SR 6500: Tweeter Location & Axis Question

arun1963

dirthog wrote: »

Arun, remember that car audio is a different beast and what works for one person or another might not work for you. Different cars, speakers, speaker locations, install, seat material, center consoles, personal preference and more all determine the final outcome.

So we can say this is how something is or usually is and it may be that way but you need to follow what you hear.

Oh I wasnt questioning what mac said. Heck, I use the settings from mac's tuning sheets he posted in the sq thread as a ref point. The settings may not be identical but the theme is and the sound focuses up very well. For the frequencies that i control, what mac attenuates for the left I do to and vice versa.

Some frequencies like 5khz, 500 & 800 hz which mac runs close for l/r are what I struggle with sometimes. On some cd's 5kz sounds best equal for l/r and on some cd's it soounds better slightly higher on the left. Same story with 500 & 800. Dont know if this is a recording iissue or a positional issue.

I also understand abt the diff in interiors and how that impacts sound. I normally go with whats sound best. But the mind always wants to know why :rolleyes:

arun1963

Still struggling with the active mode. Can't get the mids to play in NW mode. Dan I have a couple of questions

1. In NW mode, do you have the ability to fade front and back?

2. Why would the mids only play in std mode and not in NW? At this point I'm willing to try anything :rolleyes:

3. Could the passive xovers which are still in the signal path, be causing this? I dont think so but...........the passive xover splits the signal at 2.6khz and it should continue to do that. It should not cause the mids to stop playing.

This eve when I get back I'll switch the mids to the front ch and the tweets to the rear and see if that does anything

Have also sent a mail to pioneer cs explaining the problem. Lets see if they can shed any light.

dirthog

arun1963 wrote: »

Oh I wasnt questioning what mac said. Heck, I use the settings from mac's tuning sheets he posted in the sq thread as a ref point. The settings may not be identical but the theme is and the sound focuses up very well. For the frequencies that i control, what mac attenuates for the left I do to and vice versa.

Some frequencies like 5khz, 500 & 800 hz which mac runs close for l/r are what I struggle with sometimes. On some cd's 5kz sounds best equal for l/r and on some cd's it soounds better slightly higher on the left. Same story with 500 & 800. Dont know if this is a recording iissue or a positional issue.

I also understand abt the diff in interiors and how that impacts sound. I normally go with whats sound best. But the mind always wants to know why :rolleyes:

What works for Mac or anyone else might not work for you. Yes, use other peoples settings as a reference but you have to tune your completely different setup differently. Go to one of these websites and download the 16 frequencies that you can adjust.

http://binkster.net/extras.shtml
http://marchandelec.com/sweeps.html

Assuming you have every other aspect of the tuning correct, listed previously. Play each frequency to see if it's centered in your stage. If it's left of center lower the left side frequency and raise the right an equal amount until its centered. This will help equalize the frequencies of each side. You can also use these to level each frequency for a flat response.


Every CD, or track for that matter, is not recorded equally. It's a person with personal taste mixing the records. What speakers was he/she listening to when they were mixing the track? What was the quality of equipment used to record the music? What environment did they record in? What level was it recorder at? Basically I'm saying each recording is different and you have tune with recorded music.

arun1963 wrote: »

Still struggling with the active mode. Can't get the mids to play in NW mode. Dan I have a couple of questions

1. In NW mode, do you have the ability to fade front and back?

2. Why would the mids only play in std mode and not in NW? At this point I'm willing to try anything :rolleyes:

3. Could the passive xovers which are still in the signal path, be causing this? I dont think so but...........the passive xover splits the signal at 2.6khz and it should continue to do that. It should not cause the mids to stop playing.

This eve when I get back I'll switch the mids to the front ch and the tweets to the rear and see if that does anything

Have also sent a mail to pioneer cs explaining the problem. Lets see if they can shed any light.

In network mode there is NO FRONT TO BACK. It should be tweeters L&R, mid L&R and sub L&R(with the option to go mono).

I believe I already said REMOVE THE PASSIVE CROSSOVERS. You don't use them for active.

Go back to network mode, reset the deck with the pin hole on the front and run through all of the settings. Make sure the mids aren't muted.


