Interesting read...

[Deleted User]

Here's a link that members might enjoy:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/kimber-kable-8pr/kk4pr-8prmeasurements
Regards, Ken

Pauly

Thanks Ken.

This should bring up some interesting opinions.


Pauly

[Deleted User]

My thoughts exactly, Pauly.
I've got my trench helmet on, gas mask nearby with new canister and waiting for the first salvo.
Ken

dkg999

Way to go Ken, just take a baseball bat to the hornet's nest

[Deleted User]

Yea, you're right 999, I guess my Nobel peace prize chances just went out the window!
Maybe this will promote a reasonable approach to this subject? Cool heads, open minds? People saying, "you know, maybe you've got something there.." or , "I can understand your point".
Or, am I crazy?

Pauly

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

Yea, you're right 999, I guess my Nobel peace prize chances just went out the window!
Maybe this will promote a reasonable approach to this subject? Cool heads, open minds? People saying, "you know, maybe you've got something there.." or , "I can understand your point".
Or, am I crazy?

Crazy, just plain Crazy

;-)

Pauly

treitz3

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

People saying, "you know, maybe you've got something there.." or , "I can understand your point".

One can hope, eh? It would be refreshing for a change to actually have a discussion about this subject without the.........well, you know.

[Deleted User]

We can only hope, Treitz3.
There has to be, first of all, some kind of common ground. A realization that, while some people, aren't able to hear differences in passive components that there are those that do. This could be explained by the particular combination of associated equipment. Any sound system, no matter how humble or grand, is a tuned chain of many individual sub-systems. Each one more or less susceptible to the small differences in the links before. Some speakers, for example, might be effected by subtle characteristics of what the speaker wire is doing while others are not.
But, if we acknowledge that these subtle differences could be audible and then try to quantify them and determine how they affect the final sound everyone benefits.
I think there needs to be less pseudo-science claims, things that cause engineers and others to cringe and damn everyone who is trying to make something sound better. It's a tough balancing act, but there needs to be a bit of scientific approach combined with a healthy respect for those who are very dedicated to how they reproduce music in their homes.
Ken

BlueFox

So what is the problem with this article? Is somebody going to contest their measurements? They are not making any audio claims, just stating the facts. Then again, we all know people who do not let the facts get in the way of their opinion.

[Deleted User]

Hello BlueFox,
I don't believe anyone indicated there was a problem with the article. However, if someone posted a thread, on this forum, that they were using "XYZ" speaker wire with their "BVD" speakers and they tried an equal length of Kimber 8TC and heard an improvement in the way things seemed to sound. Is it possible they were reacting to the difference in lower level of inductance that the new wire had? Or, was the person just imagining they heard something, fooling themselves into believing what they want.
Or, if they made the same change, but didn't hear any changes. Is it possible that their speakers don't happen to be effected by the inductance differences between wires? Or, would we say that they were not true audiophiles and weren't adept at "golden ear" listening.
I believe mistakes are made on both sides of the issues and there has to be more acceptance by both camps.
Ken

engtaz

Read that article.

madmax

Finally, the voice of reason!
madmax

Pauly

madmax wrote: »

Finally, the voice of reason!
madmax

+1


Pauly

markmarc

Good measurement review.

I believe their can be a happy medium between measurements and listening.

hearingimpared

ahhhhhhhhh WHILE breathing a sigh of relief. Too bad our 54 page SPEARKER cable thread came before this thread.

Thanks for the info Ken.

[Deleted User]

My pleasure...!
A moment of clear skies and gentle winds blew over the audio village. Children played on swings and see-saws while adults listened to symphonies and acoustic guitar recordings on well made audio equipment; both vacuum tube and solid state. Men with corner loaded horn speakers stopped and shook hands with fellow men who enjoyed planar type speakers. Wise heads nodding all around as differences became less important than the beauty of the music they played.
The vinyl playing sheep laid down with the digital lion and the sun shone warmly on them all.
Enjoy, Ken

reeltrouble1

then they all awoke from this dream, realized they were naked, decided Life is Suck and promptly killed each other.

I wish I was at Polk HQ today, there is apparently some great smoke in the air or something special mixed in the latte's.

RT1

BlueFox

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

My pleasure...!
A moment of clear skies and gentle winds blew over the audio village. Children played on swings and see-saws while adults listened to symphonies and acoustic guitar recordings on well made audio equipment; both vacuum tube and solid state. Men with corner loaded horn speakers stopped and shook hands with fellow men who enjoyed planar type speakers. Wise heads nodding all around as differences became less important than the beauty of the music they played.
The vinyl playing sheep laid down with the digital lion and the sun shone warmly on them all.
Enjoy, Ken

Wow! Was anyone using LSi speakers with an AVR?

Pauly

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

My pleasure...!
A moment of clear skies and gentle winds blew over the audio village. Children played on swings and see-saws while adults listened to symphonies and acoustic guitar recordings on well made audio equipment; both vacuum tube and solid state. Men with corner loaded horn speakers stopped and shook hands with fellow men who enjoyed planar type speakers. Wise heads nodding all around as differences became less important than the beauty of the music they played.
The vinyl playing sheep laid down with the digital lion and the sun shone warmly on them all.
Enjoy, Ken

No Butterflies or cute puppies?


