Good entry to mid level Receiver?

jparker

I found a DenonAVR-1709 for 300 bucks... seems like a good deal to me...

jparker

Before I buy a Yamaha RX-1600 for 250 does anyone have anything against it...

shack

jparker wrote:

Before I buy a Yamaha RX-1600 for 250 does anyone have anything against it...

More more than one person has stated that your speakers tend to be on the bright side (very accurate, not warm, not laid back, could sound harsh to some, etc) and the Yamaha receivers tend to be the same way. Bright speakers + bright receiver could be very fatiguing and not something I would recommend. Your money...if that is a sound you like..then the Yamaha may be a good choice.

jlandbl

I highly recomment the Marantz SR4002 as an entry level surround receiver. It's discontinued but still available new for 299.00. Lots of bang for the buck at this price.

jparker

If I bumped my budget up a bit and got the denon AVR-789 would this work well with my speakers.

Marty913

jparker,,

I know this is an important decision for you so I hate to be critical. That said, you started out with the Denon 589 and in two pages we've been through the Denon 1709, Denon 789, Pioneer 818, Yahama 465, Yahama 1600, and HK in general. I can safely say that everything single one of them has something to offer and every single one of them is probably right for someone - but maybe not you. Sooner or later you are going to have to listen to something to answer that question. Or you could just buy something (except the Yamaha) and be happy.

LuSh

How is Yamaha 'bright sounding'? Has anybody who's posted within this thread actually listened to one which was properly EQ'd in a dealers showroom or are we talking about going to your local Best Buy and trying to listen?

I find it almost impossible to believe that an RXV663 or up could be considered bright, even when compared to the competition.

shack

LuSh wrote:

How is Yamaha 'bright sounding'?

Because that is how I can best describe it.

LuSh wrote:

Has anybody who's posted within this thread actually listened to one which was properly EQ'd in a dealers showroom or are we talking about going to your local Best Buy and trying to listen?

I have never heard a Yamaha AVR at BB (or any receiver for that matter). I was at a fairly high end dealer who was running B&Ws with a Yamaha AVR. It was one of the worst listening sessions I have ever experienced. Ten minutes in my ears actually hurt. I have a good friend who swears by his Yamaha gear, and he runs Paradigm speakers with his current AVR. Again it sounds harsh to my ears. Regardless of what you hear...bright is what I hear.

Marty913

My listening experience was in my home theater with a RX-V663 and I directly compared it to a Pioneer 1018. I found the sound to be horrible (bright is being kind). I later read a review of it from Sound&Vision magazine and the actual test bench power readings were in the low 40 watt region with 5-7 channels driven so it may just have been under-powered. Regardless, I agree with with shack.

LuSh

Shack,

You might consider the speakers before the receiver. I'm not sure why a dealer would connect B&W speakers to any AVR. B&W's are forward sounding and lean on bass, I suspect most AVR's from Japan would reveal the same results.

Marty...did you use the Parametric EQ? If you did I'm curious what PEQ slope you used.

Marty913

LuSh wrote: »

Marty...did you use the Parametric EQ? If you did I'm curious what PEQ slope you used.

It was over 6 months ago but I did run the YPAO system and made sure it identified everything and had the speakers / distances approximately right. Other than that, I really don't get into detail tweaking when comparing the basic sound of different receivers. My feeling (probably pretty old school) is that any piece of gear can probably be tweaked to sound better (or different anyway) but the base-level sound out of the box is usually a good indicator of the general sound characteristics of a piece of equipment. I gave up graphic equalizers in the 70's.

LuSh

Hi Marty,

While I respect your position I would recommend using the MCACC, YPAO or Audyessy in the future. These are not graphic EQ's but instead Parametric and are designed to counter act sonic problems within a room usually in the frequency domain but sometimes in the time domain as well (Audyessy). These are not simple measurements you can adjust manually, these are EQ'd adjustments based on measurements the system has taken in your room. A product might be tuned very neutrally out of a box, when put into a bright room the product might sound bright...even the most modest EQ system should tame at least some of the brightness down.

shack

LuSh wrote: »

Shack,

You might consider the speakers before the receiver. I'm not sure why a dealer would connect B&W speakers to any AVR. B&W's are forward sounding and lean on bass, I suspect most AVR's from Japan would reveal the same results.

Maybe, I generally find B&W lower end speakers not to be to my liking. I demoed quite a few B&W speakers trying to find something to like about them. The setup with the Yamaha was by far the worst demo of them all. B&W does not take into consideration my friends Paradigm setup which is very bright as well. Paradigms are not known for being forward sounding. The Yamaha is the common denominator IMO.

cnh

LuSh wrote: »

How is Yamaha 'bright sounding'? Has anybody who's posted within this thread actually listened to one which was properly EQ'd in a dealers showroom or are we talking about going to your local Best Buy and trying to listen?

