LSi7 Crossover Upgrade - SoniCaps and Mills

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  • xj4094dg
    xj4094dg Posts: 1,158
    edited August 2009
    McLoki wrote: »

    The LSi binding posts seem to work fine for my application and I wanted to keep a stock outside appearance. (well, ok - except the fact they are gloss black :p) Anyway - if you were unhappy with the stock binding posts or just like others better, this would be an excellent time to switch them.

    All in all, I am very happy with the upgrades i have done and am really looking forward to doing the crossovers in my LSi15's.

    Gloss black? Do you mean the side panels? Are there any pics? Thanks again for a killer thread....
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it." Neil deGrasse Tyson.
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  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited August 2009
    xj4094dg wrote: »
    Gloss black? Do you mean the side panels? Are there any pics? Thanks again for a killer thread....

    Click the link in my sig next to the LSi7. (The "Wood sides removed" part) yes - I have removed the side panels.

    This is what they look like now...

    attachment.php?attachmentid=9558&d=1119392030
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
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  • praedet
    praedet Posts: 314
    edited August 2009
    All right, so one last question... (This will be my first DIY crossover mod)

    If I decided to change out the inductors, will replacing both inductors w/ ERSE’s FoilQ air core coils yield all right results? Especially changing out the iron core inductor? Next question, using L1, the air-core inductor, as an example, do I need to match the 0.15mH and the DCR of 0.37 ohms, just the 0.15mH value? And lastly, if I am going to go larger gauge on each of them anyway, should they remain different gauges, or is a single gauge fine?

    Thanks,
    Ted
    PS Part of the reason I am going the extra distance on these is that they will be used with an LSiC and LSi9s modified by a definite professional...
    HT: Ninja Master LSi9s, Ninja Master LSiC, Slightly Modded LSiFXs, Modded LSi7s, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and Polk PSW125
    Outlaw 970 Preamp, Outlaw 7700 Amp, Velodyne SMS-1, Oppo BDP-83,
    2 APC H-15s and a Panamax 5400 for good measure ;)
    Stereo: DIY Alix Music Server, DODD Audio Battery Tube Buffer, Modded DAC-60 and MF V-Link (for now), DIY Silver ICs, Battery Powered Class D SDS-254 Amp, and GR-Research N2X Speakers
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  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited August 2009
    praedet wrote: »
    All right, so one last question... (This will be my first DIY crossover mod)

    If I decided to change out the inductors, will replacing both inductors w/ ERSE’s FoilQ air core coils yield all right results? Especially changing out the iron core inductor? Next question, using L1, the air-core inductor, as an example, do I need to match the 0.15mH and the DCR of 0.37 ohms, just the 0.15mH value? And lastly, if I am going to go larger gauge on each of them anyway, should they remain different gauges, or is a single gauge fine?

    Thanks,
    Ted
    PS Part of the reason I am going the extra distance on these is that they will be used with an LSiC and LSi9s modified by a definite professional...

    I have not changed the inductors, so someone else may want to chime in with their experience, but here is what I learned while researching inductor swapping for my speakers......

    I would only change the inductor in the bass circuit. (the tweeter circuit is already air core) you need to mach the mH (Micro Henrys) exactly. For the DCR get as close as you can. (within .25 watt if possible) In doing this while switching from iron core to air core - you will have to go to a larger guage, so don't be surprised that the inductor you try to add will be much larger than the one you are replacing.

    If you play at high levels a lot - the inductor change may be worth it, but for my uses, I decided to use the inductors that were there and have been happy with the results.

    Don't get to hung up on the professional name.... After all your crossover was designed, tested and built by professionals, but with a small amount of work, you are going to make it significantly better.

    Much like building a computer - the end product is more a function of the parts used, not the person putting stuff in the box.....

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited August 2009
    praedet wrote: »
    All right, so one last question... (This will be my first DIY crossover mod)

    If I decided to change out the inductors, will replacing both inductors w/ ERSE’s FoilQ air core coils yield all right results? Especially changing out the iron core inductor? Next question, using L1, the air-core inductor, as an example, do I need to match the 0.15mH and the DCR of 0.37 ohms, just the 0.15mH value? And lastly, if I am going to go larger gauge on each of them anyway, should they remain different gauges, or is a single gauge fine?

    Thanks,
    Ted
    PS Part of the reason I am going the extra distance on these is that they will be used with an LSiC and LSi9s modified by a definite professional...
    I'll echo what Mike said.