I don't want to walk you through every step of the way when you haven't even done the research for yourself. Read the manual and use google to figure something out and if that fails then I'm more than willing to help but I don't want to hold your hand. Most of your questions are covered in the manual.

arun1963

ok ok, dont get mad

What works for Mac or anyone else might not work for you. Yes, use other peoples settings as a reference but you have to tune your completely different setup differently. Go to one of these websites and download the 16 frequencies that you can adjust.

http://binkster.net/extras.shtml
http://marchandelec.com/sweeps.html

Thats what I do. I use Mac's settings as a ref guide. I already have the test tones from binkster. Remember you told me to download them many moons ago....Havent run them for a while so will try them again at the current settings and see if any changes need to be made.

Every CD, or track for that matter, is not recorded equally. It's a person with personal taste mixing the records. What speakers was he/she listening to when they were mixing the track? What was the quality of equipment used to record the music? What environment did they record in? What level was it recorder at? Basically I'm saying each recording is different and you have tune with recorded music.

Very true. Its a royal PIA trying to hit the sweet spot with each cd / track. Its frustrating at times cause you spend more time tuning than listening to the damn music. :rolleyes:

In network mode there is NO FRONT TO BACK. It should be tweeters L&R, mid L&R and sub L&R(with the option to go mono).

Yes I figured that one out this eve. In NW mode you use the gain control to fade to mids / tweets / sub.

I believe I already said REMOVE THE PASSIVE CROSSOVERS. You don't use them for active.

I know you have to remove the passive xover. Its just that by the time I got the lens fixed last eve the shop that does the installs was closed for the day. Thats why they were left in. I wasnt going to do it myself cause I dont trust myself to do it properly.

I don't want to walk you through every step of the way when you haven't even done the research for yourself. Read the manual and use google to figure something out and if that fails then I'm more than willing to help but I don't want to hold your hand. Most of your questions are covered in the manual.

I read the relevant parts of the manual a few times today. Things are clearer.

Oh and by the way, on the way back from work I stopped in at the install shop and got him to switch the mids to front ch and tweets to rear chanels. Switched back to NW mode, did the reset.......It works now! I have the tweets the sub and the mids. Got the installer to remove the passives and I'm fully active now. Thanks for your patience and help. Will post a little later with the initial reaction to going active.

arun1963

I don't know why flipping the mids and tweets at the amp resolved the issue, just happy that it did. On a side note, earlier in the day I had sent a mail to pioneer cs in singapore re the issue. Around 4pm I got a call from a local company they have just appointed as their distributor **** service provider for India, asking if they could help. Nice touch.

The first thing that struck me about going active, was the clarity of sound. 24db/oct for the mids from the hu, are any day better than 12+12. (12 from the hu+12 from the amp). 36db for the sub and the bass sounds completely different. With the passives, a lpf at 50db on a 18db slope, meant that I was hearing 80&100 as well. The initial hit would be up-front but the tail which I guess was the 80+hz would give away the subs location at the back. Now on a 36db slope there is no tail....its tight and all upfront.

I tried various settings for the sub/mid xover points. For now I'm going with sub cutoff at 50hz @ 36db and mids hp at 63hz @ 24db slope. The momo mids play with clarity till 50hz. Below that they start to struggle and they are easily located. Steep slopes seem to work well at the sub/mid xover point.

It seems things are different at the other end. For the mid/tweet xover point shallower slopes seem to help with blending and clarity. I have the mids lp at 3.15khz @ 18db/oct and the tweets hp at 4khz on a 12db slope. I can now bump up the 5khz-12khz range, to really open up the top end without any harshness creeping in.

The above is based on about 2 hrs worth of listening. Any tips/tricks for active mode would be greatly appreciated. Once again, thank you dan for all your help. I would not be here if it were'nt for you.

arun1963

Noise Problems.

Last evening I had gone fully active, w/o a problem. This evening when I switched on the ignition the speakers made a popping sound and when i cranked the engine, there was engine noise.

1. Checked the grounding and thats secure.
2. Reconnected the passive xovers and the noise was gone.

Drove to the installer and asked him to add noise surpressors. Removed the passive xover put in the supressors and there is still noise. Even with the engine off. Hiss crackle and some popping.

