My Apologies to ComfyCurt and Others Who Helped in the Past: "R" Series Crossovers?

kuntasensei

megasat16 wrote: »

During Remastering of the movie, LFE is encoded into the normal 7 channels as it would appears to be in real life.

No. Read this article for clarification. LFE does not equal bass from the other channels.

megasat16 wrote: »

Now, if you have all Full Range Speakers, all speakers could be set to Large and plays the entire frequency for each 7 channel (i.e. from 20Hz to 20KHz) and you can turn the subwoofer channel OFF.

Not quite. With all speakers set to LARGE, there is no bass management in your AVR. That means bass from the 7 main channels in 7.1 would be sent to their individual speakers; you're correct there. The LFE channel, however, would still be sent to the subwoofer. It is completely discrete from the bass in the other channels. Now, if you DID turn the subwoofer to OFF in the AVR, most AVRs will send the LFE channel's audio to the main L and R speakers. Similarly, with subwoofer OFF, main L&R set to LARGE/FULL RANGE and all other channels crossed over at 80Hz, bass below 80Hz in the center and surrounds will be redirected to the mains for reproduction.

megasat16 wrote: »

What you are saying is that movies have LFE from all channels (below 120Hz) combined and encoded 10dB HOT into the sub channel (.1 channel)?

No. There is no LFE in the other channels. The LFE channel is a separate channel that the mixer places non-directional low frequency effects in for playback strictly from the subwoofer. This audio is boosted 10dB during decoding per Dolby's guidelines. Therefore, if your system is set to reference level, the maximum output from the main channels will be 105dB but the maximum available from the LFE channel is 115dB. This doesn't mean that LFE is mixed at a higher level, because the mixer balances that channel in the studio with the knowledge that it will get a 10dB boost at the decoding stage. The 10dB boost during decoding just gives them additional headroom to work with for low frequency effects.

megasat16 wrote: »

I am not famaliar with Onkyo term for LPF of LFE. It's very confusing when you have Low Pass Filter setting for Low Frequency Effect when I think it can simply be called Low Pass Filter Frequency or LFE frequency for subwoofer.

It's not called Low Pass Filter for subwoofer because it's not a low pass filter for the subwoofer. It only low-passes the LFE channel before redirected bass is combined with the LFE channel for output to the subwoofer. Managed bass from the other channels is not low-passed by this filter, hence the name LPF of LFE.

kuntasensei

megasat16 wrote: »

LFE = Low Frequency Effects (plays through sub channel if your speakers are set to small and your sub channel is ON in the AVR)?

If subwoofer is set to ON, the LFE channel is played back by the subwoofer regardless of whether the other channels are set to small or large. The only time it's possible for LFE to be reproduced by the L&R mains is if subwoofer is set to OFF.

kuntasensei

And just so we're clear on Onkyo's use of "LPF of LFE", a quote from my 705's manual:
"Low-Pass Filter for the LFE Channel
With this setting, you can specify the cutoff frequency of the LFE channel’s low-pass filter (LPF), which can be used to filter out unwanted hum. The LPF only applies to sources that use the LFE channel. *If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select 80 Hz (THX)."

megasat16

Kentasensei, Thank you! I read the link you provided and I am clearer about LFE track in the actual DVD. Since I use all my Full Range speakers, I used LFE out to Both (subwoofers and speakers). I think that got me mixed up about the LFE track and the crossover setting with other speakers in an AVR. I am now clear about it but I guess I made OP hell of more confused.

I think we should make things clearer for the OP about the settings what he needed.

My Yamaha, Adcom, and Parasound AVR do not have an ability to adjust LPF of LFE. I think the LFE in these AVR are played as it's decoded on the Disc when the subwoofer is ON. I think it's something Onkyo (and may be others) added to their AVR.

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

And just so we're clear on Onkyo's use of "LPF of LFE", With this setting, you can specify the cutoff frequency of the LFE channel’s low-pass filter (LPF), which can be used to filter out unwanted hum. The LPF only applies to sources that use the LFE channel. *If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select 80 Hz (THX)."