    Keep the DCR as close to possible, or you'll throw the speaker's balance off and possibly change x-over frequencies. Personally, I'd leave the tweeter's inductor alone, the difference will very subtle, if noticeable at all. IMO, the biggest difference would be from changing the tweeter caps, then the woofer cap(s), then the woofer inductor.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • praedet
    praedet Posts: 314
    edited August 2009
    Thanks for the great directions! I just got done listening to one modded LSi7 and one un-modded. This is my first crossover upgrade, so let that be a preface to my comments...

    After listening to a quite a few songs (maybe 40 minutes), I notice a little more clarity and a lower noise floor, but the big thing is the tweeter sounds more natural and less harsh on any passages where it was slightly harsh before. Right now, it is pretty subtle though, so it is a wash as to whether or not it was worth all the stuff that I will describe in after this paragraph. But, based on what you all say, they should get better as the caps and resistors get some hours on them, so I am looking forward to that :)

    All right. So, I have done an all right amount of soldering, but never on a circuit board. I do have a de-soldering iron, so that was quite helpful! As I went along and meticulously took out the connections I needed, I started noticing that the copper on the board had slightly peeled away at some of the soldering joints. In one place, after I removed the extra solder, it was uncovered fiber glass w/no copper. So, I knew then I would have a little more work ahead of me.

    I actually got everything together and buttoned up with one wire run instead of using the circuit board on that connection and hooked up the speaker. No tweeter :(

    I then took it back out and looked at it. Those connections where the copper was pulling away were on the tweeter part of the network. So, I run another two wires. Button it up. Now the mid-range driver is going in and out :(

    At this point, I decide that I will be wiring point to point and throwing out the circuit board. Luckily, I had a 3”x24”x0.5" solid oak board lying around and I cut two pieces off about the size of the circuit board and sanded them a little. Next I drilled the holes for the connection to the plastic binding post mount. Next I started diving into the schematic to set up the layout on the new board, and figure out how to wire it. After that was all done and all the soldering of the components was finished, I drilled holes for wires to pass through the board. Then, I started hot gluing things to the board in the places I had figured out, running wires through holes in the board to connect to the woofer inductor, and the leads on the binding posts. I changed out all of the wires in the speaker except the stranded runs going to the drivers themselves. I soldered the speaker leads to the proper components, and the crossover to the binding posts, and then put her back together. She worked great on the first try :) (3rd if you are keeping track ;))

    If you decide to go down this route, one piece of advice. Go out and purchase some #4 sheet metal screws, preferably 1" long, but 3/4" works. You will need them to go through the MUCH thicker board.

    I will be doing speaker #2 in 3-4 days, and when I do that one, I will replace the binding posts in that speaker as well. That way I have a modded (w/ about 50 or so hours on it) to un-modded speaker comparison, then a modded to modded w/ binding post change-out comparison, and lastly I will fix the binding posts in the speaker that is currently modded and in my LSiFXs:)


    Anyway, I am looking forward to hearing the LSi9s and C when they are done :)

    Ted
    HT: Ninja Master LSi9s, Ninja Master LSiC, Slightly Modded LSiFXs, Modded LSi7s, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and Polk PSW125
    Outlaw 970 Preamp, Outlaw 7700 Amp, Velodyne SMS-1, Oppo BDP-83,
    2 APC H-15s and a Panamax 5400 for good measure ;)
    Stereo: DIY Alix Music Server, DODD Audio Battery Tube Buffer, Modded DAC-60 and MF V-Link (for now), DIY Silver ICs, Battery Powered Class D SDS-254 Amp, and GR-Research N2X Speakers
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  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited August 2009
    congrats on the upgrade - sorry for all the issues you had. I have not run into any of that with my LSiC nor LSi7's. All I can think of is how much heat did you use when desoldering/soldering? My iron is 30watts - I would not go higher than that....

    Glad you got it all sorted....

    Did you replace all the caps and resistors? The biggest thing I noticed was the additional bass and clarity in the upgraded speaker. (that may have been after it broke in a bit though - can't really remember)

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
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  • praedet
    praedet Posts: 314
    edited September 2009
    Finshed the other speaker last night. Overall, not night and day, but I like the improvement ;)

    I upgraded all caps and resistors to sonicaps and mills, exactly like you did. I did have all the caps matched between the two speakers within about 0.05 or so uF. The folks that sent them to me had marked the exact values on the outside for that very reason, for example the 4 12 uF caps were values of 12.02, 12.03 12.25, and 12.27. I put the 12.02 and 12.27 in one speaker and the 12.03 and 12.25 in the other, with closest value caps in the same location in each cross-over. Probably over-kill ;)

    I changed out all the wiring in the cross-overs so the only thing stock were the wires to the speakers. I also replaced the binding posts while I was there with Vampire BPs. Since I was doing that, I replaced the binding posts and the wires from the binding posts to the x-over on my LSiFXs too.