So I'm back to passive mode

1. Do the momo xovers have built in noise surpressors?
2. What could be the cause and what is the solution?

Tks a ton in advance

MacLeod

If you have noise ONLY when the active crossover is hooked up then obviously the problem is there. Either its not hooked up properly, the ground is bad or its a faulty unit.

arun1963

MacLeod wrote: »

If you have noise ONLY when the active crossover is hooked up then obviously the problem is there. Either its not hooked up properly, the ground is bad or its a faulty unit.

Here is a comprehensive list of issues identified. When asking for a solution I should have all the facts first. FMS syndrome.

1. There is noise in Both modes. Its less in passive mode but its there. I just have to listen carefully to hear it. Also the noise kills the stage. So this is the first issue.

2. From the HU fader, if I fade left, it cuts the left side and plays the right side speakers. So something is reversed.

3. If take volume past 35 out of 62, the 500.4 clips and cuts the momo comps. The sub continues to play. If I turn the volume down a bit, after a couple of seconds the comps play again. If the hu was clipping it would cut the sub as well, I think.

I have rechecked the grounds and the ground connection is secure. I hate these damn incompetent installers here. My baby is sick and I dont know whats wrong.

There is one installer in town who does custom installs on the top end cars. Porches, Bimers etc. He charges an arm and a leg however he does a really clean job and he is a sq nut himself. I have seen some of his installs and they are excellent and clean.

Mac, if u read this post, I would really appreciate your opinion on what the problems are so that I can visit this guy tmrw. I would like your views before I visit him because, I trust your word over whatever he may have to say.

Tks a ton in advance.

Toxis

What kind of "noise" is it? Is it a whine, almost whistle like that varies in tone when you rev the engine? Or is it more like a hiss like you're tuning into a bad radio station and it doesnt' vary in pitch with the motor?

MacLeod

arun1963 wrote: »

2. From the HU fader, if I fade left, it cuts the left side and plays the right side speakers. So something is reversed.

3. If take volume past 35 out of 62, the 500.4 clips and cuts the momo comps. The sub continues to play. If I turn the volume down a bit, after a couple of seconds the comps play again. If the hu was clipping it would cut the sub as well, I think.

If the speaker wires or RCA's are not reversed then theyre shorting to ground somewhere. Something is loose somewhere. If your grounds are secure start checking the speaker leads and make sure theyre not cut anywhere or any of the terminations are touching bare metal.

Toxis

I would unhook the speaker wire from your left speaker and touch the leads to a AA battery. If the left speaker pops, you know the wires are hooked up correctly. If it pops the right, go back to the installers and get money back.

As for the amp shutting off, could be a couple things. It's most likely overheating which means it's just protecting itself. Make sure it has plenty of ventilation. If it's warm or hot (but not burn your skin hot), it's most likely your gain levels are set incorrectly. Either way, i would double check those levels. Easy way for someone without all the proper equipment to set them is to get a small flat head screw driver and go somewhere you can jam the system without getting in trouble. First turn the gains all the way down. Then turn the car on, turn the radio to a volume number you want to use as your "max." The radio goes to 62, so I would say 50 or 55. Then go turn your gains back up till they reach the point of distortion or enough volume for your liking; whichever comes first! Then back the gains back down a touch. If you set the volume at 55, even with the gains backed off a bit, just remember to not go over 50 to protect your speakers. Hope this helps!!

arun1963

tks mac n toxis. Had left for the install place before I got your replies. Some of what youll mentioned was done. Let me work back wards from current status:

1. Noise is gone, so is my ability to control each driver independently. Everything else seems fixed. No Noise, no amp clipping, etc. I want to be in bi-amp passive mode, but I am not. Mids hooked to front ch and tweets to rear ch. Going back to the fader, when I fade all the way forward I should hear only the mids, but I hear the mids and tweets. When I fade all the way back I hear nothing but the sub. I think fading left and right is also messed up.

2. Will try and outline the signal path for any obvious mistakes. Will also cover what happened today.

A. HU-->4ch and mono Amps: Replaced the old rca's with pairs of stingers. One pair running to the 4ch amp and one to the sub. To biamp, do i need to run 2pairs to the 4 ch amp? The one going to the mono connects directly to the amp. The one to the 4ch amp connects into an interconnect cable which has two female pins at one end to take the stinger and 4 males at the other end to connect to the amp. A pair of wires is going out of each female end and the pair is not shielded, at least it doesnt look shielded in the limited light available at 1am

B. 4ch Amp to xover : From the amp, front ch connected to mids and rears to tweets of the xovers. For now I cant trace the wires from xover outs to the individual drivers. polarity looks good. Xovers in dual mode.

