MONSTER MPA 3250 Power Amplifier Vs. emotiva xpa3
Comments
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While its fair to say that your going to pay a premuim for Monster some products (amps, speakers, and the new Dr Dre "Beats" headphones), they are generally good products. Id rather not discuss cabling and interconnects.
I've listened to Monster Speakers and amps and they were more than adequate. I'm not saying they are worth the money...I'm just sayin.Do you hear that buzzing noise?
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Hey Monster Jam, just curious have you received any cease and desist letters from David Tognotti because of your infringing screenname?
j/k
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HT:Onkyo 805, Emotiva XPA-5, Mitsu 52" 1080p DLP / polkaudio RTi12, CSIa6, FXi3, uPro4K
2-chnl : Pio DV-46AV (SACD), Dodd ELP, Emotiva XPA-1s, XPA-2, Odyssey Khartago, LSi9, SDA-SRS 2 :cool:, SB Duet, MSB & Monarchy DACs, Yamaha PX3 TT, SAE Tuner...
Pool: Atrium 60's/45's -
LOL - I wasn't familiar with the name so I Googled it - interesting...
There's this annual monster truck event here in Las Vegas called Monster Jam, too. I tend to use the same handle on all the boards I particpate on, and the very first was a CNNSI thread for UNLV Runnin Rebel basketball. I think it was a nod to the video game NBA Jam where dudes literally caught "on fire" with the basketball. Ahhhh, the early 90's....Do you hear that buzzing noise? -
Just FYI in case you want a look under the hood. There seem to be some differences in design that could be making the monster heavier. Maybe some of those who know about such things can comment?
The monster:
The emotiva:
It could be that the Monster and EMO amps are based on entirely different designs.
Expect a class A/B amp to be heavier than a class D amp. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just a design choice. -
Looks to me like the specs are pretty close in that regard.
XPA-3
200W into 8 (3 chnls)
300W into 4 (3 chnls)
150% from 4 to 8
MPA 3250
250W into 8 (3 chnls)
400W into 4 (3 chnls)
160% from 4 to 8
Is that even a measure of an amps performance or capability? Is 10% really that much of a design compromise?
These amps are not even the same architecture. Or are they with the exception of the separate power supplies?
Damn I really love the watt meters on that MPA. I wonder if there are any after market meters like that can go between an amp and the speakers? That sounds like a toy I would definitely buy.
Consider this when looking at the 10% difference. For every +3db of volume you need TWICE the amplification power. So in that context the 10% is going to be negligible.
Other considerations at this level of equipment: Slew Rate and Dampening Factor. I would let those two measurements factor with more importance into my purchase decision vs a 10% in the power envelope. -
Wow, I did check the price on the Monster Amps. $3K!:eek:
Does anybody know who makes these amps for Monster?
I mean you can get an Outlaw Audio 7900 7 channel fully balanced amp (requires two 15amp services!) for $3499... -
Wow, I did check the price on the Monster Amps. $3K!:eek:
Does anybody know who makes these amps for Monster?
I mean you can get an Outlaw Audio 7900 7 channel fully balanced amp (requires two 15amp services!) for $3499...
IIRC, this is the guy who designed the amps for monster:
http://marshsounddesign.com/about_msd.html
Richard Marsh -
Other considerations at this level of equipment: Slew Rate and Dampening Factor. I would let those two measurements factor with more importance into my purchase decision vs a 10% in the power envelope.
From the manuals...
Emotiva --
Damping Factor: 200 into 8ohms
Doesn't seem to give the Slew Rate in the manual
Monster --
Damping Factor: 600
Slew Rate: 70v per uSec
So what do these specs mean? -
From the manuals...
Emotiva --
Damping Factor: 200 into 8ohms
Doesn't seem to give the Slew Rate in the manual
Monster --
Damping Factor: 600
Slew Rate: 70v per uSec
So what do these specs mean?
