Let's talk about Po...

Jstas

appadv wrote: »

Thanks, I'll consider those units!

Again, I know very little about this stuff but I am here to learn.

Those units are quite expensive, approaching $10K. I only posted those as edification to F1nut's post.

You would be better off with some of the stuff that was already posted or replacing the batteries in your failing unit. You would need the RBC7:

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=RBC7&fnl=3944,2&fnl_basket=3944,3c

At $559.99 for a new unit, replacing the two batteries for about $360 is a better deal. If you are having trouble troubleshooting your problems, call up APC's support line.

Serendipity

If my batteries were failing, wouldn't I get a "Replace Battery" light and the beeping sound?

At my telecommunications internship, I've seen quite a few APC units need a new battery and the first thing that happens is the unit says "Replace Battery."

Plus mine can power a 100W table lamp for hours, so I would think that rules out the battery?

mmadden28

appadv wrote: »

Thanks, I might consider that. A standalone UPS for the PJ and an APC H15 for the audio gear.

However, my HP Digital Entertainment Center z560 needs a UPS too - because it's running Windows XP and the computer can shut down the UPS after the OS has finished shutdown. Also the Lenovo I am using as a music server and my DVR need battery backup too.

The way I'm setting my new HT rig up, with saving some money and limiting the single point of failure, I would get the UPS and Power conditioner separate. I'd get a UPS for the PJ - and maybe perhaps the Xbox360 and DVR (in case something is being recorded). Otherwise everything else will not be on a UPS. There is no need IMHO to put the AVR, Amp, or any other audio equipment on a UPS. This way you can save money on the load requirements of the UPS (or combined PC/UPS) that you get.

In your case, you have to also consider the HTPC and Lenovo. Any reason you don't just use the HTPC as your music server. Is the Lenovo a Laptop (i.e. with built in battery backup?). If you do have the PC trigger the UPS shutdown, be sure to leave enough time for the PJ to cool down.

F1nut

But hundreds of billions of dollars worth of equipment worldwide relies on APC power systems to stay up and running while protected from power surges and spikes. If it's good enough to protect that stuff, it's overkill for your stuff.

No doubt APC makes good stuff, but as with any of this stuff, it only works if it meets the requirements for the application.

How would that choke audio gear? My GFA-545 only draws rougly 150watts when I have it CRANKED.

Something is not right then. My big amp draws a lot more than that at idle.

Jstas

F1nut wrote: »

No doubt APC makes good stuff, but as with any of this stuff, it only works if it meets the requirements for the application.

If you don't size your support equipment to the need of your audio gear, that's not the company's fault, only your own. If his SUA1500 is ample enough to support what he needs then it works for him.

Not everybody has BIG power like you do, man.

Jstas

appadv wrote: »

If my batteries were failing, wouldn't I get a "Replace Battery" light and the beeping sound?

At my telecommunications internship, I've seen quite a few APC units need a new battery and the first thing that happens is the unit says "Replace Battery."

Plus mine can power a 100W table lamp for hours, so I would think that rules out the battery?

Not necessarily. They measure voltage across cells for the bad battery light. You could have a bad battery that won't charge but still produces enough voltage to keep the UPS happy.

But then again, I'm only going by what you are telling us here.

If your unit is still under warranty, call APC. The only thing they don't cover under warranty is batteries.

mmadden28

Hey appadv, check this out if you were still considering the APC H15.

anonymouse wrote: »

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000AHVGA6/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A9B09ZK9BZJQ6&v=glance

APC AV H15 Home Theater 1500VA Power Filter and Power Conditioner $99.99 from TigerDirect through Amazon.

I just bought two more and its free shipping.

W WALDECKER

I have been running a APC H15 for the past eight months and it has worked like a charm.If the voltage on the power grid sags the unit senses it and bumps the power up to 120v.

DarqueKnight

F1nut wrote: »

No doubt APC makes good stuff, but as with any of this stuff, it only works if it meets the requirements for the application.

This is an excellent point.

One thing that people commonly overlook when choosing power conditioning gear for their audio equipment is the peak current demand. A power amplifier's peak current demand for music transients may be many times over the nominal wall current rating, yet lasts only small fractions of a second. When these transient demands cannot be accommodated, music looses lifelike realism (dynamics and detail). This is what is referred to as "choking" the amp.

