Sunfire Amps

metal83
metal83 Posts: 1,219
edited March 2009 in Electronics
So i've started getting rather curious about these Sunfire Amps. My Emotiva XPA-3 is the first dedicated Amp i've ever owned, and i'm very intersted in trying something else. Don't get me wrong, i do enjoy the Emotiva Amp, but it would be nice to have something to compare it with (another brand). I've read that the Sunfire Amps are warm sounding, and that they would go good with the RTiA series speakers since they are a bit on the bright side.

Who here owns/owned a Sunfire Amp, or has at least personally heard one, and what are you're impressions?




Thanks,
Dan
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    I've been wondering the same thing lately myself. I'm planning on getting a Rotel RMB-1095 when I go to externals in the HT, but have been considering one of the Sunfire Cinema Grand amps as a possible next step sometime down the road.

    I've read a bunch of reviews for them, and they seem to get a lot of praise. One of the things I found astonishing was how light they are. The Cinema Grand Signature 7 puts out 425 wpc, and weighs in at a not so hefty 35 pounds IIRC. Most of the other multi-channel amps out there weigh in somewhere in the 60-90 range.
    The nirvana inducer-
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    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,590
    edited March 2009
    ...The Cinema Grand Signature 7 puts out 425 wpc.... and is now mine! I just bought one from the 'Gon. It has not come home yet but I will post my impressions when it gets here. It will be pushing north of 600wpc at my SDA-1c's, and 400+ to the surrounds. This will be the last amp I should ever need to by for H/T use. I still want some sweet tubes for a two channel rig...
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • metal83
    metal83 Posts: 1,219
    edited March 2009
    I was looking at the Sunfire TGA 5200/5400 models.
    I'd be using it with my Pioneer Elite 92, RTi A7's (A9's in the future), RTi A3's, and CSi A6.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,590
    edited March 2009
    I can connect you with a signature 5 for 1300.00, and you can get the cinema grand series 200wpc for about 7-800 bucks... the tga's are about twice as much and no real improvement in performance. Save the money and get your a9's sooner rather than later.

    Here is a link to the owners manual for the cinema 7. the specs are a near match for the cinema 5 as well...

    http://www.sunfire.com/manuals/Cinema%20Seven%20Manual.pdf
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • bigred7078
    bigred7078 Posts: 477
    edited March 2009
    OMG another sunfire thread:rolleyes:

    hehe;)
    Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,590
    edited March 2009
    bigred7078 wrote: »
    OMG another sunfire thread:rolleyes:

    hehe;)


    perhaps we should call this the EMO Suc!S thread?:p
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • metal83
    metal83 Posts: 1,219
    edited March 2009
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    I can connect you with a signature 5 for 1300.00, and you can get the cinema grand series 200wpc for about 7-800 bucks... the tga's are about twice as much and no real improvement in performance. Save the money and get your a9's sooner rather than later

    There's one on Ebay currently at $400.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250383392781


    Sherardp said the 5200 can be had new for around $1200 or so through a certain connection on Audiogon.
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited March 2009
    metal83 wrote: »
    There's one on Ebay currently at $400.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250383392781

    That's just what the current bid is. It will sell for a lot more than that. It still has 4 days left in the auction...The real bidding on ebay doesn't happen until the last couple of minutes.
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
    Marantz UD5005 universal player
    Parasound Halo P5 preamp
    Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
    PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
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  • metal83
    metal83 Posts: 1,219
    edited March 2009
    comfortablycurt wrote: »
    That's just what the current bid is. It will sell for a lot more than that. It still has 4 days left in the auction...The real bidding on ebay doesn't happen until the last couple of minutes.

    Ahhh i see. I never actually won a bid on ebay, i've only bought items with a "buy it now" option.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,590
    edited March 2009
    metal83 wrote: »
    There's one on Ebay currently at $400.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=250383392781


    Sherardp said the 5200 can be had new for around $1200 or so through a certain connection on Audiogon.

    the 5200 cannot be had for less than 1700 at this time...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/SUNFIRE-CINEMA-GRAND-POWER-AMP-BOB-CARVER-SIGNATURE_W0QQitemZ300297283869QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300297283869&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

    this one is the way to go. were it not for my already having my sig7 on the way I would jump all over this.. this is the one I could get at 1300... If the auction goes to the end it will be about 1900


    the manual for the sig7
    http://www.sunfire.com/manuals/Cinema%20Seven%20Manual.pdf
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • Sherardp
    Sherardp Posts: 8,038
    edited March 2009
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    the 5200 cannot be had for less than 1700 at this time...

    http://cgi.ebay.com/SUNFIRE-CINEMA-GRAND-POWER-AMP-BOB-CARVER-SIGNATURE_W0QQitemZ300297283869QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300297283869&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

    this one is the way to go. were it not for my already having my sig7 on the way I would jump all over this.. this is the one I could get at 1300... If the auction goes to the end it will be about 1900


    the manual for the sig7
    http://www.sunfire.com/manuals/Cinema%20Seven%20Manual.pdf


    Nothing wrong with your model and congrats on your purchase, however I heard that light on the front goes out rather often so I went for TGA 5200 series. Priced new was 1475 and that was shipped to me in Japan. I bought from these guys, talk to Santy and have him quote you

    http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&Twinaudiovideo
    Shoot the jumper.....................BALLIN.............!!!!!