C. Power and Grounding setup: Main power cable from the battery runs into a newly installed audison conection fuse distributor with two outs one to each amp. Grounding done on a new point on the back seat after filing off paint from the area and ground point connected into another audison ground terminal. Also the signal from the hu is grounded upfront before feeding it to the stingers. I'm not sure about this, but this how the installer explained it.

My sunday was shot trying to resolve the issue. Had to wait 4 hours before they got started on my car. They did a clean job on the install with everything now on a 3/4" carpeted mdf board, screwed on to the back seat/ All wiring from behind the board. The guy who runs the place wasnt there but I spoke to him on thephone and he explained the job to the installers. Obviously something slipped in this game of chinese whisper. :rolleyes:

Any idea on whats wrong? As always thanks for your help.

Arun

arun1963

Ran an extra pair of RCA's to connect hu rear to amp rear channel. Both pairs of RCA's connected directly to the amp. Got rid of the silly interconnect I spent so much time detailing in the post above, written at 4am.

And for all of you'll laughing your **s off at my stupidity (half of me is still laughing), I'll say this much. There are two sides to the brain one that puts together a stable and accurate signal path and the other that creates and sets the sound stage, which is the ulimate objective.

I feel the stingers are giving a stronger signal to the amp. Previous RCA's were some generic chinese variety. With the stingers I get the same volume at 42 that would get at 50 with the old ones. Also sound is clearer.

tks mac n toxis.

dirthog

You do need a total of 3 pairs or RCA's. One pair for mids, tweeters and sub.

Be careful of hot swaping(Hu with power) the RCA's at the Hu because the output of the Hu was not designed well and it will blow a pico fuse inside. This will cause a hiss that can only be removed by having the Hu serviced.

arun1963

It sounds like I need to pull out the hu and check for what is connected where. I know the front and rear out at the p80 is connected to the frnt/rear 4 ch amp. I dont know exactly where the sub is conned to the hu. Hot swapping went over my head.

Toxis

he's just saying make sure the car is turned off when hooking everything up. If there's signal flowing, trouble brews!

arun1963

Toxis wrote: »

he's just saying make sure the car is turned off when hooking everything up. If there's signal flowing, trouble brews!

Tks. Rewiring was done with the car keys in my pocket. Tks Dan.

Question : Is it ok to flip the rca cables at the amp input if I need to? IE to switch the mids and tweets between front and rear?

Toxis

I'd run the tweets as fronts and mids as rears... that's how the radio should work (pending it is exactly like the 880/800).

arun1963

Toxis wrote: »

I'd run the tweets as fronts and mids as rears... that's how the radio should work (pending it is exactly like the 880/800).

Thats the funny thingThe unit has 2 modes std and network where you are active. In std mode i had the tweets on the front channel and the mids on rears. When I switch to NW mode and reset the HU, it only plays the tweets and sub. No mids. When I swap the mids to front and tweets to rear it plays all drivers. Havent been able to figure this one.

This is exactly the reason I asked, if I could safely swap the f/r rca's at the amp.

dirthog

arun1963 wrote: »

Tks. Rewiring was done with the car keys in my pocket. Tks Dan.

Question : Is it ok to flip the rca cables at the amp input if I need to? IE to switch the mids and tweets between front and rear?

Disconnect any power going the Hu, not just having the key off.

It is ok to swap them at the Hu. You need to make sure you have them correct or the tweeters will probably blow.

dirthog

arun1963 wrote: »

Thats the funny thingThe unit has 2 modes std and network where you are active. In std mode i had the tweets on the front channel and the mids on rears. When I switch to NW mode and reset the HU, it only plays the tweets and sub. No mids. When I swap the mids to front and tweets to rear it plays all drivers. Havent been able to figure this one.

This is exactly the reason I asked, if I could safely swap the f/r rca's at the amp.

Never run tweeters and mids seperatly in std mode. Theres no HPF for the tweeters in std mode which will result in a blown tweeter.

Did you have the passive crossover still connected when you where in NW mode?

