The bug never ends...

LBrize

So, I finally, after years of magazine looking, and hi-fi listening, managed to put together a pretty decent system.

I have many speakers that I found second hand, including Infinity RS4, BIC Venturi V604 (very nice), Polk RT400, Polk Monitor 10 (lovely), Polk Monitor 7, Polk SDA2, Bose 501 V (don't laugh, they were the first ones I bought), and some really nice bookshelf models like Boston Acoustics C7, and a couple pair of Bose 201, a set of AM-5 speakers, and a really cool little Boston Acoustics powered sub. My main subwoofer, although not well known, is amazing. It is...I can't remember the brand, but the logo is an elephant or a Rhino I think, and the logo says "a 12" that sounds like a 15." Now I remember, it's REEL Acoustics. It has a 350 watt amp, and is really good.

Now, my amps are my pride and joy. I have the Rotel RB 985 Mk II THX, and a Rotel RB 951 Mk II for 7.1 surround, a Toshiba HD-DVD player, Denon 1920 DVD player (awesome), a HK DVD 22 DVD player (supposed to be awesome, but it's just above average), and an old JVC DVD player. Oh, and a PS3 for Blu-Ray playback--In my opinion, the Sony 350 is a better blu-ray player than the PS3, but evidentally I'm one of the few who think so based on reviews.

My surround processor is a Harman Kardon AVR230, which has preamp outputs for 7.1 sound.

I'm telling you all this because I know the Polks are great, and I know the amps are awesome, but the sound I'm getting is really just not what I'm looking for. For 7.1, it's fine, but when it comes to music, I can barely listen to it.

Based on what I've listed, do you guys think I need a dedicated surround decoder/preamp? I mean, those are mega expensive, but I'm thinking the old HK receiver is my weakest link. Agree?

lightman1

Simple solution. Get what makes you happy for HT. Then put something together that makes you just as happy in a 2CH system. Don't think me a dick, but ne'er the two shall mix. wink wink.



not an elitist, jst trying to help.

tonyb

Be nice if you said which of the speakers you were useing or the dvd players.What kind of cables,size of the room,yada yada.You have a big list there,personally,I wouldn't use any of those dvd players to spin a cd on.Be a bit more specific and we'll be better able to help ya.

LBrize

tonyb wrote: »

Be nice if you said which of the speakers you were useing or the dvd players.What kind of cables,size of the room,yada yada.You have a big list there,personally,I wouldn't use any of those dvd players to spin a cd on.Be a bit more specific and we'll be better able to help ya.

I use the Denon with and it's D/A converters for CD playback. I run it analogue.
I use the Toshiba HD DVD and the PS3 for movie playback. I;m not sure which one does a better job at upconverting, so I go back and forth.

As far as speakers, I usually use the BIC Venturi V604 for music. They have a nice, laid back sound, and although they are dipole, the laid back sound outweighs the bit of harshness I get from the SL2000 tweeters on the Polk Monitors (although I prefer the Monitors from time to time). For rear speakers, I usually go with the Polk RT400. Again since the Venturi are Dipole, it makes more sense to use them as surrounds, so I sometimes do, but the Venturi are also a much more full sounding speaker, so I usually prefer them over the Polk RT400 for mains.

Center, Boston Acoustics C7.

That's how I usually run the system.
As far as wire goes, I've tried twisted expensive cables, but they seemed to dull the sound a bit, so I use plain jane 12 gauge copper wire, not expensive.

p.s. I don't use the SDA because I am minus 2 6501 woofers for them. Also, they are a bit large for my listening space.

The interconnects are good quality, but not $100/meter good. They probably retail for $30 each. The video is running with good quality HDMI cables.

The room is about 14X18

danger boy

lightman1 wrote: »

Simple solution. Get what makes you happy for HT. Then put something together that makes you just as happy in a 2CH system. Don't think me a dick, but ne'er the two shall mix. wink wink.



not an elitist, jst trying to help.

the dude speaketh, he's right.. my HT sucks for music as ell.. but my 2 ch music only system sounds great for music, but not HT.

tonyb

Sounds like you have alot of stuff that your not happy with for one reason or another.I would fix those SDA's,get a dedicated cdp,upgrade the cableing a bit.Those SDA's will do both music and movies with ease.Or just sell it all and start from scratch.

