Turntables, I need an intro.

dcarlson

Thought I'd start a new thread to get going.

I had a chance to tryout my buddy's turntable (an older Dual of some sort) on my system this past weekend and I was pretty impressed.

Now I'm very curious about getting one in the future. The problem is I know absolutely nothing about turntables.

What makes up a good turntable?

Platter, Tone arm, Suspension, Cartridge, Needle, How does it all fit together?

Thanks in advance,

Derick.

Systems

I am unable to afford venturing into a return to turntable right now, primarily because I'd have to rebuild the collection. But a couple of sites I found interesting when I was looking into it were

www.recordcollectorsguild.org

www.needledoctor.com

Also, if you search prior posts in the Club Polk forum, you should find some good stuff.

gidrah

The only info I can offer is heavy platters and belt drive will good vibration isolation.

I'm hope the gurues will help us out as I've been thinking of upgrading my Pioneer. Heck, I wouldn't know how to balance the arm after a cartridge change.

Also, what's a decent phono preamp in the $100-150 range.

dcarlson

I've already search prior posts. I'm a CD guy and most of the posts were about brands I've never heard of and probably out of my price range. My next step is to search the internet on How to buy a turntable? I was hoping to get a brief guide on what to look for and shy away from.

I currently don't have a record collection but it's definitely something I'd like to get into. I'll probably start slow, maybe a used turntable and slowly get some of my favorite album on vinyl.

dcarlson

gidrah,

My buddy just bought a NAD preamp for CAN$150 it seamed to do the trick, but what do I know? Not much when it comes to vinyl.:)

gidrah

Thanks! I'm currently considering a used Creek for $119 USD. Unfortunately I have no idea which one would actually sound better.

Emlyn

Hi Derick,
If you could post what else is in your system, I might be able to help more. But, here's something to go on. You can spend around $450 for a Music Hall MMF-5 turntable and not really have to get anything else except LPs, cleaning brushes and cleaning fluid. The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, etc. love this turntable. It's belt driven, uses a decent moving magnet cartridge, provides good isolation, and combines well with just about any receiver with a phono input. It's my opinion that the tonearm and cartridge are the most critical parts on a turntable system. If you're interested in going up in price range, the sky's the limit. Under a $1K though, I'd recommend Rega or Music Hall turntables. A good place to go for background information on the trip back to vinyl is at Audioasylum.com where you should look through the FAQ section in the Vinyl section.

Gidrah,
I heartily recommend Creek phono preamps. Sumiko and NAD make some decent lower priced ones, but if you can find a good Creek used, go for it. I'm using the OBH-8SE myself because the Eroica Goldring cartridge (moving coil) on my MMF-7 doesn't mesh will with the phono input on my receiver and Music Hall recommends the Creek preamps.

It is indeed true that a properly set up turntable is currently exceeded in musical quality only by SACD, and then only because SACD has no surface noise to get in the way of the music as LPs sometimes do.

dcarlson

Emlyn,

Thanks for the info, it's much appreciated and gives me a good start.

A dude at a local Audio store here was telling me about Rega turntables. At the time I wasn't interested but boy do things change fast.

I have a Denon 2802, it's has a phono input. I'm using Polk RT1000i as fronts. Should have a said that.

You can spend around $450 for a Music Hall MMF-5 turntable and not really have to get anything else except LPs, cleaning brushes and cleaning fluid.

I guess this is probably the route I'd like to take, seeing I don't have any records right now. It's also probably the price range too. I also have a large collections of CDs so I don't think the records would replace them just add a different flavor.

Would it be better to use a preamp with someting in MM-F5 range of turntable or is Denon's Phono in good enough? Down the road, would I be able upgrade some parts on the a turntable in that range also? Like the tonearm and whatever else.

Derick.

madmax

I think the Dennon preamp would be good enough to start with.

dcarlson

A couple stupid questions.

What's the azimuth?

What's the plinth?