I find it almost impossible to believe that an RXV663 or up could be considered bright, even when compared to the competition.

I used to have the next lower model of Yamaha hooked up to a pair of M70s, which I also compared running off an Onkyo 605. Everything set up appropriately. The Onkyo was much warmer, no contest. Though the Yamaha had EXCELLENT 2 channel power...the power also dropped off a bit in 5 channel use.

I don't think that the Yamaha is bright to the point of being unlistenable. I just prefer Onkyo and Harman Kardon sound.

To our seeker above. Yeah get out and LISTEN...don't take our word for it. Maybe we're a bunch of toothless centenarians whose hearing is shot...you don't know...because this is a virtual community.

Denon 1909/789 (definitely in the running) but go listen to it, to the Harman Kardon AVR254, to the Onkyo 606, the Yamaha 663,863 (not the 665), Pioneer 1018 (not the newer model which has been scaled back). Listen to all these and more and see WHAT YOU THINK!

cnh

Marty913

LuSh wrote: »

Hi Marty,

While I respect your position I would recommend using the MCACC, YPAO or Audyessy in the future. These are not graphic EQ's but instead Parametric and are designed to counter act sonic problems within a room usually in the frequency domain but sometimes in the time domain as well (Audyessy). These are not simple measurements you can adjust manually, these are EQ'd adjustments based on measurements the system has taken in your room. A product might be tuned very neutrally out of a box, when put into a bright room the product might sound bright...even the most modest EQ system should tame at least some of the brightness down.

Sorry LuSh, I didn't mean to imply that I don't run the basic room compensation setup routines like YPAO, Audyessy, etc. I do, and I verify that the basics have been determined correctly (MCACC can be a little problematic sometimes). Usually that amounts to minor stuff perhaps due to mike placement. I do think they're fine for movie or multi-channel modes, or at a minimum a good starting place.

I meant that I do not use tone controls or similar to make specific frequency band adjustments. For 2-channel listening I would of course use direct mode. Sorry for the confusion.

vijayl

Jparker, If u can go lil' beyond $400, there is a good refurb from Onkyo - Onkyo 706 http://www.shoponkyo.com/detail.cfm?productid=TX-SR706S&modelid=64&group_id=1&detail=1&ext_war=1
May be 431.1 shipped is a good price for a good receiver IMO. Offer expires tomorrow..

digitalvideo

A good mid level reciever? You can get an Elite top level Pioneer SC-05 for under $600 on ebay or amazon.com and some other dealers brand new which is a steal.

Marty913

digitalvideo, cheapest advertised on Amazon new/used is between $1200 & $950. Ebay BIN looks to be around $800 shipped for non-authorized dealer. Where are you seeing under $600?? That would be a great deal.

renowilliams

I have a Yamaha RX-V861 reciever and in my opinion it is surperb for H/T But I do find it a little bright in two Channel listening. I have been giving it some time as all my speakers are fairly new. I just got the rears today. Now it does sound its best when set in 2 channel enhancer mode, for two channel listening. Where I think this reciever really shines is in multi channel listening. I think a lot of people in here are not fond of Yamaha recievers, but if you do get an oportunity to listen to multi chanel on an RXV try it.

ND13

H/K and Denon are the way to go, imo. Especially is you are intending on using their amp sections, even if till you can get seperate amplification. I have never had a single issue with any H/K reciever or other piece of their gear, whether vintage or contemporary, Same said for Denon. Both utilize high current amp sections and if using their pre-outs, they are great pre/pros. Imo, you have to go way beyond their price points to do any better.

The only thing I have against Sony, Pioneer, and Yamaha is they sound hollow and tinny.

ND13

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Dawgfish

I currently own a Yamaha V-661, an Onkyo 806, and a Denon 2809. I also owned the Denon 789(same as 1909). The Yamaha has a brighter sound then the other's no matter how much you tweak it. It can sound great at times, but it's fatiguing to listen to music with it for long periods of time. The Denons I've owned have the warmest sound out of the three and the Onkyo is somewhere in between. The Onkyo sounds great with tv and movies, but does not sound anywhere near as good for music as the Denons at least for my tastes and setup. I really loved the sound and features on the Denon 789. It was outstanding. It will push your Energy speakers without any problem at all. My only knock on it is lack of pre-outs to add an external amp(s). That is the only reason I got rid of mine. I bought some RTi-12s and RTi-10s and needed to add some amps to get the most out of the speakers. I replaced the Denon 789 with an Onkyo 806. I vastly preferred the Denon 789's sound over the Onkyo 806. I have since replaced the 806 with a Denon 2809 and have been very happy. The 806 is in the bedroom system now.

If you can try to listen to whatever reciever you are interested in buying before buying and see what you like best. I can highly recommend the Denon 789 (1909) however, especially if you get a great deal on one.