Marty913

When you say you like the movie performance but when it comes to music it's so horrible you can barely listen to it, what do you mean? Are you listening to music as 2-channel or as multi-channel, too bright, too soft, etc. There are certainly speakers and processors out there that do both pretty well (maybe not perfect, but hardly horrible). I guess I'm not ready yet to agree the HK is the weakest link. It does seem better at HT but it does not do a bad job on 2-channel when run in Direct mode with separate amps and it does match up well with Rotel amps.

LBrize

Marty913 wrote: »

When you say you like the movie performance but when it comes to music it's so horrible you can barely listen to it, what do you mean? Are you listening to music as 2-channel or as multi-channel, too bright, too soft, etc. There are certainly speakers and processors out there that do both pretty well (maybe not perfect, but hardly horrible). I guess I'm not ready yet to agree the HK is the weakest link. It does seem better at HT but it does not do a bad job on 2-channel when run in Direct mode with separate amps and it does match up well with Rotel amps.

Well, I mean it sounds chaotic. That's the best way for me to describe it. I run music in two channel only. One thing I do is to run the little Rotel As my two channel amp, which sounds much better on music than the 985 Mk II. I run the Denon 1920 via analogue outputs for music, and of course the HK in two channel mode for music. Using the Venturi V604 and no sub, I get pretty good music performance that way. But when I use the larger Rotel, and the brighter Polks (the monitor 10 usually), the sound is chaotic, reminds me of articles I've read on listener fatigue.

Thanks for everyone's input. One question, what is a cpb, or cbp that someone mentioned?

tonyb

CD player........

Marty913

Usually (in my case anyway) listener fatigue is brought about by a too bright sound or room reflections. Some Polk users find the SL1000 tweeters to be fatiguing, and many even the SL2000 preferring instead the RDO replacements. Of course a bright sounding receiver / amp combination can do the same thing but the HK is considered a warm receiver as are most Rotel amps.

I'm currently using an HK / Carver combination I would characterize as warm or laid back. Even that was a little fatiguing because I have an extremely hard surface room (tile floors, high ceilings). Room treatments were a huge help to me.

I'm afraid I don't have a lot of ideas to offer but I can't imagine the HK / Rotel being the main problem unless your particular HK has issues. I'm not familiar with the sound of the current BIC speakers although I owned a pair of the original line back in the mid-70's (4-way Formula 6's). Any of the other speakers you have on hand do better ? What about room acoustics ?

LBrize

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I'm surprised at the amount of respect the HK receiver is getting as a preamp. I also thought when I bought it that it would be a good choice, I've always thought HK was a good piece of gear for the price, so I'm glad to hear some good comments on the receiver. The Venturi's I have are from the Sun Electronics days, (mid 90s), and really they are the most laid back, smooth sounding speakers I have. The Polks have have better imaging, and I love the Polk sound.

My room is probably pretty hard, I have wood laminate flooring, wood walls, but there are several curtains in the room, 2 large sound traps (about 18x26") on the side walls. 8-foot ceilings, and a couple of large area rugs.

I gave a listen to the Polk RT400's for a while today, and I'm also very impressed with the sound of those. The Venturi's have a fuller sound, but those Polks are nice.

After listening to everyone's opinions, I think the best thing for me to do, is get some wire. Some people say (very strongly) that wire doesn't matter, but I'm one who believes I can hear differences in wire, and the fake monster cable may be part of the harsh or fatigue I'm hearing. Maybe some placement issues with my audio rack, couch, etc. From what I'm hearing, people mostly seem to think my equipment is okay and that I should get some cables and move some stuff around. Thank you all very much!

LBrize

Just as an update, I tore down my audio system today, moved it, and rewired it all.

What a difference. Firstly, I had forgotten one of the cardinal rules about speaker placement, in that before I had them sitting along an exterior wall. If you guys haven't read this one before, it's an oldie. But today, I remembered it, and remembered why.

The difference is astounding.

Next, several of you mentioned speaker wire.
When I pulled everything out, I realize that I had about 30 feet of wire laying behind each speaker, because I used older wire for home theater to hook up this stereo. I didn't need 30 feet of wire, plus it was laying all coiled up, along with power wires, tv cables, etc. Fixing this also helped.

Next, I disconnected all non-essential equipment. This got rid of extra RCA, HDMI, S-Video, Component, and Optical cables that I simply was not using. This decreases interference, and looks better, without these.