Slew Rate
Dampening Factor
Hope that helps... -
Actually those links are a little technical...I was hoping that since you said you would use those specs for evaluating an amp, that you could provide a little more guidance for what a good range is for those numbers and how they can influence the sound of a speaker. For instance, I've read that the damping factor is a measure of how much control the amp can have over the woofer. Does a higher damping factor mean tighter, more responsive bass? There certainly seems to be a large damping factor difference between the two amps as reported in their manuals. Should you be able to hear this difference under average listening conditions? Where might it show up the most? Certain instruments like drum hits? -
I believe they are both Class A/B designs
Expect a class A/B amp to be heavier than a class D amp. It's not good, it's not bad, it's just a design choice.
CorrectIIRC, this is the guy who designed the amps for monster:
http://marshsounddesign.com/about_msd.html
Richard Marsh
Most modern amps will have sufficient slew rate,and damping factor IMO is not a good way in which to judge the quality of an amplifier.Most tube amps have low DF's but still many somehow manage to sound good.Aswell once the resistance of the speaker wire is added to the output impedance of an amp with a high DF it will be substantially lowered.
Other considerations at this level of equipment: Slew Rate and Dampening Factor.Testing
Testing
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damping factor IMO is not a good way in which to judge the quality of an amplifier.Most tube amps have low DF's but still many somehow manage to sound good.Aswell once the resistance of the speaker wire is added to the output impedance of an amp with a high DF it will be substantially lowered.
I read that tube amps' DF may be one reason they sound different than SS amps. Not better or worse. Just a different sound that you either prefer or not. Would the resistance of the speaker wire also lower a low DF substantially as well? Or are you saying that both would drop into some irrelevant range? Sorry about all these questions, but I'm still trying to learn what these specs mean for audio quality. -
Yes thats one of the popular reasons given.I read that tube amps' DF may be one reason they sound different than SS amps.
Essentially or atleast the seemingly big advantage will be gone.Sorry but here's another link that gives some good examples.http://www.trueaudio.com/post_013.htmOr are you saying that both would drop into some irrelevant range?Testing
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Funny how it always seems to come down to "the specs are irrelevant" and "just listen to the set-up and hope you don't have a placebo effect." Price is irrelevant, watts are misleading, other specs zero out as a factor in real world set-ups. Makes you wonder why we measure anything at all and don't just have lists of matched synergistic components that sound great together (by someone's golden ear, of course).
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I'll take a Pinto over a Chevette any day.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
These are good questions,I was looking forward to jinjuku answering them for you.Actually those links are a little technical...I was hoping that since you said you would use those specs for evaluating an amp, that you could provide a little more guidance for what a good range is for those numbers and how they can influence the sound of a speaker. For instance, I've read that the damping factor is a measure of how much control the amp can have over the woofer. Does a higher damping factor mean tighter, more responsive bass? There certainly seems to be a large damping factor difference between the two amps as reported in their manuals. Should you be able to hear this difference under average listening conditions? Where might it show up the most? Certain instruments like drum hits?Testing
Testing
Testing -
These are good questions,I was looking forward to jinjuku answering them for you.
With slew rate, from my understanding, your amp has to produce transients: Any thing from 20Hz-20Khz. How fast an amp can switch from producing one frequency to another. It's all about hopping about and creating different amplitudes.
Dampening factor, again from my understanding, is how quickly your amp can end a signal that it is sending out to a speaker. The quicker the 'stop' the higher the dampening factor.
While not technical answers, I hope they help you get the 'gist' of it. If you did indeed get those Monster Amps for less than $1K, really good deal. I wouldn't hesitate in a moment, they look like they are very well designed. -
Actually those links are a little technical...I was hoping that since you said you would use those specs for evaluating an amp, that you could provide a little more guidance for what a good range is for those numbers and how they can influence the sound of a speaker. For instance, I've read that the damping factor is a measure of how much control the amp can have over the woofer. Does a higher damping factor mean tighter, more responsive bass? There certainly seems to be a large damping factor difference between the two amps as reported in their manuals. Should you be able to hear this difference under average listening conditions? Where might it show up the most? Certain instruments like drum hits?
Some things to consider: What is an acceptable slew rate? What is an acceptable dampening factor? There is always a point of diminishing returns, some threshold where you won't hear the difference.
With that said however, I would hope, that it is assumable that all things being roughly equal (price, power output) that an amp with a higher slew rate and dampening factor is over all better designed and better built. That the engineer took time to design circuits and components that run at that rate would mean that equal care has been taken for the rest of the amp also that don't directly involve those components. -
While not technical answers, I hope they help you get the 'gist' of it. If you did indeed get those Monster Amps for less than $1K, really good deal. I wouldn't hesitate in a moment, they look like they are very well designed.