Sorry, I didn't want to come off as mad. Sometimes I get on here at work when I'm stressed out and my mind is not very patient.

dirthog

OK, I think we need to start from the top. Everything we cover from here is in Network mode and we aren't using the passive crossovers at all. Put those things back in the box.:D

The Hu/RCA's: The front RCA's coming from the Hu run the mids, rear RCA's run the tweeters. I had a chance to pull my Hu to look at this.

Run the Left Mid (left front) RCA into channel 1 and Right Mid (right front) RCA into channel 2 of the amp.

Next, run the left tweeter(left rear) into channel 3 and right tweeter (right rear) into channel 4 of the amp. Turn the gain down for these two channels at the amp.

Speaker wires: Run channel 1 speaker wire from the amp directly to the left mid and channel 2 directly to the right mid.

Channel 3 speaker wire will run directly to the left tweeter and channel 4 will run directly to the right tweeter.

All crossovers on the amp need to be turned off.

Once we have this configured correctly you should have sound from all of the speakers. Let me know if this works.

Remember: Don't hot swap and keep the volume low, for now.

arun1963

hi dan,

Am in NW mode and the front ch of the amp are driving the mids and the rears are driving the tweets. Just like your connections.

For some reason if I flip the connections ie mids on rears and tweets on fronts in NW mode, it cuts out the mids. Yes I'm bi-amped and active. am finally able to seperate the sub / mids / tweets.

Yes I control all 4 drivers independantly. Settings as follows:

sub lpf : 50 hz @ 36 db slope from the hu, bypass from the amp
mid hpf : 63 hz @24db slope
mid lpf : 3.15 @ 18 db slope
tweet hpf ; 4.00khz @ 12 db slope.

This gives great imaging.

arun1963

When I switch to NW mode and reset the HU, it only plays the tweets and sub. No mids. When I swap the mids to front and tweets to rear it plays all drivers. Havent been able to figure this one.

hi dan,

I think the above captioned sentence has caused all the confusion. I should have explained better. Hope this clears it up.

1. When I switch from NW to STD mode I always re-connect the xovers. I dont just switch modes from the HU. Like wise if I go from std to NW I disconnect the xover. Why do I do this? I did it a couple of times after going active just to compare the two sounds. I wont be doing it anymore. Am convinced active is much better.

2. When I had tried to go active the first time (and screwed things up), what I should have done is just taken the speaker wire connected to each driver, directly to the amp (tweets to front and mids to rear). Instead, like a true blue technical idiot, I pulled the ends of tweeter in and tweeter out from xover and connected these and so on for all the drivers. I put in a joint in the path where there should not have been any joint. I hate doing any install / connection work cause I suck at it so bad. But I'm decent at tuning. One half of the brain is stronger than the other

3. Currently there is no switch between my battery and the hu/amp, so you are right even when I take the key out of the ignition the curret from the battery would be flowing to the amp and the HU. Oh brother, another install upgrade nightmare comming up.......:rolleyes: :eek: Next time I get any install work done I'll get the battery disconnected first. Tks.

One thing that hasnt worked out for me is variable slopes on left and right side. When I do this, I really struggle with the staging. Eg If I keep the mid hp point at 24db for left and 18db for right the stage feels like it's higher on the left and lower on the right ie it slopes. I tried using the eq for left/right to correct this it didnt work out. So I keep left/right slopes the same but yes my mid hp is steeper than my mid lp.

Seperating the mids from the sub and the tweet from the mid makes the sound cleaner. The sound is a lot quieter. The xover points sub to mid and mid to tweet are a lot calmer. Eg I cut my mid lp at 3.15 and tweet hp at 4. To cover this gap I give shallower slopes from both mid lp and tweet hp as mentioned in my previous post. With a bit of eq' the results are really good. Clean airy sound .

dirthog

arun1963 wrote: »

hi dan,

Am in NW mode and the front ch of the amp are driving the mids and the rears are driving the tweets. Just like your connections.

For some reason if I flip the connections ie mids on rears and tweets on fronts in NW mode, it cuts out the mids. Yes I'm bi-amped and active. am finally able to seperate the sub / mids / tweets.