As I have known in the midst of all this, the above highlighted information from Kuntasensei is indeed confirming that this "LPF" is for FILTERING OUT UNWANTED "HUMS" not for "setting" any kind of sub rolloff or equalization...and, because my TX-SR605 ISN'T THX certified, there's no mention of leaving the LPF on "80" if using these speakers; so is 120 correct?

Now, that being said, thank you everyone for contributing to the topic, but it has indeed spiraled out of control to the point that I lost the focus of the thread; let me share my settings in my receiver and Blu-ray player so we can finally get a handle on whether these settings are correct or not...

In my Onkyo '605, the SPEAKER SETTINGS (not personal calibration values) are as follows:

SPEAKERS TYPE: Normal
SUBWOOFER: Yes
FRONT: 80Hz
CENTER: 80Hz
SURROUND: 80Hz
SURROUND BACK: None
LPF OF LFE: 120Hz

Now, of course I have the distances and calibration values set correctly based on my room and position, but let's just first make sure THESE ABOVE VALUES are correct...

Here's where a GREAT deal of controversey and confusion comes into play...when talking about how my BLU-RAY PLAYER is connected to this receiver and how ITS speaker settings are configured based on my setup...

Let me explain:

My PANASONIC DMP-BD10A Blu-ray player is a first generation deck that DOES NOT do bitstreaming of Dolby TrueHD signals, nor does it SUPPORT DTS Master Audio at all. Because of this, I have set the TrueHD output of the player to "PCM" so these tracks can be internally decoded by the Panasonic and sent as MULTICHANNEL DECODED PCM to the Onkyo '605...however, I have been told that because the player is handling the decoding of the TrueHD signals, the internal speaker setup of the BD player is crucial...

From what I understand, the Panasonic's "MULTI-CHANNEL" speaker selection in its setup menu should only be selected if you're running ANALOG AUDIO OUT from this player, which I am not -- I am running ONLY ONE HDMI CABLE from the player for audio AND video transfer -- but I later learned on AVS that this "MULTI-CHANNEL" selection should always be made if you're using three or more speakers in your system; regardless, I have selected "MULTI-CHANNEL" in the Panasonic, and then a new menu opens which asks you to set the individual speaker trims and distances, which should always be made at the receiver if everything is being BITSTREAMED...because the TrueHD signals are being decoded INTERNALLY by the Panasonic into PCM, I was told these speaker settings in the Panasonic NEED to be made...

Therefore, I was told to leave ALL speakers as LARGE in the Panasonic's speaker setup menu as well as leave all values on "0.0dB"; this way, the decoded TrueHD PCM signals will pass to my '605 UNALTERED so bass management and calibrations, etc. can be handled by the '605...is this true or accurate? Again, I am ONLY using an HDMI connection from the Panasonic Blu-ray player for audio AND video (so it's digital) but I am setting the TrueHD output of the player to "PCM" so what should those speaker values be in the player's setup menu so I make sure they're passing right to the receiver? Do these settings even matter because I'm connected DIGITALLY (HDMI)?

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

In my Onkyo '605, the SPEAKER SETTINGS (not personal calibration values) are as follows:

SPEAKERS TYPE: Normal
SUBWOOFER: Yes
FRONT: 80Hz
CENTER: 80Hz
SURROUND: 80Hz
SURROUND BACK: None
LPF OF LFE: 120Hz

Now, of course I have the distances and calibration values set correctly based on my room and position, but let's just first make sure THESE ABOVE VALUES are correct...

Yes, those values are correct for your setup. (See? I can answer without typing a freakin' book! Heh...)

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Therefore, I was told to leave ALL speakers as LARGE in the Panasonic's speaker setup menu as well as leave all values on "0.0dB"; this way, the decoded TrueHD PCM signals will pass to my '605 UNALTERED so bass management and calibrations, etc. can be handled by the '605...is this true or accurate? Again, I am ONLY using an HDMI connection from the Panasonic Blu-ray player for audio AND video (so it's digital) but I am setting the TrueHD output of the player to "PCM" so what should those speaker values be in the player's setup menu so I make sure they're passing right to the receiver? Do these settings even matter because I'm connected DIGITALLY (HDMI)?

