Toe-in

organ
organ Posts: 4,969
edited May 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
Just something that's been bothering me for a long time.

EVERY speaker I've had in my rig sound their best when toed in so the drivers would face my ears. I noticed that no toe in or very little of it gives me a larger sense of space. But I lose definition, focus and image. It just never sounds right with no toe-in.

Now, when I see pics of some really high end stuff (people's personal set ups, CES, HES, etc), why is it that MOST of them have their speakers facing straight forward??? Are some speakers designed to sound better off axies? I find this weird because drivers should have their flattest response on-axies, right? Do a lot of people like that 'spacey' effect of off axis?

I'm still quite puzzled:confused::confused::confused:
Post edited by organ on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

Comments

  • venomclan
    venomclan Posts: 2,467
    edited May 2009
    Nice setup Z.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tcrossma
    tcrossma Posts: 1,301
    edited May 2009
    My LSi15's sound best *to me* when facing straight forward. Toe-ing them in doesn't really hurt them much, but it doesn't improve things and to me it collapses the soundstage a little bit.
    Speakers: Polk LSi15
    Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
    Amp: Pass Labs X-150
    CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
    Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
    Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
    TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
    Cartridge:Denon DL-160
    Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited May 2009
    I've noticed a wider soundstage (less toe in) vs a deeper soundstage (more toe in).
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • thuffman03
    thuffman03 Posts: 1,325
    edited May 2009
    I think it really depends on the room. I had a set of speakers that sounded good toed in and then with my new set sound better not toed. The best thing to do is to move them around and find out what sounds best to you. That all that matters is when you listen to them and it sounds good to you. To toe or not to toe, 1' away from wall or 18" to 4" away. Everyone is different and every room is different. It took me about 2 weeks of moving my speakers around to find were I think they sound good.
    Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited May 2009
    omg Sean, beautiful set up man! What speakers do you connect to that big MC?
    Thanks for the helpful post. Seriously man, I don't think they ever have any audio shows over here. In the next few years, maybe I'll go to Vegas to check out the HES. Been wanting to do it for a couple yeas now.

    TC,
    Where are your tweeters pointing? I think the LSi should require less toe-in because of the location of the tweeters.

    Madmax,
    Yeah, I noticed the same thing too. I think some poeple refer to it as the "horse shoe effect". But you're saying you didn't loose focus and definition with less toe-in?

    Thuff,
    I noticed that. But it's just that I've gone through countless speakers and every single one of them had to be toed in. That's why I posted this. I'm beginning to think the room may also determine the amount of toe-in you need.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited May 2009
    Zero what do those little monitors run$$? Any sonic comparisons?
    Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
    Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
    Former Staff Member TONEAudio
    2 Ch. System
    Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
    Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
    Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
    Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
    Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited May 2009
    There are also some speakers that are designed to be placed straight forward, but incorporate their own "toe-in" with a slanted baffle. NHT 3.3s come to mind.

    99nht331.jpg

    I find that toe-in really does depend on the speaker and the room. The best results with toe-in that I have found is almost all nearfield monitors; it makes all the difference in the world.
    Jake
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited May 2009
    As a more more extreme example, Jordan JX92s drivers are supposed to be toed in 60 degrees- you can even toe them out as an alternative.

    http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/diy/
    (look at the triangular design)

    Anyhow, it'll depend on room and how wide you want your listening area to be. Try a few different things- that's the fun part.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited May 2009
    Very nice setup, Sean!! nothing like seeing and breathing anything Mac....
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited May 2009
    madmax wrote: »
    I've noticed a wider soundstage (less toe in) vs a deeper soundstage (more toe in).
    madmax
    This has been my experience also.

    IMO, the most important thing is the speakers used. If it's a well designed speaker with great off axis response, you should be able to run very little to zero toe and enjoy a huge soundstage.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited May 2009
    Sean,
    Thanks for the info. I'm sure they sound super. Have you tried spreading them out a little more? I believe you had your LSi15's farther apart before. Is that Karan a pre? Man, I need to keep up. I thought that was your int. and had the mac for another set of speaks.
    I forgot about the Montreal show. I should check it out. I'm so wanting to hear an MBL system.

    Thanks to everyone for clarifying the set up for me. I did some reading last night and found that there are people who prefer the sound of speakers off axis. They sacrifice imaging and focus to get a much wider soundstage. The full blown orchestra listeners like the wider stage and greater sense of air.

    I have played around with the RT1000's and I think I found a very good angle. The sound intersects just behind my head now.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited May 2009
    Just to check this out, I set my speakers straight forward and found a significant increase in the soundstage, but also lost something in the deal too.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited May 2009
    With both my 7A's and my RTi8's, I prefer a bit of toe-in. Not to the point of firing directly at my ears, but to where they fire past the side of my head and intersect basically right behind my head.
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
    Marantz UD5005 universal player
    Parasound Halo P5 preamp
    Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
    PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited May 2009
    So many factors, one of the LARGEST of which is your listening room, affect the overall sound of your system. Great speakers can be made to sound like crap in a bad room with improper location/setup. Toe-in/out is just one tiny aspect of the total system compilation.
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited May 2009
    Keiko wrote: »
    Impossible! Your melon is too big Curt. :p

    That does complicate things. I have to have them spread at least 25 feet apart just to be able to hear any separation between the channels. This is with me sitting 9 feet away from the center point!:eek:
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
    Marantz UD5005 universal player
    Parasound Halo P5 preamp
    Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
    PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,647
    edited May 2009
    Ive tried toe out, toe in, straight forward and everything in between. I always come back to the same degree of toe in. Pretty much have the speakers firing slightly away from their corresponding ear... and this works wonderful...

    But straight forward yields excellent staging with a lackluster center image and a loss of overall detail. Which is what I try to accomplish. But the width of the stage is still incredibly wide.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited May 2009
    Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »
    Ive tried toe out, toe in, straight forward and everything in between. I always come back to the same degree of toe in. Pretty much have the speakers firing slightly away from their corresponding ear... and this works wonderful...

    Yep. Me, too.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited May 2009
    Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »
    But straight forward yields excellent staging with a lackluster center image and a loss of overall detail. Which is what I try to accomplish. But the width of the stage is still incredibly wide.
    There are two possible ways around that, move the speakers a little closer together and/or run the tweeters a little hot. Again, the speaker's off axis performance is also a factor.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited May 2009
    Sean,
    Forgot about pic distortion. I never tried them closer than the equilateral triangle distance I get. I should try it out next time I'm in the mood to play around with placement.

    Must be nice to have two killer integrates to play around with.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter