Setting Large or small

flr057

My HT room is 12' x 25' with a 70" Mitzubishi, front mains, sub and all components on one end of the room.

My question; my two front mains (Klipsh KLF-10) have two 10"s and a horn in each and are rated at 150 rms. My sub is a PSW 505.

Presently the front mains are set at small on the AVR which seems crazy to me because they will handle a large amount of sound and bass down to down to 32hz.

Here's the kicker, my Yamaha RX V995 is ten years old and doesn't have an adjustable LFE, it is default at 90hz.

So much speaker to be set at 'small'. What do you think?

TECHNOKID

I am far from being a guru but as far as I am concerned, full range speakers should be set to large. Furthermore, your AVR not being able to do LFE justifies that you set your mains to Large. What you want to do is set your speakers in such a way that your speakers and your subwoofer blends and overlap. What I mean, you do not want to loose any of the frequency spectrum (20 - 20khz). This shouldn't be hard to do with your present speakers and subwoofer.

Your subwoofer can range from 23 - 160hz ( http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/psw505/ ), you are saying your speakers can go as far down as 32hz. Personally, I would be content with your speakers alone for music. For movies, your subwoofer is welcomed since it goes down to the 20 hz area. If I were you, I would experiment your speakers set in the area of about 50hz and your sub in the area of 100hz and changed the sub a little lower and the speakers a little higher until you get perfection. Just keep in mind you want to blend and not loose any of the Frequency spectrum and whil;e trying to get as much overlapping as possible.

Cheers

Retro152

flr057 wrote: »

My HT room is 12' x 25' with a 70" Mitzubishi, front mains, sub and all components on one end of the room.

My question; my two front mains (Klipsh KLF-10) have two 10"s and a horn in each and are rated at 150 rms. My sub is a PSW 505.

Presently the front mains are set at small on the AVR which seems crazy to me because they will handle a large amount of sound and bass down to down to 32hz.

Here's the kicker, my Yamaha RX V995 is ten years old and doesn't have an adjustable LFE, it is default at 90hz.

So much speaker to be set at 'small'. What do you think?

Here is a great link on the subject, very informative. http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

jacob.simpson

Thats one awsome receiver what you have, its a work horse and very true to its rated power. My brother has the same for the past 8 years. He paid close to $1500 equivalent in Indian Rupees. lost enough of his savings on this but worth every penny. To add on the reply you need to set it at Large since the Front speakers have 10" woofers and enough power handling. Just fine tune the Sub to augment really low Frequency.

cnh

I've read that article before. And I do follow it but I cringe when I think of setting my towers to small...

On the other hand...this is really ONLY about Home Theater sound. So for 2 channel this is should be thrown out as the rule!

The other thing that's problematic here is that this advice is really sound (no pun intended) for a REALLY good SUB. One that can get down close to 20hz at a minimum of +/- 3db or less. If you don't have at least a good sub. I don't know how warranted this advice is.

Certainly the PSW505 is good enough with a flat response to 28hz. And a lower ceiling at 6db.

cnh

Mr. LS90

test.

TheMARPATNinja7

retro152 wrote: »

Here is a great link on the subject, very informative. http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/128214.html

I've read this article and tried all my options when I first got towers and a new AVR, and I have to say I prefer my speakers set to large. If your speakers are capable of producing midbass without any quality loss, why would you not take advantage of that? Why would people even buy towers to begin with if they were going to send them the same signal that theyd send to a bookshelf speaker? I am a firm beliver that in order to have a complete sound you should take advantage of your current situation, that also take some experimenting, no system is exactly like another...try it out and listen for yourself, let your ears choose and not text on a computer screen. Cheers

BlueFox

If your speakers are even close to being full range set them to large, and run the sub off the front pre-amp outputs. If you set the speakers to small then the AVR uses filters to extract the low frequency, and adding filters into the signal path introduces some level of distortion. Ideally, you want to use a direct mode path through the AVR.

flr057

If I set my LFE/bass out to send the signal to "both" with the front mains and sub then Mains to large, what problem would that cause? The mains go down to 32hz and the sub to 28hz.

Dr. Spec

For HT applications, if the speakers are incapable of playing clean/loud down to ~20 Hz, then they should be set to Small with the appropriate crossover frequency based on their bass capabilities.

While your AVR is fixed at 90 Hz, many newer AVRs offer crossovers down to 40 Hz and this is a good choice for quasi-full-range speakers.

When a speaker is set to Large/Full-Range, none of the bass in that channel is redirected to the subwoofer (unless you choose LFE+Mains). So if the speaker can't play the bass present in that channel, it's lost and you don't hear it. Many DVDs have full-range, full-power bass in all channels (L/R/C/Sur); many enthusiasts erroneously assume there is only deep/strong bass in the LFE channel and that's not true.

Setting the subwoofer management to LFE+ Mains will send the mains a full-range signal, and will also send the subwoofer the bass for both L/R front channels below the selected crossover frequency (in your case 90 Hz). So the subwoofer and the front speakers both play the same bass >90 Hz. This can often result in boomy bloated bass because the bass is being played twice, but you can experiment to see how it sounds.

For music, setting the speakers to full-range is less of an issue unless you listen to source content with significant bass energy below the low-end capabilities of your speakers. Examples would be pipe organ, hip-hop, and industrial - all three can have strong content at/below 20 Hz.

apphd

Great explanation Spec. One of the best/short and to the point about base management without needing to take 10 min. to read, which seems many do not have the time to do.

BlueFox

Dr. Spec wrote: »

For HT applications, if the speakers are incapable of playing clean/loud down to ~20 Hz, then they should be set to Small with the appropriate crossover frequency based on their bass capabilities.

The problem with this is it means the AVR filters the signal. This can add distortion to both the filtered signal, and the remaining signal. Ideally, it is desirable to have a direct path through the AVR with no filter distorting the signal. Of course, this means no sound effects. Just the DVD signal as it was recorded.

When a speaker is set to Large/Full-Range, none of the bass in that channel is redirected to the subwoofer...

True. However, the sub can be driven off the front pre-outs from the AVR, or the front pre-out jumpers from an external amp.

I have been using this method with my LSi15s, LSiC, and PSW1000 sub and there has been no issues with not having enough bass. I can't believe I am missing anything in the low end, and the audio is balanced and clear in all channels.

On the other hand, by having all the speakers set to large I am not having the problems others do with sound levels being low, unequal, etc.

kuntasensei

BlueFox wrote: »

The problem with this is it means the AVR filters the signal. This can add distortion to both the filtered signal, and the remaining signal. Ideally, it is desirable to have a direct path through the AVR with no filter distorting the signal. Of course, this means no sound effects. Just the DVD signal as it was recorded.

Just curious... How do you figure the AVR adds distortion when using the large/small filters or the independently adjustable crossovers in modern AVRs? We're not talking about a listening mode that adds anything to the original signal... We're talking about digital filters designed to mimic analog Linkwitz/Riley filters. Not really sure how that would introduce any kind of distortion (though you do have to be careful with placement/distance settings to avoid gaps in the frequency response across the crossover range due to cancellation/phase).

I would think that you would actually get less distortion, since you're shifting the low frequency load off of the speaker, giving you more headroom from your AVR's amp section. I get what you're saying about wanting an unadulterated signal... but digital crossovers shouldn't exhibit any inherent distortion that I'm aware of. Analog crossovers... whole other story.

Systems

Just set my T90e's to small and it sounds/feels like I have a new set of speakers. The clarity of the mids and highs is much better and the PSW125 rocks the house. Love all the advice in these forums!
Thanks,
kp2:)

Dr. Spec

BlueFox wrote: »

The problem with this is it means the AVR filters the signal. This can add distortion to both the filtered signal, and the remaining signal. Ideally, it is desirable to have a direct path through the AVR with no filter distorting the signal. Of course, this means no sound effects. Just the DVD signal as it was recorded.



True. However, the sub can be driven off the front pre-outs from the AVR, or the front pre-out jumpers from an external amp.

I have been using this method with my LSi15s, LSiC, and PSW1000 sub and there has been no issues with not having enough bass. I can't believe I am missing anything in the low end, and the audio is balanced and clear in all channels.

On the other hand, by having all the speakers set to large I am not having the problems others do with sound levels being low, unequal, etc.

The digital high pass filter in the AVR does not add distortion to the signal.

The typical filter scheme in an AVR is a 12 dB/octave high pass on the speaker channels and a 24 dB/octave low pass on the subwoofer channel.

The basis for this asymmetrical slope is a throw back to the THX days where the speakers were specified as being sealed with an acoustic F3 of 80 Hz. A sealed speaker rolls off at 12 dB/octave, so when an 80 Hz, 12 dB/octave electrical high pass is imposed on such a speaker, the resultant roll-off is 24 dB/octave, which is the same as the low pass slope imposed on the subwoofer. The resultant crossover between the speakers and subwoofer is then a phase-correct 24 dB/octave on both sides.

Of course no one uses sealed speakers with an F3 of 80 Hz anymore, so the whole concept has become an anachronism.

Regardless, your LSi-15 and LSiC are both wholly incapable of reproducing the deep bass which can/will be present in these channels on some DVDs, and they should be set to Small. This is not an indictment of the speakers (I love the LSi line), it's just a physical reality.

Besides the obvious problem of not hearing bass they cannot reproduce, asking these speakers to play deep bass which is beyond their capabilities will definitely create problems with distortion. Cone excursion increases dramatically, the voice coil starts to exit the gap (these are very short throw drivers), and harmonic and intermodulation distortion increases dramatically, which significantly reduces dialogue intelligibility and muddies up the midrange.

One of my favorite DVDs to prove this phenomenon is U-571 in DTS. This DVD has full-range, full-power bass to <20 Hz in all speaker channels (including the surrounds). If the speakers are set to Large and the depth charge scene is played at loud levels, the woofers in all speaker channels are jumping out of their baskets, vainly trying to reproduce the strong 15-30 Hz source material.

There is point where character Tank radios the Control Room and shouts over the bombardment "Control, aft torpedo room ready in all respects". At higher volumes with all speakers set to Large, this dialogue is almost unintelligible from the center channel because of excessive cone excursion as it simultaneously tries to reproduce the depth charges. When the VC partially (or in some cases completely) exits the gap for brief periods of high excursion, the speaker isn't properly reproducing sound. This results in very garbled dialogue.

The speakers are then set to Small with an 80 Hz crossover, the scene is replayed, woofer excursion is much lower, and the dialogue from that scene is now crystal clear.

Dr. Spec

ken.paduch wrote: »

Just set my T90e's to small and it sounds/feels like I have a new set of speakers. The clarity of the mids and highs is much better and the PSW125 rocks the house. Love all the advice in these forums!
Thanks,
kp2:)

Naturally. The 5-1/4" woofers have a limited excursion capability and will behave much better when high-passed. With low cone excursion, THD and IMD goes way down, and midrange clarity goes way up.

These speakers have a rated F3 of 48 Hz, so an appropriate crossover frequency in the AVR is 80 Hz. With a filter slope of 12 dB/octave, the filtered response of the speaker will be ~12 dB down at 40 Hz. And it starts to roll-off acoustically <50 Hz anyway.

kuntasensei

Thanks for confirming what I was saying, Dr. Spec. And yeah... those depth charges in U-571... perfect example (and a good way to rattle your teeth out!).

In BlueFox's case, he says he's using the speakers set to Large but with the subwoofer connected to the main L/R pre-outs. My issue with that is:

1) You're then relying on the analog filter in the subwoofer to filter out bass above 80Hz to reduce the risk of directionality.

2) Using the analog filter on the sub can induce phase shift and delay, making proper distance setting more difficult to find (and further throwing off phase, since the distance/delay control in your AVR essentially acts as a variable phase control).

3) As Spec is saying, that method doesn't filter out bass below the capabilities of the speakers themselves, which will muddy and distort the sound.

Using the digital crossover alleviates all of those issues. You turn the filter on your subwoofer all the way to its limit or bypass it so you aren't inducing delay or shifting phase (since all the filtering will be done on a digital level in the AVR), you get a nice clean transition with no phase shift due to the crossover's Linkwitz/Riley phase characteristics, and your speakers play the mids and highs much cleaner, both for the physical reasons that Spec named and for the reduced load on the amplifier. I guess if you're used to low listening levels or like the sound of distortion, you're fine that way... but man, I hate to see some good LSi speakers going to waste like that!

adam2434

I agree that it is usually best to run all speakers set to small for HT. If your speakers can reproduce bass solidly to 60 Hz (or lower), a 80 Hz crossover setting is usually a good choice if your receiver/processor has it.

Another reason for setting the crossover to 80 Hz is to eliminate the majority of the LFE truncation effect, if your receiver/processor applies the low pass filter setting globally on the sub out. This has been discussed in a couple earlier threads.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39509&highlight=truncation

For 2 channel music, you can experiment with running the fronts large with no sub to determine if you like that better. Also, for music, you can try lower crossover settings to create a more ideal blend, assuming your receiver has lower filter options and assuming your fronts can handle low frequencies well.

All-in-all, it really comes down to experimentation and personal preference though.

pearsall001

I think a lot of guys have a "Moncho" complex regarding their floorstanders. What they fail to realize is that there are very, & I mean very few true full range speakers out there. Especially at the price points (and size restraints)that most of us here on this forum own. Now, that's not to say that they can't be very satisfing musically, as I'm sure they are.

But it pretty much comes down to physics...you can only get so much out of a 5", 6" 7" 8" etc. driver bass wise. Once you free the speaker from trying to produce what it can't then the speaker really opens up & is now performing at it's peak. Integrating a quality sub or two is the ticket to sonic bliss that a single pair of speakers can't come close to. It does take some time to properly achieve seemless integration, but once you do...look out.

ntculenuff

lots of good info in this thread
i myself have tried many different configurations with my system as it has grown.
with my current setup:
fronts: large
center: small (better voice clarity)
rears: large
receiver: sub out set to sub; x-over for small speakers set to 60hz
just more info to add i guess. the beauty about this hobby is that what is good for me may not be good for you.

play and adjust you can always reset and start over yeehaw

Dr. Spec

kuntasensei wrote: »

Thanks for confirming what I was saying, Dr. Spec. And yeah... those depth charges in U-571... perfect example (and a good way to rattle your teeth out!).

In BlueFox's case, he says he's using the speakers set to Large but with the subwoofer connected to the main L/R pre-outs. My issue with that is:

1) You're then relying on the analog filter in the subwoofer to filter out bass above 80Hz to reduce the risk of directionality.

2) Using the analog filter on the sub can induce phase shift and delay, making proper distance setting more difficult to find (and further throwing off phase, since the distance/delay control in your AVR essentially acts as a variable phase control).

3) As Spec is saying, that method doesn't filter out bass below the capabilities of the speakers themselves, which will muddy and distort the sound.

Using the digital crossover alleviates all of those issues. You turn the filter on your subwoofer all the way to its limit or bypass it so you aren't inducing delay or shifting phase (since all the filtering will be done on a digital level in the AVR), you get a nice clean transition with no phase shift due to the crossover's Linkwitz/Riley phase characteristics, and your speakers play the mids and highs much cleaner, both for the physical reasons that Spec named and for the reduced load on the amplifier. I guess if you're used to low listening levels or like the sound of distortion, you're fine that way... but man, I hate to see some good LSi speakers going to waste like that!

All filters will introduce a phase rotation - even the digital filters in the AVR. They are just more precise than the analog low pass filter in the subwoofer. That is why it's common to see the subwoofer distance greater than actual after an auto-set-up routine is run, the low pass in the AVR is adding latency.

The speaker high pass adds latency too obviously, but if the net latency does not cancel due to slope/FR asymmetry (e.g., a non-THX vented speaker with fairly deep bass extension will often do the trick), then there is a subwoofer distance adjustment by the AVR.

kuntasensei

Dr. Spec wrote: »

All filters will introduce a phase rotation - even the digital filters in the AVR. They are just more precise than the analog low pass filter in the subwoofer. That is why it's common to see the subwoofer distance greater than actual after an auto-set-up routine is run, the low pass in the AVR is adding latency.

The speaker high pass adds latency too obviously, but if the net latency does not cancel due to slope/FR asymmetry (e.g., a non-THX vented speaker with fairly deep bass extension will often do the trick), then there is a subwoofer distance adjustment by the AVR.

I've been happy with Audyssey's detection of my subwoofer's distance. It comes out half a foot different than physical distance, which jives perfectly with the spec'd delay time of my EQ/subsonic filter. But typically, AVRs are pre-compensated for the latency of the processing/crossover (though Onkyo has been known to screw that up) because they're designed to mimic Linkwitz/Riley crossovers where phase issues are minimized.

What's problematic with Audyssey (and presumably other auto set up programs) is that it measures based on the first sound that hits the mic... and room acoustics and speaker placement can play hell with that. Place a subwoofer too close to a resonant wall, it'll mistake the reflected/resonated sound for the first impulse. Also, if you don't take care placing the mic (for instance, placing it too close to a room boundary or under the level of your headrest on your seating), you can affect the speaker detection or equalization such that it puts the other channels out of phase with the subwoofer.

In other words, system integration is COMPLICATED. But if you're tweak-happy like some of us, you can get amazing results.

artinaz

Excellent responses by Dr. Spec. Too often we have empirical opinions being passed around. Its good to see your posts Sir!

Another article that talks about this. Check out Pg 10 of http://www.audioperfectionist.com/PDF%20files/journal2rl.pdf

TECHNOKID

artinaz wrote: »

Excellent responses by Dr. Spec. Too often we have empirical opinions being passed around. Its good to see your posts Sir!