    This first step on the LSI7s will be a very nice comparison to my LSi9s and LSiC that will have a Ninja Master network in a few weeks ;)
    HT: Ninja Master LSi9s, Ninja Master LSiC, Slightly Modded LSiFXs, Modded LSi7s, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and Polk PSW125
    Outlaw 970 Preamp, Outlaw 7700 Amp, Velodyne SMS-1, Oppo BDP-83,
    2 APC H-15s and a Panamax 5400 for good measure ;)
    Stereo: DIY Alix Music Server, DODD Audio Battery Tube Buffer, Modded DAC-60 and MF V-Link (for now), DIY Silver ICs, Battery Powered Class D SDS-254 Amp, and GR-Research N2X Speakers
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  • praedet
    praedet Posts: 314
    edited October 2009
    Not trying to hijack the thread w/ my upgrade, but I wanted to give an update.

    After reading up on bypass caps, I decided to try adding some to the two caps in the tweeter circuit. I added 1 0.1 uF Sonicap Platinum in parallel with each of the 12 uF Sonicap Gen 1s, for a total of 2 per speaker.

    These caps supposedley take a full 500 hours to burn-in, and they currently have about 4 hours ;) Also, I do not have the LSi9s and LSiC back from Sean yet, so I am using the LSi7s as the fronts and seding the center channel info to them too.

    I can say that even with as little time as they have on them, if the bypass mods improved the performance by 30%, these added another 5-10%, even with little to no break-in. Quite simply, everything is more detailed and crisp. My wife and I were watching "Quantum of Solace" on BR. We stopped for a few hours and she did not know that I had changed anything on the speakers during the intervening time. When she came back, after about 5 minutes watching, she said, "Wow, I really think the cross-over mods you did a month ago are finally broken-in. It seems like they suddenly changed. The speakers sound really good."

    Sadly, the improvement means it is even more obvious when I am listening to a bad recording :(
    HT: Ninja Master LSi9s, Ninja Master LSiC, Slightly Modded LSiFXs, Modded LSi7s, Outlaw LFM-1 EX and Polk PSW125
    Outlaw 970 Preamp, Outlaw 7700 Amp, Velodyne SMS-1, Oppo BDP-83,
    2 APC H-15s and a Panamax 5400 for good measure ;)
    Stereo: DIY Alix Music Server, DODD Audio Battery Tube Buffer, Modded DAC-60 and MF V-Link (for now), DIY Silver ICs, Battery Powered Class D SDS-254 Amp, and GR-Research N2X Speakers
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  • skrol
    skrol Posts: 3,387
    edited October 2009
    McLoki wrote: »
    ...They said it should ship Monday (since I asked for the custom Value of 16.5) and I will post more when I get them in.

    Michael

    I was looking for 16uF but only saw 15uF or 17uF. They do custom values?
    Stan

    Main 2ch:
    Polk LSi15 (DB840 upgrade), Parasound: P/LD-1100, HCA-1000A; Denon: DVD-2910, DRM-800A; Benchmark DAC1, Monster HTS3600-MKII, Grado SR-225i; Technics SL-J2, Parasound PPH-100.

    HT:
    Marantz SR7010, Polk: RTA11TL (RDO198-1, XO and Damping Upgrades), S4, CS250, PSW110 , Marantz UD5005, Pioneer PL-530, Panasonic TC-P42S60

    Other stuff:
    Denon: DRA-835R, AVR-888, DCD-660, DRM-700A, DRR-780; Polk: S8, Monitor 5A, 5B, TSi100, RM7, PSW10 (DXi104 upgrade); Pioneer: CT-6R; Onkyo CP-1046F; Ortofon OM5E, Marantz: PM5004, CD5004, CDR-615; Parasound C/PT-600, HCA-800ii, Sony CDP-650ESD, Technics SA 5070, B&W DM601
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  • kcoc321
    kcoc321 Posts: 1,788
    edited October 2009
    skrol wrote: »
    I was looking for 16uF but only saw 15uF or 17uF. They do custom values?