You want all set to large and all speaker trims and distances in the player zeroed so that it isn't altering it before it sends the PCM to your AVR. Your 605 will apply the trims and distances set in the AVR to the multichannel PCM it receives (though it doesn't do so for the multichannel analog ins). Typically, those in-player settings only work for the analog outputs anyway, but... better safe than sorry if it gives you the option. Your Panny BD player likely behaves the same way that my Panny S97 DVD player does in that respect. In my case, none of those settings change anything because I'm connected via HDMI.

kuntasensei

megasat16 wrote: »

My Yamaha, Adcom, and Parasound AVR do not have an ability to adjust LPF of LFE. I think the LFE in these AVR are played as it's decoded on the Disc when the subwoofer is ON. I think it's something Onkyo (and may be others) added to their AVR.

I think only Onkyo and Denon bother giving you the option. It's really a nitpicky thing, because you will very likely not hear a difference between 80 and 120Hz LPF of LFE unless someone points out what you should listen for. While mixers don't tend to put any content above 80Hz in the LFE channel, there are harmonics above that which give those non-directional effects their tone (instead of just being a rumble).

Many AVRs will filter the entire summed subwoofer output at the highest crossover setting, which can truncate the LFE channel in the process. Having the option of not filtering the LFE channel before it is summed with the other channels simply gives you a little more flexibility with system integration and setup (though clearly it confuses the hell out of people, as is evident here).

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yes, those values are correct for your setup. (See? I can answer without typing a freakin' book! Heh...)

Thanks so much for confirming this...and who accused you of typing a book? Was that a stab at my long post? If so, I'm sorry about that!

You want all set to large and all speaker trims and distances in the player zeroed so that it isn't altering it before it sends the PCM to your AVR.

Okay, so the way I have it, speakers set to LARGE and values zeroed is correct?

Your 605 will apply the trims and distances set in the AVR to the multichannel PCM it receives (though it doesn't do so for the multichannel analog ins).

But why is this, specifically? Is it because the ANALOG multichannel ins are supposed to be already processed by the source deck it's coming in from? Why does the receiver then apply all processing to the DIGITAL HDMI in?

Typically, those in-player settings only work for the analog outputs anyway, but... better safe than sorry if it gives you the option. Your Panny BD player likely behaves the same way that my Panny S97 DVD player does in that respect. In my case, none of those settings change anything because I'm connected via HDMI.

Right -- that's what I was questioning...these players' speaker setting menus are supposed to control ANALOG connections, but because I have the player set to send decoded PCM TrueHD signals over HDMI, I wanted to be sure that menu was set right.

So, the player kind of "ignores" that menu's settings when connected DIGITALLY, as through HDMI and sends the signals unaltered anyway to the receiver?

Thanks for all your help on this...

kuntasensei

Nah, I was talking about my several long posts.

The reason your receiver won't apply distance/delay settings or crossovers to the multichannel analog inputs is because those things are done in the digital domain. Some AVRs work around this by doing an analog-to-digital conversion on the multichannel ins, but most just pass it through to the amp section the way it is. That's why your channel trims would still work, because the channel trims are not handled digitally.

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

Nah, I was talking about my several long posts.

Ahhh...OK.

The reason your receiver won't apply distance/delay settings or crossovers to the multichannel analog inputs is because those things are done in the digital domain. Some AVRs work around this by doing an analog-to-digital conversion on the multichannel ins, but most just pass it through to the amp section the way it is. That's why your channel trims would still work, because the channel trims are not handled digitally.

Okay -- I'm a bit more confused than ever here; my player is passing the decoded TrueHD as PCM DIGITALLY over HDMI, so those "speaker settings" in the player's setup menu are ignored, even though I SHOULD leave them on LARGE and 0.0dB? Are you certain this way the PCM stream should reach my AVR unaffected, where the AVR will perform bass management, distances, levels, etc?

lightman1

My subs and center sound nice....