Pauly

organ

Interesting. Thanks Ken.

Whenever I read about cables and measurements, I always think of the Polk Audio Cobra cable. Those cables make some SS amps blow up. I got a very loud hum with one SS amp.
I can't wait get them re-terminated. The most dangerous speaker cables lol.

CoolJazz

And while we watch the pigs fly by on their feathery wings....

Consider this guys comments posted on Audiogon when he switched from Kimber to Analysis Audio...

It didn't take a ton of back and forth to hear a tiny little difference. I heard it on the first cymbal crash/splash. I heard the fundamental and separately I heard a detailed series of harmonics. Next, the bass did the same thing. I could hear the fundamental absolutely rock solid and harmonics stood out separately. It was like hearing 8 or so separate tones, stacked together, yet separated and detailed.

Dynamics were pretty much the same as was overall timbre. Almost all the difference was in this detail. The bass seemed more "solid" but it was NOT louder. With the Kimber, the fundamental wasn't as focused and clear, but instead it smeared slightly with its harmonics. That off center sound made bass tones seem less powerful, focused and solid.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?rcabl&1200714157&read&3&4&[/URL]

So why is that he readily heard a difference...first on highs? Is that due to greater guage conductor? The harmonics being easier to identify...is that less capacitance?

IMHO....the part the simple DC and AC resistance and impedance measurements miss is the complex effects of real music. You have magnetic and vibrational things happen which is why different construction methods have effects on the results. Maybe if we listened regularly to sine waves and measured SPL, then simple resistance measurements would better correspond to the results. I happen to prefer listening to music, myself! :cool:

We recently had the opportunity to look at some Cardas speaker wire construction while reterminating. Very interesting was the way it was wrapped with tightly wound in fiberous material in obvious attempt to control vibration.

That low-fi guaranteed web-rag regularly tries to go to the lowest quality, simpliest explanations. They attempt to explain by simplification, instead of trying to just let the ear be the judge. Note his mention of using zip cord. Clearly he's not even concerned about the effects of multi-strand wire that has no isolation between conductors. No high purity of metal, no less effect jacket material is going to be able to overcome the smear that comes from that type of construction! This is the "noise for music that is a reasonable representation of the orginal event is good enough for me" attitude. And lets be happy for him that he's happy with that...

And as a parting thought...why is that the detractors of better cabling making a difference, always assume that people that know better must want to spend great sums of money for their cables? If it's all wished for difference, then wouldn't you want it to be cheaper cable?

CoolJazz

TECHNOKID

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

Hello BlueFox,
I don't believe anyone indicated there was a problem with the article. However, if someone posted a thread, on this forum, that they were using "XYZ" speaker wire with their "BVD" speakers and they tried an equal length of Kimber 8TC and heard an improvement in the way things seemed to sound. Is it possible they were reacting to the difference in lower level of inductance that the new wire had? Or, was the person just imagining they heard something, fooling themselves into believing what they want.
Or, if they made the same change, but didn't hear any changes. Is it possible that their speakers don't happen to be effected by the inductance differences between wires? Or, would we say that they were not true audiophiles and weren't adept at "golden ear" listening.
I believe mistakes are made on both sides of the issues and there has to be more acceptance by both camps.
Ken

Humm, very well said! I like your wisdom, attitude and positiveness! One can go very far with such proactive discussion. Open minded and respectfull!!!

TECHNOKID

hearingimpared wrote: »

ahhhhhhhhh while breathing a sigh of relief. Too bad our 54 page spearker cable thread came before this thread.

Thanks for the info ken.

+1!!!!

TECHNOKID

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

My pleasure...!
A moment of clear skies and gentle winds blew over the audio village. Children played on swings and see-saws while adults listened to symphonies and acoustic guitar recordings on well made audio equipment; both vacuum tube and solid state. Men with corner loaded horn speakers stopped and shook hands with fellow men who enjoyed planar type speakers. Wise heads nodding all around as differences became less important than the beauty of the music they played.
The vinyl playing sheep laid down with the digital lion and the sun shone warmly on them all.
Enjoy, Ken

Some kind of a poet too

Systems

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

My pleasure...!
A moment of clear skies and gentle winds blew over the audio village. Children played on swings and see-saws while adults listened to symphonies and acoustic guitar recordings on well made audio equipment; both vacuum tube and solid state. Men with corner loaded horn speakers stopped and shook hands with fellow men who enjoyed planar type speakers. Wise heads nodding all around as differences became less important than the beauty of the music they played.
The vinyl playing sheep laid down with the digital lion and the sun shone warmly on them all.
Enjoy, Ken

Your painting a picture reminiscent of the traquil scene before Bambi meets Godzilla.:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAVYYe87b9w

Jed Leland

Hello,
What a good read! Everyone behaving like reasonable people, I've not seen much of this on other forums. Mostly back biting and rancor. A different group of people here at Polk, must be all the exposure to good audio!
I wish I was an artist to draw the "...vinyl playing sheep" and "digital lion", what an image!
I raise my glass to you all!
Jed

madmax

Jed Leland wrote: »

Hello,
What a good read! Everyone behaving like reasonable people, I've not seen much of this on other forums.

We pride ourselves on being open to all forms of reasoning when it comes to wires, cables, accessories and tweeks.
madmax