You can't be active and bi-amped at the same time.

bi-amped = use the passive crossovers
active = don't use the passive crossovers

I don't know why you would want the rear RCA's running the mids and the fronts running the Tweeters. You don't have the correct HPF to protect the tweeters = blown tweeter. If you have the RCA's in this configuration and have the passive crossover connected you won't hear anything from the mids. Reason is because your deck and passive crossover are cutting out any sound trying to get to the mids.

Yes I control all 4 drivers independantly. Settings as follows:

sub lpf : 50 hz @ 36 db slope from the hu, bypass from the amp
mid hpf : 63 hz @24db slope
mid lpf : 3.15 @ 18 db slope
tweet hpf ; 4.00khz @ 12 db slope.

This gives great imaging.

arun1963 wrote: »

hi dan,

I think the above captioned sentence has caused all the confusion. I should have explained better. Hope this clears it up.

1. When I switch from NW to STD mode I always re-connect the xovers. I dont just switch modes from the HU. Like wise if I go from std to NW I disconnect the xover. Why do I do this? I did it a couple of times after going active just to compare the two sounds. I wont be doing it anymore. Am convinced active is much better.

The passive crossover sets the HPF/slope for the tweeters and LPF/slope for the mids and it can not be adjusted.

When you go active(never use the passive crossover when active) the Hu sets the HPF/slope for the tweeters and LPF/slope for the mids, plus additional filters and settings. If you have the passive crossover still connected, the Hu and passive crossover are trying to do the same thing which will not help you in achieving great sound.

Unlike the passive crossover the Hu's crossover points and slopes can be adjusted allowing for more tunning options to achieve the best sound.

2. When I had tried to go active the first time (and screwed things up), what I should have done is just taken the speaker wire connected to each driver, directly to the amp (tweets to front and mids to rear). Instead, like a true blue technical idiot, I pulled the ends of tweeter in and tweeter out from xover and connected these and so on for all the drivers. I put in a joint in the path where there should not have been any joint. I hate doing any install / connection work cause I suck at it so bad. But I'm decent at tuning. One half of the brain is stronger than the other

3. Currently there is no switch between my battery and the hu/amp, so you are right even when I take the key out of the ignition the curret from the battery would be flowing to the amp and the HU. Oh brother, another install upgrade nightmare comming up.......:rolleyes: :eek: Next time I get any install work done I'll get the battery disconnected first. Tks.

One thing that hasnt worked out for me is variable slopes on left and right side. When I do this, I really struggle with the staging. Eg If I keep the mid hp point at 24db for left and 18db for right the stage feels like it's higher on the left and lower on the right ie it slopes. I tried using the eq for left/right to correct this it didnt work out. So I keep left/right slopes the same but yes my mid hp is steeper than my mid lp.

Keep trying different setting until it all starts to fall into place.

Seperating the mids from the sub and the tweet from the mid makes the sound cleaner. The sound is a lot quieter. The xover points sub to mid and mid to tweet are a lot calmer. Eg I cut my mid lp at 3.15 and tweet hp at 4. To cover this gap I give shallower slopes from both mid lp and tweet hp as mentioned in my previous post. With a bit of eq' the results are really good. Clean airy sound .

Hope this helps.

arun1963

Hi Dan,

Some questions and some comments

You can't be active and bi-amped at the same time.

As I understand it, bi amping is giving each driver an independent amp channel. The 4 drivers are now connected directly to the 4 amp channels. I'm in network mode at the hu with xovers out of the path. So Would'nt I be active and bi-amped?

If you have the RCA's in this configuration and have the passive crossover connected you won't hear anything from the mids. Reason is because your deck and passive crossover are cutting out any sound trying to get to the mids.

While in passive mode, I always had my tweets connected to fronts and mids to rear through the xover. When I first tried to go active and connect the drivers directly to the amp, this is how I hooked up the drivers. Due to the way I hooked it up (use of connector / joint) there were severe noise/ static problems, the amp was clipping etc etc. When I redid the install, I changed the rca's to stingers and again I connected the tweets directly to the front amp ch and mids on rear bypassing the xovers and the mids didnt play. I then disconnected all the drivers and re-connected the tweets to the rear ch and mids to fronts and I flipped the rca's at the amp. It worked. That is how it is hooked up now. I can try putting it the other way just to see if it plays now, but I really want to avoid touching the setup.

I dont know if the noise bit tripped something in the hu. Are there any iissues with this setup?