Mike LoManaco

lightman1 wrote: »

My subs and center sound nice....

Huh???

lightman1

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Huh???

Simple..they sound nice.

Mike LoManaco

But what does that have to do with what we're talking about? That your sub/sat blend is nice and smooth, you mean?

lightman1

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

But what does that have to do with what we're talking about? That your sub/sat blend is nice and smooth, you mean?

Yes. Simple.

Mike LoManaco

Well, obviously, it wasn't that "simple" because we were wrapped up in a discussion about settings in a Blu-ray player and such, but...

lightman1

Sorry. Didn't mean to throw a curve-ball.

comfortablycurt

It made complete sense to me Russ.;)

My sub/center sound nice as well, as does the rest of my system. Just got done watching Star Wars Episode 1 as a matter of fact...sounded fantastic too.:) Gotta love that pod racing scene.

lightman1

..or stomp a thread.

lightman1

comfortablycurt wrote: »

It made complete sense to me Russ.;)

My sub/center sound nice as well, as does the rest of my system. Just got done watching Star Wars Episode 1 as a matter of fact...sounded fantastic too.:) Gotta love that pod racing scene.

One of the best pre-post production tracks in film history.

Mike and Kunta have made some nice points in AVR set up. But i listen to what I like.....

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Okay -- I'm a bit more confused than ever here; my player is passing the decoded TrueHD as PCM DIGITALLY over HDMI, so those "speaker settings" in the player's setup menu are ignored, even though I SHOULD leave them on LARGE and 0.0dB? Are you certain this way the PCM stream should reach my AVR unaffected, where the AVR will perform bass management, distances, levels, etc?

It's hard for me to say exactly how your player behaves, because I don't own the same player. However, the Pannys that I've had ignore the in-player setup when passing digital over HDMI, so it's a pretty safe bet that yours does too. Still, if you have to set it to something, at least you know LARGE with no channel trims will pass the signal without alteration so that you're not using bass management in both the player and receiver. The 605 definitely does the bass management for digital from HDMI; I'm using a 705, same deal.

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

However, the Pannys that I've had ignore the in-player setup when passing digital over HDMI, so it's a pretty safe bet that yours does too.

Yes, but with INTERNALLY DECODED PCM SIGNALS as well as bitstreamed ones? I know the in-player speaker settings are ignored when BITSTREAMING codecs, but even when TrueHD is passed as multichannel PCM decoded inside the player over HDMI the player ignores the speaker settings?

Still, if you have to set it to something, at least you know LARGE with no channel trims will pass the signal without alteration so that you're not using bass management in both the player and receiver. The 605 definitely does the bass management for digital from HDMI; I'm using a 705, same deal.

Thank you, Kuntasensei...:)

Can I ask, just out of curiosity because I had this discussion with other 600-series Onkyo owners, why does a player need to be set to, or should be set to, LARGE speaker sizes and zero value on the trims when you want a signal to pass unaltered? What is the LARGE setting "saying" to the signal, per se, to make it pass unaffected to an AVR or processor?

kuntasensei

Large = Full Range, so it doesn't use any crossover on the channels to redirect bass to the subwoofer output. That's all. That lets the signal pass unaltered to the AVR so it can apply crossovers to the original audio that's coming off the disc.

As far as internally decoded PCM signals: My Panny S97 decodes DVD-Audio internally to PCM to pass it via HDMI. Even in that case, it ignores the speaker sizes/delays. Can't imagine Panasonic would change the way they handle that, but you could always ask other users of your particular model over at AVS if you want direct experience.

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

Large = Full Range, so it doesn't use any crossover on the channels to redirect bass to the subwoofer output. That's all. That lets the signal pass unaltered to the AVR so it can apply crossovers to the original audio that's coming off the disc.

As far as internally decoded PCM signals: My Panny S97 decodes DVD-Audio internally to PCM to pass it via HDMI. Even in that case, it ignores the speaker sizes/delays. Can't imagine Panasonic would change the way they handle that, but you could always ask other users of your particular model over at AVS if you want direct experience.

Gotcha.