For example, let's assume that a power amplifier with a nominal 300 watt continuous output and fed from a 20 amp outlet has a peak current draw of 70 amps and that the listener's music content causes frequent transients in the neighborhood of 50 to 60 amps. The circuit breaker does not trip because the transients last for too short a period of time. Since most homes are provided with 100 amp or 200 amp service, the 50 to 70 amp transients can be easily accommodated from the wall.

Now, if you insert a power conditioner with a peak current rating of 40 amps between the amplifier and the wall, you will hear some "constriction" and dulling of the sound because the musical transients cannot be accommodated.

Power conditioning equipment designed for computer gear assumes a load that remains fairly constant with time. Conversely, a power amplifier feeding a music signal into a loudspeaker represents a load scenario that varies wildly with time. Therefore, before adapting a computer power conditioning unit to home audio use, it would be good to consider the following:

1. Can the unit supply the required wattage?
2. Can the unit supply the required peak current?
3. Assuming 1 and 2 are met, can the unit react "fast" enough to keep up with a dynamically varying power amp/loudspeaker load?

I was not able to run a single Parasound JC 1 monoblock (400 watts) amplifier from a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (1500 VA, 50 amps peak current). The JC 1's dynamics and detail suffered considerably when fed from the PPP. This was not surprising since the JC 1's peak current specification is 135 amps. I assumed that the dull sound resulted from the JC 1 frequently requiring transient current well over the PPP's peak 50 amp capability.

Jstas

Power is power. Nothing fancy to it.

If you have an amp capable of drawing twice as much as your UPS or power condition is capable of handling then your UPS or power conditioner IS TOO SMALL!!!

UPS systems for computers, the small, deskside models for supporting desktops, SMALL servers and workstations are not big enough to handle the current draw of most audio systems. However, a modern, enterprise level computing system will show many peaks, daily, as usage goes up and down. If you think that a modern computer system capable of supporting thousands of users simultaneously on a multi-threaded box puts out "a load that remains fairly constant with time" then it's obvious that you have not been in an environment capable of truly taxing your UPS systems.

Believe me, anything from APC, IF PROPERLY SIZED TO YOUR CURRENT DRAW, will be more than adequate. In fact, most UPS and power conditioning units marketed for computer gear will be adequate also. Provided you purchase a unit that can support your gear.

This malarky about UPS and power conditioner units that "assumes a load that remains fairly constant with time" is BS. The guts of any over-priced UPS or power-conditioning unit will be quite similar to what's in any unit intended for computer usage. Physics doesn't change in relation to audio. Whether you are passing 1's and 0's at the speed of light or blowing out Buddy Holly at the speed of sound, power will still be the rate of doing work; measured in watts and watts are the power dissipated by a current of 1 ampere flowing across a resistance of 1 ohm which in turn leads us to an ampere which is a measure of the amount of electric charge passing a point per unit time. ALL UPS units, line conditioners, power conditioners, battery backups and so on are governed by that. Just because somebody puts a fancy box around a basic UPS and says it's "for audio" doesn't mean someone waved a magic stick over it and all of a sudden it some how defies the laws of physics and it's some how better than an ugly box meant to sit in the bottom of a rack with noisy fans and plain, black power cords.

DarqueKnight

I stand corrected.

Up to now, I was not aware that the minute-to-minute or hour-to-hour variations in computer power usage in a data center were analogous to the instantaneous power demands of an audio power amplifier driving a complex load such as a loudspeaker.

Thanks for the insights.

shadowofnight

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I was not able to run a single Parasound JC 1 monoblock (400 watts) amplifier from a PS Audio Power Plant Premier (1500 VA, 50 amps peak current). The JC 1's dynamics and detail suffered considerably when fed from the PPP. This was not surprising since the JC 1's peak current specification is 135 amps. I assumed that the dull sound resulted from the JC 1 frequently requiring transient current well over the PPP's peak 50 amp capability.

After reading up on your PS Audio Plant Premier as well as your Parasound JC 1 , I dont see how that PPP could have current limited your amp for 2 reasons..