    Yes SonicCap will customize to any value you want. I think they usually just charge for the next higher value.
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  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited October 2009
    kcoc321 wrote: »
    Yes SonicCap will customize to any value you want. I think they usually just charge for the next higher value.

    +1 - Thats how it works. If you want a 16uf, just tell them and they will charge you for a 17uf, but custom make you the 16uf you need.
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited January 2011
    Spam!
    Jake
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  • JimAckley
    JimAckley Posts: 1,138
    edited January 2011
    Should I be considering a different cap value in order to bring out more detail in each of my LSi speakers? I've got 7s, 25s, FXs, and a C. And I no longer see anything in your sig McLoki. I'd like to take the sides off my 7s if I could find that thread.
    - Computer Rig -
    YAΘIN MS-20L, polkaudio RT5

    - Main Rig -
    Pioneer SC-37, Overnight Sensations, Samsung 52" LCD

    - Currently In Progress -
    Curt Campbell's Uluwatu LCR, LMS Ultra Gjallarhorn, JBL W15GTi stereo subs, 2.1 entertainment system for the gf
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited February 2011
    Keep the values stock. Changing to better brand caps changes the tone. Changing the values changes the frequency response.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • McLoki
    McLoki Posts: 5,231
    edited February 2011
    Here is the link to the LSI7 side removal...

    Make sure you have the old LSi7's before you pull them off - other than that, go slow and its pretty easy.

    Michael
    Mains.............Polk LSi15 (Cherry)
    Center............Polk LSiC (Crossover upgraded)
    Surrounds.......Polk LSi7 (Gloss Black - wood sides removed and crossovers upgraded)
    Subwoofers.....SVS 25-31 CS+ and PC+ (both 20hz tune)
    Pre\Pro...........NAD T163 (Modded with LM4562 opamps)
    Amplifier.........Cinepro 3k6 (6-channel, 500wpc@4ohms)
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  • Polk&Beans
    Polk&Beans Posts: 94
    edited December 2013
    Need help for a project I am doing. Using McLoki's pic, I used paint to show some of the parts and paths.

    He did not have a clear image of the print to the speaker wire leads. It's blocked by the hook-up wire.

    It looks to be from the circuit: From top to bottom...

    Top:T-
    Mid Top:W-
    Mid Bottom:T+
    Bottom:W+

    Can someone please verify by looking at their XO board? It's printed on the beige side which would be the opposite of this image.
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  • Polk&Beans
    Polk&Beans Posts: 94
    edited December 2013
    P.S. Nice job McLoki.
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  • sk88
    sk88 Posts: 159
    edited December 2013
    This link to the schemstic may help you.
    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?38755-POLK-AUDIO-Speaker-Wiring-Schematics-amp-More-ALL-MODELS-except-SDA&p=434888&viewfull=1#post434888
    • Online - Focal Solo6 BE, Polk PSW10, Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 DSP, Lenovo x220t
    • Music/HT - Lsi25, Lsi9 (Vr3), Lsi7, LsiC, Pioneer SC-68 & BDP-62FD, PS3
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  • Polk&Beans
    Polk&Beans Posts: 94
    edited December 2013
    Thanks sk88. I found it also. Still would like a visual verification though. I got money.
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  • Polk&Beans
    Polk&Beans Posts: 94
    edited December 2013
    Bump. Anyone? The wiring form the terminal cup is definitely not the same as the board, but is the norm.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,742
    edited December 2013
    1) Back wire = tweeter negative
    2) midbass negative
    3) Tweeter plus
    4) midbass positive
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Polk&Beans
    Polk&Beans Posts: 94
    edited December 2013
    Thats what I thought the schematic terminal cup is wrong. Thanks VR3.
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  • cincycat13
    cincycat13 Posts: 882
    edited December 2013
    DSCN5147.JPG
    DSCN5146.JPG

    a little blurry, but mine are wired like this. the black negatives are on one side and the red positives the other. But after I started this post, I think you were asking about the leads from the board to the drivers so never mind...
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  • Polk&Beans
    Polk&Beans Posts: 94
    edited December 2013
    cincycat13 wrote: »
    DSCN5147.JPG
    DSCN5146.JPG

    a little blurry, but mine are wired like this. the black negatives are on one side and the red positives the other. But after I started this post, I think you were asking about the leads from the board to the drivers so never mind...

    Yep. Looking for board to driver polarities. Thanks anyway.
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