest of the system is the TX-11b tuner and a TD-1700 cassette player.

For the people that have the C-19 and 490T (or any other tube gear for that matter), where do you see the greatest benefit of tubes? is it in tone quality (warmth, smoothness, etc)? soundsating and imaging? Is it a more real-world sound, especially on voices? I just don't know if I'm listening for the right things when comparing my SS equipment to my tube equipment.

Ron Temple

I'm no tube expert, but I've heard a couple of rigs and have owned tube-like Carver and Luxman gear. Depending on your speakers and associated gear it can vary...can be described as open and airy, laid back, the highs are definitely rolled off slightly, but without loss of detail. Warm and cozy, slow and lazy, forward/backward whatever description applies when you hear it is personal. The soundstage will be different. Much depends on the source, the pre, the amp and ICs/cable. It will change with substituion of any component.

The TFM 45 is a nice sounding amp. It will really open up your 3.1TLs.

skipf

Odysseous wrote: »

For the people that have the C-19 and 490T (or any other tube gear for that matter), where do you see the greatest benefit of tubes? is it in tone quality (warmth, smoothness, etc)? soundsating and imaging? Is it a more real-world sound, especially on voices? I just don't know if I'm listening for the right things when comparing my SS equipment to my tube equipment.

You pretty much nailed it, all of the above for my old ears.

nooshinjohn

Odysseous wrote: »

I am using the Yamaha RX-V861 (it's a $900 receiver with very good reviews) as power amplifier with the Carver CD and Pre-Amp. The Yamaha has a feature -called "Direct"- to bypass digital signal processing and most circuits, to the point of even bypassing circuit that controls the little display on the front of the receiver, to avoid any colorations on the sound, so it acts as just an amp.
The Carver 490T is connected via the Fixed outputs to the C-19. And the C-19 is set at 20db (one notch to the right of center - maybe that's what I need to change). The C-19 is then connected to the Yamaha (set on "Direct") for amplification. I really think the C-19 is distorting because I hear the distortion as soon as I get the C-19 volume control past 1/2, regardless of the volume on the Yamaha. So even if the speakers are playing at a level where you can have a normal conversation, the distortion is still there as soon as the C-19 volume control goes past 1/2.

Not to be seen as brand-bashing, but from experience, I can say that the Yammy flat out sucks for what you are using it for. It is far to bright and lacks the power and CONTROL needed to take advantage of what the CD player has to offer. I owned the 861, and it lasted long enough for me to find out how much better going with separates really is.

Odysseous wrote: »

I thought about sending them to Bob and Rita, but since I'm still not 100% sure there's anything wrong with them, I didn't want to spend the money on it yet. It would cost about $180 + shipping each, so it's a good price, but it would still be a waste of money if it turned out that there was nothing really wrong with them, right?

We now know there is a problem with the C-19... send it, and the TFM-45's that you have to them for proper servicing and upgrades. Get Bob's signature on them and sit back and enjoy the music. You can thank me later.;):)

George Grand

A fitting addition to this thread.

erniejade

You can also take the c-19 one step up and have it modified by rolland... He not only fixes but he also can upgrade.

Have you also tried to turn the gain ( not the volume ) up at all ? I think you said you had it at -20?


BTW if you got the 2 tfm45, and the c-19 in a package deal .. WOW nice setup!! You said the 45's were being repaired... Why? Did you also get the 3.1's in the deal? If you or the person that owned the euqipment before you owned the 3.1's and were mono bridging the amps to the 3.1's that might have caused some dammage if they were not using a A-1 cable.

agfrost

FYI, this is a year-old thread

erniejade

SOB i didnt even see that. Who brought it back from the dead... nooshinjohn lol

agfrost

erniejade wrote: »

SOB i didnt even see that. Who brought it back from the dead... nooshinjohn lol

You callin' me SOB?!! :mad::mad::mad:

J/K!

erniejade

agfrost wrote: »

You callin' me SOB?!! :mad::mad::mad:

J/K!

LOL too funny HEY on a side note, You don't seem too far from me. I live in Bolingbrook

nooshinjohn

Any takers on an IL/IN get together?

agfrost

erniejade wrote: »

LOL too funny HEY on a side note, You don't seem too far from me. I live in Bolingbrook

Not far at all. My in-laws live in south Naperville, even closer.

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Any takers on an IL/IN get together?

I'm definitely up for one, just a matter of timing!

Jay