First, the PPP is extremely conservatively rated in its standard marketing information, they go on and on how awesome it is driving extremely difficult loads with ease...but then mention its 1200VA rating ( You had mentioned 1500VA...but that is in Europe/Asia only)

" Max Continuous Load 1200VA (US) 1500VA (Europe/Asia) "

Then you dig a little deeper into their white paper type advertising, and you find this...

"Dynamic Power Delivery 0.5 second > 3600VA (US) 5000VA (Europe/Asia) "

Thats for an extremely huge ( Well huge when we are talking audio signals ) 500 millisecond pulse. With actual music being more like this...

" In an informal survey of musical recordings, power bursts were found with durations from a few milliseconds up to several hundred milliseconds, with an apparent clustering in the 80-200-ms range "

...I seriously doubt your kick **** PPP was limiting you whatsoever. Now you may not have liked some of its signal modification like the Multiwave...Cleanwave...etc Or maybe something was wrong with your unit...but after reading the white papers....with those 2 sine wave modifying processes turned off...that PPP should have had no limiting factor on your amp.



Then there is your amp itself.....you might see the lamps in the room dim a bit as those four 33,000uF Filter capacitors charge up , but I guarantee if that huge toroidal transformer has the slightest hiccup inducing input ...those filter caps are gonna be the low impedance source of any needed extremely high current surge for a transient/impedance/low freq/etc.

As a matter of fact your amp has a fabulous design that even goes beyond just an awesome Transformer/rectification/filter capacitance....


" The B+ and B- power for the input and driver stages cannot sag under load because it is supplied by independent transformer secondary windings with independent rectification, filtering and voltage regulation. This preserves soundstage width and depth even when the JC 1 output stage is drawing enormous amounts of current. "


You had something give you bad JUJU with that combination ( Well you did say assumed ) I seriously dont believe it was a lack of transient current.






Also, not only do network computers have vastly changing current needs in short periods now....but gaming pc's are even 10 fold over that. Depending on how many active cores are processing in todays GPU's used in gaming, using an sli gtx295 setup you can go from 120 watt load on the power supply to a 636 watt load in 100 milliseconds or less...and depending on the game and even what part of the game you are in, it can happen thousands of times a minute :eek: Its crazy watching the amps display on the pureAV PF60 display while playing a game...I can see swings from 2.6 amps to like 9.4 amps ( But that also includes everything...cpu/mb/gpu/drives..etc )

DarqueKnight

shadowofnight wrote: »

I dont see how that PPP could have current limited your amp for 2 reasons...

"When heavy peak currents are demanded, the Power Plant has to deliver tons of current to keep its output clean. Only the PPP is capable of delivering up to 50 amps of peak current which is what's needed to handle some loads. The older Power Plants current capabilities vary by model, the smaller 300 and 500 could do about 30 amps peak and the bigger 600 and 1000 could do close to 40 amps."-Paul McGowan, PS Audio CEO

McGowan Audio Asylum Post: Power Plant Current Limit Is 50 Amps

The Parasound Halo JC 1 power amplifier is capable of 135 amps of peak current. If you go to this link and click on the specifications tab, you will find the peak current rating:

JC 1 Specifications

If the PPP is only capable of 50 amps peak and the JC 1 is capable of drawing well in excess of that, why wouldn't the PPP be considered a limiting factor?

Thank you for the clarification on the PPP's US VA rating. I did see that on the PSA website. However, I was going by what is printed on the boxes of each of my four PPP's.

I will defer to the wisdom and expertise of you and others on computer power requirements. Thank you for the additional clarification in that regard.

Jstas

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I stand corrected.

Up to now, I was not aware that the minute-to-minute or hour-to-hour variations in computer power usage in a data center were analogous to the instantaneous power demands of an audio power amplifier driving a complex load such as a loudspeaker.

Thanks for the insights.

You are wrong in your assumptions that your audio equipment can present a load any different than what a modern, multi-core, multi-processor computer system can generate.

I've designed, built and maintain entire data centers where UPS systems were everything from small, rack mounted units of only 4kVA to generators run by diesel engines the equivalent of 7 Hyundai Accents running a generator stator assembly the size of a Buick to charge a battery bank with enough juice to power 25 average American homes for a week. I know a little something about UPS power and power conditioning.

I wish I had charts for you to see what kind of power spikes systems like that see when 60 engineers get the go ahead to run test scenarios on a high availability core and 30 terabytes of hard disk spin up almost simultaneously while 7 servers start chugging away, churning numbers across a gigabit fiber network. Those data centers had power spikes of 120kVA in a matter of seconds. The fan noise alone at that point exceeds levels where OSHA requires hearing protection.

Your stereo with a couple hundred VA of draw is peanuts compared to what most UPS are designed for. If you buy a UPS or power conditioner of any kind, whether it's over-priced stuff from an audio company or from a company marketing towards datacenters, and you do not size it to the needs of your audio equipment, "the instantaneous power demands of an audio power amplifier driving a complex load such as a loudspeaker" are not going to matter a hill of beans.


Oh and a loudspeaker is not a complex load. It's a resistor. Even if more than one driver is in the loudspeaker, it still presents a single load to the amplifier. A variable at that. Not real complex as long and your impedance doesn't exceed, high or low, the capabilities of your amplification circuit's output potential.

DarqueKnight

Jstas wrote: »

You are wrong...

Ok.

Jstas wrote: »

I know a little something about UPS power and power conditioning.

I have already deferred to your superior knowledge about computer stuff. I claim no expertise in this matter. No need to keep reminding me of my ignorance of this topic.

Jstas wrote: »

Oh and a loudspeaker is not a complex load. It's a resistor.

Again, I am in your debt. Up to now, I had assumed that all those capacitors and inductors in the crossover were affecting the speaker's load characteristic somehow (Z(impedance)=R + jX, where X=XC=1/jwC or X= XL=jwL, and w=2 x pi x frequency). My next speaker purchase will be greatly simplified now that I know I can ignore all those pesky impedance curves. Thanks.

reeltrouble1

tree
rope
hang
cut
buried (with boots on)

talk about laying in wait, masterful Raife.

RT1

DarqueKnight

Lasareath wrote: »

So, What did you do?, Did you just plug the JC 1 directly into the wall?, No Power Conditioner?

For a while, yes. Then I tried a passive power conditioner and it worked very well: PS Audio Soloist Premier SE Trial.

Based on my good results with the Soloist, I may try some more sophisticated passive power conditioning equipment for the JC 1's later on.

I consulted with Parasound and PS Audio prior to trying the PPP with the JC 1. Parasound said I would need a commercial grade unit to supply the current demands of the JC 1. PS Audio said that they did not know if the PPP would work with the JC 1 and that some high power amps were incompatible with the PPP.

F1nut

PS Audio said............that some high power amps were incompatible with the PPP.

Correct, that's what they told me as well.

DarqueKnight

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I was not able to run a single Parasound JC 1 monoblock (400 watts) amplifier from a PS Audio Power Plant Premier.

Lasareath wrote: »

Did you just plug the JC 1 directly into the wall?, No Power Conditioner?

My JC1/PPP trial is here: PS Audio Power Plant Premier And Parasound Halo JC 1

shadowofnight

Jstas wrote: »

You are wrong in your assumptions that your audio Oh and a loudspeaker is not a complex load. It's a resistor. Even if more than one driver is in the loudspeaker, it still presents a single load to the amplifier. A variable at that. Not real complex as long and your impedance doesn't exceed, high or low, the capabilities of your amplification circuit's output potential.

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Again, I am in your debt. Up to now, I had assumed that all those capacitors and inductors in the crossover were affecting the speaker's load characteristic somehow (Z(impedance)=R + jX, where X=XC=1/jwC or X= XL=jwL, and w=2 x pi x frequency). My next speaker purchase will be greatly simplified now that I know I can ignore all those pesky impedance curves. Thanks.