    Home Theater Pics in the Showcase :cool:

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=73580
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited March 2009
    Sunfire amps are one of the best values in amplifiers you can find on the planet (used), and a damn good value new. @ one person in 50 who hear them don't prefer them over anything but tubes (personal poll). The sound is pure, uncolored, and incredibly accurate, with a soundstage as big as the Grand Canyon.

    They are bulletproof (I shipped one & UPS put a forklift thru the side of the amp; it STILL worked!) & will drive ANY load short of 0 ohms. I use a Cinema Grand Sig model for my 2 channel system; currently using 4 channels to bi-amp a pair of Carver Amazing-III speakers. I plan on using two of the other channels to run a pair of huge DIY subs. Am I a Sunfire fanboy? You betcha....
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • metal83
    metal83 Posts: 1,219
    edited March 2009
    TNRabbit,
    Thanks for your input, it's making me crave one of their amps even more.
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2009
    comfortablycurt wrote: »
    I've been wondering the same thing lately myself. I'm planning on getting a Rotel RMB-1095 when I go to externals in the HT, but have been considering one of the Sunfire Cinema Grand amps as a possible next step sometime down the road.

    I've read a bunch of reviews for them, and they seem to get a lot of praise. One of the things I found astonishing was how light they are. The Cinema Grand Signature 7 puts out 425 wpc, and weighs in at a not so hefty 35 pounds IIRC. Most of the other multi-channel amps out there weigh in somewhere in the 60-90 range.

    I've always been curious about this. Just how do you get that kind of power out of an amp that weighs less than 40 pounds, unless it's a hybrid class D...? I've almost never seen multi-channel amps with those ratings at 35lbs. Are the power figures for that amp, perhaps, rated at 1khz? Or unless they're ICEPower class D...like the new Rotels that weigh even less?

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited March 2009
    cnh,

    I am SS amp junkie myself and always wonder how Carver Amps are have power ratings a lot higher than other Class AB amps for a lot less weight. The Carver Magnetic Field Transformer is something to wonder for.

    From my experiences with TFM55x, TFM35x, M1.5T amps, I found Carver Amps are very powerful indeed. The rated power will be delivered for a short time (20-20KHz) and you won't notice any difference when listening to rock or other materials. But if you listen to lots of classical, the transient response is shallower than normal Class AB amps that weights twice more due to the the power reserve (transformer capacitance) lower in the magnetic field transformer. But these amps sound good for HT and plenty of power to rock your house. I don't think the new sunfire amps to be Class D but I have been wrong before.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • bsoko2
    bsoko2 Posts: 1,449
    edited March 2009
    I have a Carver M1.5t amp now for a couple of months and it runs my SDA SRS 2.3's. I got it for 385 on ebay and all I can say is "WOW".

    Bill
    My 2012 HT Room - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416077/bsoko2-new-ht-june-2012
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  • skipf
    skipf Posts: 694
    edited March 2009
    I've heard Rabbits rig and it is indeed sweet. I've also heard the Sunfire 300x2 and 600x2 amps and they are just as sweet. All of the Sunfire amps are excellent units. No one that I know has ever had a failure, though I'm sure there have been a few. The Sunfire amps that were made in Washington are better than the new ones made in Japan, so I'd recommend buying used.
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  • skipf
    skipf Posts: 694
    edited March 2009
    Here's how Sunfires get so much power out of light, cool running amps:

    http://www.sunfire.com/whitepapers/Sunfire_Amplifier_Whitepaper.pdf
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited March 2009
    skipf wrote: »
    Here's how Sunfires get so much power out of light, cool running amps:

    http://www.sunfire.com/whitepapers/Sunfire_Amplifier_Whitepaper.pdf

    That's an interesting article. Do all Carvers use smaller multiple capacitors as part of that design strategy? Or have I miss-read some?

    Also, if this design strategy is so effective...why doesn't everyone else adopt it. Certainly the Chinese could easily reverse engineer something like this and produce it a lot cheaper...make just enough mods not to get sued? And what about the post above that about 'sustained' power output of Carvers as opposed to great dynamic power?

    You learn something everyday even if you haven't processed all of it quite yet...