Emlyn

Derick,
In your situation, I'd recommend the MMF-5 because it will work well with your receiver out of the box. You shouldn't have to make any adjustments to it because the cartridge is already mounted. Denon puts a good phono stage in its receivers and actually still make s a pretty good turntable itself. You could look at Rega or a more expensive brand to start out with, but since you need to build a stock of LPs and the other stuff that goes along with listening to vinyl I'd suggest starting with the MMF-5 and building from there. If the time comes and you want to upgrade the turntable, you'd have no problem selling the MMF-5 in the used market. Just be sure to keep the box and packaging somewhere. The plinth is the base of a turntable. In the case of the MMF-5, it uses a split plinth design to provide the motor and platter with isolation. I think azimuth refers to the alignment of the stylus. In terms of upgrading, you can get a relatively low cost turntable that's good to start off with then buy accessories that can be used with another turntable if you want to get another later on. The MMF-5 is the lowest I would suggest going in price to experience what vinyl should sound like. Later on, if the upgrade bug hits you could get a separate phono preamp, with good ones starting around $300. You could get a vacuum-type record cleaner (Nitty Gritty or VPI). Taking care of vinyl can get pretty expensive compared with CDs. Ask your friends, family, and neighbors if they have LPs they're not using to they'd like to give you. Audioadvisor.com and Amusicdirect.com are good places to look for turntables and accessories. I've had good experiences with both.

dcarlson

Excellent, thank you so much.

tonyv1

No surprise Music Hall recommends Creek products, they import them. Music Hall imports products that are a great value for the price. With a Rega TT, there is a problem with Grado cartridges because the drive motor is unshielded. You'll get a HUM as the cartridge gets closer to the spindle.

Emlyn

Tony,
You're right. Musical Hall is the U.S. distributor for Creek's amplifiers and CD players. Their turntables are designed with Creek's phono preamps in mind. One would have to go up in price considerably with competing preamps to find the same sound quality. Good point about Rega and Grado. Rega's turntables are not quite as ready to go out of the box as Music Halls because they don't usually come with a cartridge. Turntable and cartridge matching is very important.

madmax

Just a thought here. I know everyone doesn't want to spend a mint but I really looked over the MMF5 and MMF7 turntables this morning. The MMF7 seems to me to be the one to shoot for. Just looking at the platters of it and a few other brands the '7 seems to offer something closer to the higher end stuff and still at a decent price. It also offers the isolated motor with external power supply. I think that a table of this quality might support future upgrades of better cartridges and preamps s little better than the '5. All guesses since I have not heard the two. I guess I'm thinking that if you make the investment you may be happier. The other reason is that if you search the used market you may find the cost is only a few hundred more rather than twice the "new" cost. Just a thought. Either one gets you in the groove though!
madmax

Tour2ma

Nice series of posts Emlyn, let me chip in and add a question or two as well.

Originally posted by Emlyn
I think azimuth refers to the alignment of the stylus.

You are correct. Specifically it refers to the tangential alignment of the stylus to the record groove. With the classic single-pivot tone arm, because it sweeps across the album in an arc, there is only one point during play where this angle is “zero”. The angle error is minimized by tone arm design, positioning vs. the platter, length, etc. True zero is generally achieved somewhere around the middle of a side,
There have been some interesting design efforts to be true zero throughout record playback, e.g., linear tracking tonearms and pivoting headshells were two, but none really took hold. Seems to me that with the technology today someone ought to be making a really nice linear tracking arm.

Does the choice of the Music Hall lock the buyer into one cartridge model or Manufacturer? A great deal of “upgrade” pleasure can be derived from stepping up cartridges.

Originally posted by Emlyn
The MMF-5 is the lowest I would suggest going in price to experience what vinyl should sound like.

There are some true and semi-classics out there all the time on ebay. They can serve as a great intro…

Originally posted by Emlyn
Later on, if the upgrade bug hits you could get a separate phono preamp, with good ones starting around $300.

Tube or SS? A number of the SS models you dismissed above as OK, could be a startling upgrade from the most built-ins. My Audio Alchemy did that for me vs the Yamaha C-1 built-in, which was considered very good in its day.

Originally posted by Emlyn
You could get a vacuum-type record cleaner (Nitty Gritty or VPI). Ask your friends, family, and neighbors if they have LPs they're not using to they'd like to give you.

These two go hand in hand. You can “offer” to clean other’s albums. Gets you a lot of good listens for free.
BTW stock cleaning solutions are a rip-off. IME contact lens solution is as good and much cheaper.

And don’t forget about positioning the TT relative to the room curve (no bass reinforcing zones for them please), the isolation and leveling of the surface the TT resides upon, and on and on… Vinyl is a great addition to an already intoxicating hobby.