If Jstas had only made the statement you quoted him on( You only quoted the speaker as a resistor part )....he would have deserved that slam wholeheartedly and I would have laughed my **** off as you and some others are. But he didnt just say that....from his entire quote you can tell he knows what an impedance plot looks like for an entire speaker assy...not just a single driver alone ....yes multiple drivers and crossovers in the mix ( Crossovers are my favorite part of DIY speaker building...and capacitive and inductive reactance calculations are the best part ) .....and concerning his entire statement...IF for the entire impedance plot for the speaker assy falls within the capabilities of the amp to drive into that load for THAT range of frequencies....then it isnt a very difficult job for an amplifier ( He did say High and Low )

Dont worry Jstas, I really couldnt give a rats **** who is in the conversation....I just couldnt see anyone get slammed when I knew their original statement got the message across.

DarqueKnight

I offer my humblest apologies for my lack of understanding and insight.:o

reeltrouble1

you are shooting much to low, aim higher shadow.

RT1

Jstas

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Again, I am in your debt. Up to now, I had assumed that all those capacitors and inductors in the crossover were affecting the speaker's load characteristic somehow (Z(impedance)=R + jX, where X=XC=1/jwC or X= XL=jwL, and w=2 x pi x frequency). My next speaker purchase will be greatly simplified now that I know I can ignore all those pesky impedance curves. Thanks.

Your posts come off as patronization and smack of sarcasm. You say you don't know yet attempt to bait by posting things like this.

The only thing all those capacitors and inductors in the crossover affect are the drivers and how they respond to the input signal/power. The amplifier doesn't care what is hooked up to it, as long as it has an impedance it can handle. It can be a speaker or a chair vibrator or strobe light or whatever. As long as the impedance is in the range. Every crossover has a single input Some have dual or triple inputs intended for bi or even tri amping. But each input presents a single load to the amplifier. Once it gets passed that initial input stage in the crossover, the amplifier doesn't see it. That is because inductors tend to insulate a power source from a power draw and are mostly used to filter out frequencies and reduce if not eliminate things like a 60 cycle hum present in standard 120V AC outlet.

Capacitors and resistors are the components that color the music. An ideal inductor only has inductance. But in the real world, they tend to have a bit of capacitance and resistance due to the inherent properties of the material used to make them. However, inductors are usually made so that the resonant point that they reach that minor level of capacitance and resistance is usually high enough in the frequency range that it is outside the intended range of use. Therefore, it makes a non-ideal inductor ideal for a certain frequency range. Then again, power transformers are essentially two inductors wrapped inside each other and they step up or step down and change voltage through EM field transmissions.

An inductor is one of the basic electronics components. It is typically used where current and voltage change with time. Because it can store energy in a magnetic field created by the electric current passing through it, it is ideal for delaying and reshapeing alternating currents. Hence it's use in transformers in power circuits or as a frequency filter in signal circuits. They work on Faraday's law of inductance. It's a wire wrapped like a coil, which generates a magnetic field inside the coil. An inductor's ability to store magnetic energy is measured in units of henries. Inductors are why a crossover with multiple speakers attached to it, presents a single impedance load to an amplifier.

In a crossover network, most companies label a speaker with a block picture representation of a speaker. But, in accurate circuit diagrams, a speaker can be represented as a resistor as long as you account for the variable resistance. But in reality, a speaker's voice coil is an inductance coil wound around a bobbin and suspended in a magnetic field. When you cycle a current through the winding, the static magnetic field produced by the magnet attracts and repels the winding as the sine wave of current alternates the charge of the waveform from positive to negative to positive again. To make a speaker work, you attach a diaphragm to a collar on the bobbin and attach the diaphragm to an anchor point to control movement. When the winding is moved by the waveform being passed through it, it moves the diaphragm too. That diaphragm in turn moves air in sync with the waveform that is moving the winding inside the magnetic field. This moving air in turn vibrates your ear drum which your brain then processes in to sound.

If you have a 12683 Hz waveform running through your winding then your winding and diaphragm move up once and down once 12683 times a second. This movement is perceived as vibration by people because it is too fast for our perception to see an individual cycle at 12.7 kHz. But that movement generates a 12683 Hz tone which is perceived as a sound by our ears and brains because we cannot perceive an individual cycle at 12.7 kHz with our ears either.

What does all of that mean? A voice coil (i.e.: a speaker), is just another component in an electrical circuit. The amplifier is just a power source to the circuit and it passes electrical energy to the crossover network in varying frequency. At the other end is an energy converter that changes the electrical energy in to mechanical energy. The amplifier, fundamentally, should not color music in any way. It should be transparent in all respects except in making the waveform taller. Sure, amplifiers can color sound through the way they convert signals (i.e.: tubes vs. solid state) and frequency response range and falloff due to all those inductance coils and resistance circuits. But all an amplifier sees is an input signal to amplify, a power signal to use to amplify and an output to send it all to.

Power is power. You can bend it, shape it and contort it in many ways but power is power. The same laws govern computers as they do speakers and cars and microwaves and kegerators and so on. As Scotty once said "I cannah change the laws of physics, Jim!" A UPS is a UPS whether the end item is a speaker or a computer screen. It's just a battery and a switching circuit. You don't even need a fancy computer to control the switching, you can do it with a simple set off components. They all work on the same principles. There's no black magic about it. It can all be explained by physics. Of course physics doesn't speak English, it speaks numbers and that poses a problem for folks.

reeltrouble1

F1nut wrote: »

Correct, that's what they told me as well.

hmmm...seems to be the case as this is consistent with what I was told by PS Audio as well when I was looking for something for the large SS BAT.

RT1

shadowofnight

DarqueKnight wrote: »

that some high power amps were incompatible with the PPP.

You are a smart cookie and thats why you bought them in the first place Hell, I bought your Compendium too....I wouldnt have bought that from a dummy..so this isnt a pissing contest....just me being home sick with a temp and bored at the moment on a subject I love....so with that.)



I can think of many amps that would be a difficult... if not impossible...load for that PPP...your JC 1 isnt one of them.

" Curl decided he would use a larger 1.9 kVA encapsulated toroidal transformer and 132,000 microfarads of filter capacitance. This base increased by 100% the already pretty "stiff" power supply of the BBQ for a meager 12% increase in watts per channel to 400. The power supply was beginning to approach the "Mother of all Power Supplies" category, claiming a current capacity of 135 amperes on peaks. Not that brute force is everything. Bob Crump insisted on using Harris hyper-fast soft-recovering diodes in all the bridge rectifiers in the main and local supplies, for finesse. They claim a slew rate greater than 130 V/µsecond. "

They increased the power supply by 100% and only increased the output stage by 12% ...they are NOT talking about the input to the power supply section needing 135amps at any given time...that would never happen...not even for millisecond peaks .....the extremely huge low ESR filter capacitors feeding those 9 pairs of 15amp per device capable bipolar transistors take care of those extremely low duration needs for current to the speaker load.

Those monster caps are always in the process of charging/discharging ( Never coming close to fully discharging during musical transients ) for those very high...very short demands. You would be really surprised to see the actual needs on the primary side of that monster toroidal transformer with what the designers put after the multiple secondaries on that puppy. ( Too bad I cant send you the setup I have at work for measuring the instantaneous current draw as well as average current draw for my robotic motors/supplys...its response is lightening fast AND it records the data...ok...just send me your amp to test )





Look at this guy....he just about lost a nut ( Good thing ) when he hooked up one of your JC 1 's to a little measly P600 version Power Plant from PS Audio ( He tried TWO of the JC 1's on one of the P600's as well and overloaded it....yellow light flashing...amps still playing but dynamically compressed....now THAT I believe ) .


" Playing with Power

A day or two before I began to write this review I tried an experiment. I knew the Power Plant couldn’t handle both JC 1s for an extended length of time. But what would happen if I plugged just one into the Power Plant?

No problem. The wattage readout in MultiWave II P1 mode fluctuated between 260 and 280 for the combination of transport, Theta, and single JC 1 monoblock. That left a good 300 Watt headroom for peak loads.

It seemed kind of crazy to listen with only one channel benefiting from the Power Plant. But when I tried it, the transformation I heard was huge. A remarkable clarity emerged, an additional silence, generous helping of air, and a natural shininess that in many respects reminded me of the real thing heard up close. All of a sudden, when listening to the Rachmaninoff, I could hear the air conditioning in the Minnesota Orchestra’s hall.