Another article that talks about this. Check out Pg 10 of http://www.audioperfectionist.com/PDF%20files/journal2rl.pdf

Great article artinaz!

pearsall001

Absolutely great article!!! I can attest to how well a pair of fabulous monitors & dual quality subs can sound as compared to a pair of floorstanders. No contest in my book.

dholmes

Since someone mentioned Audyssey on distance of subs,mine shows up at 30 ft.My subs arent close to any walls,wonder why it does that?

ment

pearsall001 wrote: »

I think a lot of guys have a "Moncho" complex regarding their floorstanders. What they fail to realize is that there are very, & I mean very few true full range speakers out there. Especially at the price points (and size restraints)that most of us here on this forum own. Now, that's not to say that they can't be very satisfing musically, as I'm sure they are.

But it pretty much comes down to physics...you can only get so much out of a 5", 6" 7" 8" etc. driver bass wise. Once you free the speaker from trying to produce what it can't then the speaker really opens up & is now performing at it's peak. Integrating a quality sub or two is the ticket to sonic bliss that a single pair of speakers can't come close to. It does take some time to properly achieve seemless integration, but once you do...look out.

i agree to this .....

comparing the "twang" of the bass guitars from the track "Under Pressure" with both "TSI 400 only " vs "TSI 400 + 8" powered sub) and crossed at 80Hz (HArman Kardom 245 AVR) from Queens Rock Montreal concert DVD ..... the sound quality significantly improved with the latter setup ...... the mid and highs are cleaner and more detailed. drums and bass guitars have some more emotions to savor

which is why am saving up for a good subwoofer for my TSI-300

kuntasensei

dholmes wrote: »

Since someone mentioned Audyssey on distance of subs,mine shows up at 30 ft.My subs arent close to any walls,wonder why it does that?

A few thoughts on possible causes:
1) Are you using the sub's crossover at all? If so, don't. Defeat it or turn it to its maximum.
2) What phase do you have the speaker set to, 0 or 180? Room acoustics can throw off optimal phase, meaning sometimes reversing the phase produces the best blend with the other channels. If it is vastly out of phase, Audyssey's method of detection can adjust the distance to compensate (since the distance/delay effectively acts as a variable phase control).
3) Are you putting the mic on a tripod? I've seen people hold the mic in their listening position, which makes things a mess because of the low frequency contamination of just holding the mic (not to mention your body being behind it). You want to put the mic on a tripod, placed where your ears would normally be, making sure to put the mic slightly above the level of your headrests and ensuring that this position doesn't put the mic within 12" of the back wall.
4) You said "subs", so I'm assuming you're running dual subs. Are they co-located or spaced out from each other? Before running Audyssey, you need to do everything you can to ensure that the two subs are both similar distances from the first mic position and make sure there isn't already some cancellation going on between the two subwoofers that could throw off the distance detection (i.e. the first impulse being canceled due to the subs being slightly out of phase, resulting in the mic detecting the primary reflection as the first impulse).

Dual subs are kind of a bear to get set up properly. Unless you're using an Audyssey product tailored to doing adjustments specifically for separate subs (where Audyssey can do separate alignment and equalization of each sub for optimal results), you have to really get them as in-sync as possible before running Audyssey to yield good results.

dholmes

Thanks,Im using the Velodnye sm1 eq,the subs are beside my L-R spk.I did use a tripod,can I just adjust the distance by changing it to the correct # of feet?

kuntasensei

Well... you can, but there's no telling if the physical distance will be the correct distance setting. Using an inline EQ does monkey with the proper delay time for the sub, but... not that much. I'm using an ART-351 EQ just for the subsonic filter, and I can run Audyssey with it active and get one reading then run it with the EQ bypassed and get 1 foot difference. But in your case, I don't know that it would mess it up that much.

I would set it to physical distance, then do your equalization with the Velodyne (which will do the broad parametric equalization), THEN try running Audyssey to fine tune it. Might get you good results and a more accurate distance/delay. Of course, if you're not bothering to use Audyssey's equalization... set it to physical distance, run the SMS-1 EQ, enjoy.

solarrdadd

Howdy, I'm wondering if given my set-up anyone can recommend settings, i.e., small or large, crossover frequency and lpf of lfe. All of my speakers are Polk except for the sub. With the exception of the surround backs (tsi100) all of the rest are large speakers, I even consider the tsi200 i have to have descent size to it, i use them as surrounds and I have RTi10 for the front and CSi5 for my center. The funny part is the two settings I mentioned both sounded pretty good to me but everything I read says I'm killing my a/v receiver with full band for all or not using my sub enough. I'm just not sure, at one point I had all my speakers set to full band, then i changed it to rti10-40, csi5-60, rti200-60 and rti100-70. slso, for whatever settings you might recommend, what should the sub crossover be set too, it goes from 50 - 150hz and then also has a volume knob. I'd love to hear your feedback. Please & Thank You!