Emlyn

Hi Tour,
Thanks for the compliment. I had an old inexpensive linear tracking turntable for the last 20 years made by Pioneer. I'd stashed it away for a long time but still had many LPs in excellent condition that were just sitting around going to waste. So, I read reviews, surfed the forums and decided to go the new route rather than the used route. I don't have enough experience in vinyl over the last decade because I'd basically ignored it in favor of CD. Big mistake. I mostly listen to SACD and LPs now and use CDs outside the house (car, office, etc). There is a ton of equipment on the used market, but I felt uncomfortable myself in trying to figure out what to try and put together. So, the Music Hall turntables are attractive in that respect--everything in one package. They can be upgraded later on with different cartridges and tonearms, which makes sense because they are already cobbled together from other manufacturer's parts--looks like Sumiko motors, Project 9 tonearms, Goldring cartridges. The plinth looks like its an original design though. I have heard of an MMF-7 user on another forum ditching the high output moving coil cartridge that comes with the MMF-7 in favor of a moving magnet cartridge. I like the idea of the contact lens cleaning solution--I walked by the aisle in Target last week and wondered if the cleaning solutions would be gentle enough but still tough enough to clean the vinyl. It makes sense that it would do the cleaning job very well, and it is much less expensive. Thanks for the suggestion. I have a Nitty Gritty machine on order now which I hope to get later this week.

You're right. Vinyl is intoxicating, and can be expensive. But, it's well worth the venture back.

dcarlson

I'm with Emlyn in that when I venture down the Vinyl brick road, I'd like to get something I can plug in a turntable and go.

I'm leary about buying stuff used and if I buy something online from the U.S. I have to deal with the CAN$ conversion rate. It's not pretty to buy some for %60 more. That MMF-5 will cost me around CAN$700 and I think for now that's about high as I wan't to go.

What do you guys think of having a turnable shipped? Aren't they more delicate than regular equipment and be more prone to damage?

Derick.

Tour2ma

Yes, they are more delicate, but the Manufacturers know how to pack them. Your manual will contain information on how to prepare the table for personal moves and shipping, should that be necessary.

Missed commenting on it earlier, but I think "plug and go" may be a bit of an oversimplification here. Correct me if I'm wrong for the MM-5 Emlyn, but you still have to align the cartridge, set tracking force, anti-skate... Does the MM-5 come with a test record for checking phase, tracking, etc.?

Not trying to scare you off dc, the set up is a nice experience, but no quality TT I am aware of is the equal of a CD player when it comes to plug and play simplicity.

Paul Connor

dcarlson,

Here are some of the links you need to start studying what is out there. The vinyl/turntable industry is alive and well. And by all indications growing. Start by reading The Vinyl Anacronist.

http://www.furious.com/perfect/vinylanachronist.html

http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

http://www.stores.ebay.com/id=8648970

http://store.acousticsounds.com/

http://www.vvinyl.com/prodsearch.asp

http://www.elusivedisc.com/

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/bbs.html

http://www2.vinylvendors.com/vinylvendors/vinylvendor.html

http://www.vinylunderground.net/

http://www.forevervinyl.com/

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/

http://turntable.www4.50megs.com/links.htm

http://www.turntablebasics.com/index.html

http://www.garage-a-records.com/

http://www.furious.com/perfect/toc.html

dcarlson

Man, oh man, oh man.

You guys are making this so much easier.

Tourma, I can definitely handle and enjoy a little setup and tweeking, after all isn't that what it's all about? Should be fun, can't wait.

I just dropped a grand on Rotel RCD1070 CD player over the weekend so the TT is going to have to wait a little bit. In the mean time I'm going to pick up some records.

Any advice on what to look for and stay away from when buying vinyl?

dcarlson

What about weight? 120, 180, 200 gram?

madmax

The 180 and 200 gram ones have very little surface noise. It's almost scary! Great link list Paul!
madmax001

Tour2ma

Yes Paul, Thank you for the links...

dc, many other factors in addition to weight determine the final quality. Denser is better in general, but light does not necessarily mean bad.
The maximum number of pressings per set of molds is likely the biggest factor.

BET

Emlyn

Hi Tour,
I have the MMF-7 myself, but a friend has the MMF-5. Both require very little setup time. With the MMF-7 it took me about an hour to put together and set it up. They come with written instructions but nothing else--no diagrams, which can be frustrating to a first-timer who may run into trouble hanging the anti-skate weight and the counterweight, no set-up LP, no stylus gauge. I didn't have any problems following the instructions myself and the settings were spot on, well at least within the specified ranges, without having to tweak. I can confirm that turntables like these are not plug and play though.