At least one contributor to a recent dialogue about the sound of digital vs. analog suggested that CDs tend to tip the balance toward the upper midrange and treble. All I can say is that if you’ve ever heard Mahler’s Symphony No. 8 (Symphony of a Thousand) from Row K orchestra of Davies Symphony Hall, you know that the treble impact is such that sustained listening at such levels could contribute to eardrum damage. I never find myself thinking about the presence or absence of a mellow midrange when sitting so close.

Farther back in Davies’ orchestra section, where instruments begin to blend one into the other, treble drops off, and the entire orchestra takes on a resonant glow, I may focus on midrange warmth. But when I’m close to the orchestra in such an acoustically excellent hall, my main attention is drawn to the music’s emotional and visceral impact.

Have you ever sat very close to chamber musicians during a performance? When I first visited my cellist friend Elaine Kreston in her former high-ceilinged Berkeley apartment and stood right next to her as she played, I was stunned by how different her cello sounded than when heard from the middle of an “intimate” concert hall. Her instrument had tremendous force and richness, with a treble edge that is barely audible in larger settings. It took my breath away.

Treble volume and presence drop dramatically over distance, while bass tends to remain constant. This is why when the people across the street turn up the volume on their system and blast pop music you hear the bass far more than the treble. It is also, I believe, one of the reasons why treble sounds as strong as it does on closely miked recordings, especially recordings which position multiple mikes right over strings, cymbals, piccolos, and other high-pitched instruments).

Even with only one channel benefiting from the Power Plant, the Parasounds’ treble glistened in a most arresting manner. Combined with their bass slam, under even greater control as a result of clean power, the results were gripping. I’m not sure the Parasounds would be my amplification of choice when listening to intimate chamber music, a classical song recital with piano accompaniment, a lute solo, or a guitar-strumming folk artist. But on large scaled classical and popular music, music with drums and slam and cymbals and dynamics and clatter and the all get-out, these amps are to die for.

Shortly after this experiment, I again tried plugging both monoblocks into the Power Plant and listening for a short period of time. The yellow light flashed intermittently but nothing blew. Unfortunately, dynamics were so severely compressed that the sound was most unsatisfactory. The power conditioning used with these monoblocks must not in any way attenuate dynamic response. If it does, you’ll miss one of the Parasounds’ great gifts.

Do the Parasounds provide all the liquidity, midrange warmth, and effortless flow of the best tube gear? No. They are paramount on the attack, less so on the decay. Such is the nature of solid state vs. tubes. Though I would never label them recessed in the midrange, cold or mechanical, they are definitely amps that draw attention to the extremes of the audible range. For listeners who value most what the Parasounds can provide, they are a knockout. "

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1103/parasoundjc1.htm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/parasound-jc1-amplifier-8-2004.html

DarqueKnight

shadowofnight wrote: »

I can think of many amps that would be a difficult... if not impossible...load for that PPP...your JC 1 isnt one of them.

It is my practice to send the results of my audio equipment trials to the manufacturer for their comment. This is doubly important since I usually publish the results of my equipment trials and would not want to induce a reader to error. I realize there is always the possibility that I might have done something wrong, misinterpreted data, or that the unit was malfunctioning. PSA advised that they were not surprised by my results. They further advised that I might have better results running the JC 1's in low bias mode. I did not repeat the trial in low bias mode since I had no intention of running the amps in that mode.

If there were something wrong with my JC 1/PPP trial results, I would think that PS Audio would have been quick to point that out since I was interested in buying two additional units. Two other forum members have also shared that they were similarly advised against purchasing PPP's for thier power amplifiers.

shadowofnight wrote: »

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1103/parasoundjc1.htm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/parasound-jc1-amplifier-8-2004.html

I ran across those JC 1 reviews when doing research for my power amp upgrade. There was also an interesting and controversial review of the JC 1 in the April 2003 issue of "Bound For Sound" wherein the reviewer was less than impressed. It turned out that the reviewer had defective samples. He explained this in a follow up article in the June 2003 issue. The Bound for Sound articles are not available for reading or downloading online. They are available for purchase from www.boundforsound.com.

shadowofnight

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ele/1060479506.html

This guy is selling 2 ( Yes TWO brand new...he will sell all 7 though) of these JC 1's for only 2600 a piece...brand new in the box.