As you can tell every time the Monster name comes up on the forum, the company has a real bad rep with audiophiles because of their sue happy legal department and overpriced wire. This has led to things like these amps not getting much love with their target audience. There was a time when these things would regularly come up on ebay, new and factory sealed for only 800-900 bucks. While I don't disagree with a lot of the criticism of Monster, it seems that Richard Marsh made a good amp and the secondary price for these things seems very reasonable.
I myself noticed a lot of improvement in music when listening with these amps vs my denon 3803. When I've read about slew rate, it seems that a higher slew rate will make a speaker sound crisp and more detailed while a higher damping factor will make a speaker more responsive in the bass. And while some have said that the differences between the emotiva and the monster may be too small, it's definitely the case that these areas improved coming from the denon. Jazz and rock definitely have a crisp, more detailed sound to them. And classical recordings now have snappy, deep sounding bass drum hits that were missing before. My experience with this amp seems very consistent with what I've read and your comments about slew rate and damping factor. I really like the crisp responsive sound. It definitely sounds better to me than my outlaw monoblocks which really don't stand out in the same way. But I can understand why others may prefer an amp with different sound qualities or are just excercising their right to not like monster products.
Your comment about paying attention to these specs meaning that Marsh may have also paid better attention to other amp design components is also interesting. -
ThanksWith slew rate, from my understanding, your amp has to produce transients: Any thing from 20Hz-20Khz. How fast an amp can switch from producing one frequency to another. It's all about hopping about and creating different amplitudes.
Dampening factor, again from my understanding, is how quickly your amp can end a signal that it is sending out to a speaker. The quicker the 'stop' the higher the dampening factor.
While not technical answers, I hope they help you get the 'gist' of it.
IIRC it was an article I read from Nelson Pass indicating that 20 volts/ms was sufficient to ward off any potential TIM problems.Some things to consider: What is an acceptable slew rate?Testing
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How does the EMO XPA-3 know how many watts to produce on a given speaker? Theres no gain knob. I just bought a pair of Lsi 25's and the EM amp...it sounds awesome, but I have to turn the volume up on my avr to get the best results.TV:Sony Bravia XBR4 52'
Mains: Lsi m 705
C:Lsi m 706
Rears: Lsi m 703
Sub: Epik Empire
Pre:Marantz AV 7005
Amp:Sunfire TGA-7400
Blueray: Opp 93
A/V Component: Panamax M5100-PM
Cables: Signal Cable, White Zombie, MIT, Pepster's power cables -
How does the EMO XPA-3 know how many watts to produce on a given speaker? Theres no gain knob. I just bought a pair of Lsi 25's and the EM amp...it sounds awesome, but I have to turn the volume up on my avr to get the best results.
You would run the Auto EQ from your Pre/Pro or your Receiver if using it pre-outs. -
That's perfectly normal. The point is that you can now safely turn up the volume to get the best results without having to worry about the receiver going into protect mode.How does the EMO XPA-3 know how many watts to produce on a given speaker? Theres no gain knob. I just bought a pair of Lsi 25's and the EM amp...it sounds awesome, but I have to turn the volume up on my avr to get the best results.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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That's perfectly normal. The point is that you can now safely turn up the volume to get the best results without having to worry about the receiver going into protect mode.
Gotca!TV:Sony Bravia XBR4 52'
Mains: Lsi m 705
C:Lsi m 706
Rears: Lsi m 703
Sub: Epik Empire
Pre:Marantz AV 7005
Amp:Sunfire TGA-7400
Blueray: Opp 93
A/V Component: Panamax M5100-PM
Cables: Signal Cable, White Zombie, MIT, Pepster's power cables -
Anyone have anything to say about the ATI amps?
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From the manuals...
Emotiva --
Damping Factor: 200 into 8ohms
Doesn't seem to give the Slew Rate in the manual
Monster --
Damping Factor: 600
Slew Rate: 70v per uSec
So what do these specs mean?
The slew rate on the XPA-5 is 24v/uSec