Thanks for the link list, Paul. Good reading.

Congratulations on the Rotel CD player, Derick--very nice choice.

madmax

I'm not sure of all the SME arms but the IV model allows you to make VTA adjustments while the LP is playing. This allows you to go too high, hear it, go too low, hear it then go in the middle and set it. That is really cool! Anti-skating and length is the same. (I'm sure length has another name) These are all options that deserve consideration. You really can't just set an arm to some specific values and know you are getting the best performance. One other thing I found out after much searching is that cheaper is not necessarily cheaper. One example was that I initially planned on going with an RB250 tone arm. Initial prices were around $200. Then when you start looking at upgrades such as a special counter drilled weight for the back, upgraded wiring, VTA adjustment upgrade, etc, etc... you find out the total cost by the time you are done is over $1150. Well, the SME arm complete from the right dealer only cost $900. $1800 list but you know how that goes. (Check out Juki Juki from Hong Kong on Audiogon) Figure out how far you want to go from the start because if you start out small but know in the back of your mind it will get big then only the price will get big. I'm just saying give it some thought before you invest the first hundred because no one wants to spend $1150 for a $200 arm when they could have had an $1800 arm for $900. Again, the MMF 7 is what I would have chosen if I wanted to save some cash but still end up with something reasonable. I started looking at the VPI tables and rlw listened to what I was looking for sound wise and suggested it may not be the thing for me. I'm still not sure what is different about them. Something about rhythem (spelling?) and pace. I've heard that Linn tables are worth looking at as well. What a cool thing LP playing has become! My first table was a $225 Pioneer. Man, I never want to hear that thing again! Tonite I was listening to some vinyl and watching it spin and it just amazes me that it sounds better than the lowly CD's we have become used to. (reminded me of how glad I was to get rid of that Pioneer back in the day)
madmax

Gary Robertson

BesT Buy sells a very decent Technics
turntable for 129 dollars It comes with a cartridge and stylus also belt drive
motor.Damn thing sounds good too.But you can always add a shure v-15 cartridge later.Everything is done for you already ie:: the platter ,tonearm,balance,and suspention etc.
Hey ,wait a minute !!!!! How did you know about Platters,suspension,tonearms and cartridges if you donn't know anything about turntables??? Ha,ha....

Emlyn

Madmax,
I still use my old Pioneer turntable--but only to spin LPs under a Discwasher brush with more pressure and finger spinning boost than I'd like to subject my good turntable to. I'm hoping to receive a Nitty Gritty later this week.

Tour2ma

Emlyn,
You'll love the Nitty Gritty. I've had one for several years. It’s brought albums back to life that I feared were long gone from the days before I learned how to care for my vinyl. Best example is my original “Meet the Beatles” in glorious Mono (stereo was an “option” in ’64).
Only complaint was that after a couple years the cleaning solution ate away the sealant they used for the connections to the reservoir and wetting brush. Found a big puddle under it when I went to use it one time (and I thought it was housebroken). But a little superglue to anchor the tubes in place, followed by some good silicon caulk to seal and back in business.
One caution, these use VERY powerful vacuum motors. Mine dips the lights on the circuit it’s on when first hit it, so best to set up apart from your electronics’ circuit(s).

You mentioned your Discwasher. I still have and use an ancient Watts “Parostatik” Disc Preener. Love this old thing and its companion “Dust Bug”, that’s anchored left rear on my Thorens, picking up any dust the vinyl attracts during play.

Different eras --- different toys…

madmax

Originally posted by Emlyn
Madmax,
I still use my old Pioneer turntable--but only to spin LPs under a Discwasher brush with more pressure and finger spinning boost than I'd like to subject my good turntable to. I'm hoping to receive a Nitty Gritty later this week.

That is what I'm using mine for too!

I want the $400 vpi cleaner but it will have to wait until I save up for it. The reason I want it is because it actually gives you a good surface to sit the lp on in case you have to clean it a little more than normal. I hear that it combined with a few manual cleaning brushes gives you really good results with contaminated lp's.

Don't forget to try the Hunt EDA brush! As a last clean before playing I can't imagine anything else that would work any better.

madmax

Tour2ma

Max,
Do you have a link for the Hunt EDA?