Finally, I'm running two channel only, with the small Rotel as the amp. This is a really nice sounding setup; it's a lot closer to as good as I've heard than what I've ever had.

Anyone else know about the exterior wall rule?

WilliamM2

Anyone else know about the exterior wall rule?

Never even heard of it. Though I never put any equipment or speakers in front of windows, which of course are on the exterior walls.

LBrize

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Never even heard of it. Though I never put any equipment or speakers in front of windows, which of course are on the exterior walls.

I think I read about not putting speakers along an exterior wall either in Stereo Review in the '80s, or in an old Radio Shack book called "Building Better Speaker Systems."

LBrize

Also in case anyone who asked earlier what components I was using, I went minimalist with everything. I am using the Denon 1920 as a cd player/dvd player, the Rotel 951, the HK AVR230 as a preamp, and Infinity RS4 speakers. That's it. I honestly was able to reduce about 15 pounds of wire from the system.

Marty913

LBrize wrote: »

Firstly, I had forgotten one of the cardinal rules about speaker placement, in that before I had them sitting along an exterior wall. If you guys haven't read this one before, it's an oldie. But today, I remembered it, and remembered why.

Anyone else know about the exterior wall rule?

No, I've been doing this stuff for a whole lotta years (which doesn't guarantee success) and always been a subscriber to all the magazines, journals, tried all the tweaks, etc. but I can't recall anything about exterior walls. As a matter of fact, some well-built concrete & brick exterior walls properly treated seem to offer the best location. The "not in front of windows" part is a no-brainer. Is that what you mean ? Even that can be mitigated somewhat by heavy curtains. Can someone explain the interior / exterior thing to me?

All of the other changes (wire, cables, rewiring everything) can explain a lot. Regardless, the important thing is that it sounds better and all it took was time (not money). Congrats.

Falcon01

A few nights ago I heard a Denon 889 paired with B&W 604 S3's (and matching centre channel and surrounds) and I can say with 100% certainty that it absolutely SMOKED the sound I am getting from my Pioneer Elite VSX-01 paired with Paradigm speakers.

Seriously it wasn't a small difference, the sound was on another level completely. The kicker is I could get that same setup for the same price as I got mine.

So I'm in the same boat. I'm going to move my speakers around and see if I can get better sound, if not I will be changing my system completely.

The bug is relentless I tell you.

Pedler

Falcon01 wrote: »

A few nights ago I heard a Denon 889 paired with B&W 604 S3's (and matching centre channel and surrounds) and I can say with 100% certainty that it absolutely SMOKED the sound I am getting from my Pioneer Elite VSX-01 paired with Paradigm speakers.

Seriously it wasn't a small difference, the sound was on another level completely. The kicker is I could get that same setup for the same price as I got mine.

So I'm in the same boat. I'm going to move my speakers around and see if I can get better sound, if not I will be changing my system completely.

The bug is relentless I tell you.

I have been out listening also, I had a chance to listen to the B&W 684(I think) and Paradigm at a local store they had them in the same room, they didn't have a denon hooked up but they had rotel receiver/digital amp the newer stuff.
I think i liked the B&W better. The Paradigm was more forward sounding more detailed but I felt there was a little grainy sound out of it... at least with the rotel.. They were both good but I didn't spend more than 15 minutes listening. between the two... ( The music was played through a music server)

Falcon01 do you notice this with yours? I have been going to listening to different systems, as to help make the best upgrade from my klipsch.

(P.S. The upgrade-Bug is like a cold... It gets spread as soon as you get a new piece of gear. remember feed a cold ) or I think that is how it goes..

Falcon01

In the B&W system I heard we were listening to SACD's (Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon, Dire Straits, and some others) plus he threw on The Matrix on bluray.

The sound was so clean and clear I was literally saying to myself "WTF??"

Dialogue was amazing, instruments were clear and accurate (this is subjective of course) and it was just so much more open and dynamic.

It's almost like my system is in Mono and his is in Stereo, thats the best way I can describe it.

Just for kicks I turned off the EQ in my VSX-01 as sometimes that can muffle the sound and it wasn't much of an improvement. I'm either doing something really wrong, or my speakers need to be repositioned, or my room accoustics are atrocious (I know my room is far from ideal but come on).

I spoke to the guy I buy my equipment from and he's going to come by sometime and check out my setup. Hopefully together we can make some major improvements in sound.