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • engtaz
    engtaz Posts: 7,665
    edited March 2009
    Heck skip, your ALS's sang with those amps. I'm sure glad we got to listen to them thru your ALS's.
    engtaz

    I love how music can brighten up a bad day.
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited March 2009
    cnh wrote: »
    That's an interesting article. Do all Carvers use smaller multiple capacitors as part of that design strategy? Or have I miss-read some?

    Also, if this design strategy is so effective...why doesn't everyone else adopt it. Certainly the Chinese could easily reverse engineer something like this and produce it a lot cheaper...make just enough mods not to get sued? And what about the post above that about 'sustained' power output of Carvers as opposed to great dynamic power?

    You learn something everyday even if you haven't processed all of it quite yet...

    cnh

    I don't know about the older Carver amps, but the Sunfire amps use multiple 20-ampere output transistors (I do believe you did misread about capacitors). The Track Downconverter is the key to the amps high current, high power, and ability to drive a low-R load. Bob is definitely a visionary when it comes to putting together unique electronic circuit designs. Of course, all he'd say at CarverFest was that he learned from the REAL masters & combined their genius into his products (the true definition of an inventor, don't ya think?)...
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited March 2009
    I remember back in the 70s, or was it the 80s, he said he could tune a solid state amp to sound just like any tube amp, and under a blind A/B test no one could tell the differance.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
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    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
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    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,259
    edited March 2009
    BlueFox wrote: »
    I remember back in the 70s, or was it the 80s, he said he could tune a solid state amp to sound just like any tube amp, and under a blind A/B test no one could tell the differance.

    Yeah, that was a much ballyhooed demonstration and there are those who would disagree with your statement.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited March 2009
    Read it for yourself:

    http://carvermk2.com/docs/Carver%20Stereophile%20Challenge.pdf
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • Ron Temple
    Ron Temple Posts: 3,212
    edited March 2009
    bsoko2 wrote: »
    I have a Carver M1.5t amp now for a couple of months and it runs my SDA SRS 2.3's. I got it for 385 on ebay and all I can say is "WOW".

    Bill
    Bill, welcome to the Carver club :). Better than the Outlaws, huh?

    RT

    Combo rig:

    Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
    SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
    PB13Ultra RO
    BW Silvers
    Oppo BDP-83SE
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  • metal83
    metal83 Posts: 1,219
    edited March 2009
    Sherardp wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with your model and congrats on your purchase, however I heard that light on the front goes out rather often so I went for TGA 5200 series. Priced new was 1475 and that was shipped to me in Japan. I bought from these guys, talk to Santy and have him quote you

    http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/search2.pl?seller&Twinaudiovideo

    I emailed that person last night, received a reply this morning.
    I was told there is no way they can come close to $1200. The lowest price this person said they would do for the Sunfire 5200 was $1550, and that doesn't include shipping or credit card charges (credit card charges:confused:).

    So unfortunately it looks like i'm going to have to pass on that.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,590
    edited March 2009
    metal83 wrote: »
    I emailed that person last night, received a reply this morning.
    I was told there is no way they can come close to $1200. The lowest price this person said they would do for the Sunfire 5200 was $1550, and that doesn't include shipping or credit card charges (credit card charges:confused:).

    So unfortunately it looks like i'm going to have to pass on that.

    add to that I am talking about 400wpc not :cool:200.... Metal, did you chase the links I gave you?
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • metal83
    metal83 Posts: 1,219
    edited March 2009
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    add to that I am talking about 400wpc not :cool:200.... Metal, did you chase the links I gave you?

    Yeah in all honesty i'm not that worried about 400wpc, i think 200wpc would be good enough for my A7's, A6, and A3's.

    I did look at those links you gave me. The Ebay listing you posted is still at a decent price, but has 2 days left. I know you said it could be had for $1300 or something, but it has wear and scuffing and it's missing some legs. So honestly i'd rather just hold off for a bit. I'm not in a huge rush considering i do have an Amp hooked up already.

    Maybe you should grab it since the other one fell through, no?
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,590
    edited March 2009
    metal83 wrote: »
    Yeah in all honesty i'm not that worried about 400wpc, i think 200wpc would be good enough for my A7's, A6, and A3's.

    I did look at those links you gave me. The Ebay listing you posted is still at a decent price, but has 2 days left. I know you said it could be had for $1300 or something, but it has wear and scuffing and it's missing some legs. So honestly i'd rather just hold off for a bit. I'm not in a huge rush considering i do have an Amp hooked up already.

    Maybe you should grab it since the other one fell through, no?

    No.... I will keep looking, but there is a sweet BIN

    http://cgi.ebay.com/SUNFIRE-CINEMA-GRAND-5-CHANNEL_W0QQitemZ130291802925QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item130291802925&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

    I would ask for pictures of HIS unit though as the picture is a factory photo
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited March 2009
    Yeah but his feedback sux:

    Seller: musicinfiniti5218nt (115)
    Feedback: 83.3 % Positive
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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