Parasound JC-1 MonoBlock Amp - $2600 (Plano)

Brand New, not Refurb or used. Selling 2 Parasound JC-1's. I purchased 7 of these to power my Home theater and have decided to go with a multi channel amp instead of loosing my hearing completely.I will sell all 7 contact me for details. Price is per Amp!
There is no excuse to spend thousands of dollars more on brands like McIntosh and Mark Levinson when you can get class A/AB power at a fraction of their price. These are incredible sounding Amps that will push almost any speaker, especially at 400 watts output power. This listing is for one (1) Amp, however; if you're looking for 7 of the best Amps you can get anywhere then please contact me!

Specifications: Retail Cost is $3999.00 Each




If I hadnt of blown 2,700 ( Funny , my loss was within 100 bucks of the amp...actually it was 2 trips...days apart...1,200 on one trip and 1,500 on the other. Not really THAT big of a deal though....made 8K the year before at the same casino ) at the casino 2 weeks ago I would of had one of our fine polk members in Texas go see if the dude was legit and I would have grabbed one.

mmadden28

Jstas wrote: »

You are wrong in your assumptions that your audio equipment can present a load any different than what a modern, multi-core, multi-processor computer system can generate.......

Oh and a loudspeaker is not a complex load. It's a resistor. Even if more than one driver is in the loudspeaker, it still presents a single load to the amplifier. A variable at that. Not real complex as long and your impedance doesn't exceed, high or low, the capabilities of your amplification circuit's output potential.

But doesn't an amp have to keep up with the speed of rapidly changing audio frequencies? Doesn't the impedance do more than just change with frequency, between a known high and low rating, but change extremely rapidly?
Wouldn't the ability to handle the rapid changes be greatly influenced by the type and quality of the components used?
Isn't that what Damping factor is all about?

Doesn't then the power requirement/demand of that amp need to also be met by the power source including the conditioner to provide extremely rapid changes in the current demand of the speakers?

I realize power conditioners have to be quick to protect from voltage irregularities in sensitive equipment, but does a computer datacenter/system relying on a single Power conditioner really have to provide that same level of rapid response time/rapid current transients as the rapidly changing frequencies in audio (and thus the rapidly changing current requirements fo the amp)? How fast are the transient surges of computer equipment on a single conditoner anyway?

Let it be known my questions above are serious and are not meant to challenge anything or anybody but to get a better understanding.

I would think that a speaker would be considered a complex load even if the high and low impedance limits are known, mainly because of how rapid the changes occur and what components are required to support that rapid change.

The only analogy I can think of right now with the discussion of audio amps and data centers would be something like how vehicles are rated to go from 0 to 60 in so many seconds. We know the high and low requirements, but how well, powerful and fast the engine, transmission, brakes, etc are capable of going from one extreme to another is what makes the difference. A Corvette will get from 0 to 60 much faster than a Chevette. And likewise, the much much much more powerful Diesel powered Train engine, while much more powerful takes much longer to get from 0 to 60, and conversely from 60 to 0. Thus in my mind the ability to provide very rapid transient current demands for Audio, vs. perhaps not as rapid (seconds to fractions of seconds) for Computer power conditioning.

I don't know if that analogy (if that's the right term) makes any sense to anybody outside of my head, but I figured I give it an attempt.

mmadden28

shadowofnight wrote: »

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ele/1060479506.html

This guy is selling 2 ( Yes TWO brand new...he will sell all 7 though) of these JC 1's for only 2600 a piece...brand new in the box.

...

That's insane--to think that at least 4 of those were likely just for surround speakers. Wow.

shadowofnight you seriously have to start using the quote feature. Its difficult reading your posts with respect to figuring out what you are saying or what you are quoting someone else as saying.

F1nut

You are wrong in your assumptions that your audio Oh and a loudspeaker is not a complex load.

So I'm perusing another forum tonight that I'm a member of and come across the following comment from a guy who knows his stuff when it comes to audio, Bob Carver and I quote,

Now suppose the amp is delivering 180 watts into eight ohms using the eight ohm transformer tap, and suddenly the load changes to six or even four ohms (as can easily occur in a complex speaker load) as the frequency changes.

Things that make you go, Hmmmmmm, eh?