The US produces crappy cars

nooshinjohn

cnh wrote: »

UAW may be still getting paid a higher salary but THEY don't design the cars they assemble. They have nothing to do with the fact that the big three design their cars to fail in a certain number of years. I'm currently a member of a class action suit against GM concerning Engine gasket failures that they've known about for years and continued to use knowing full well that their antifreeze Dexcool eats away at them and will lead to an 800 to 1000 dollar repair in about 60-75000 miles?

Gaskets that don't disintegrate have been available for over a decade? They cost about 50-100 dollars to buy for us? In order to save 50 bucks a vehicle GM lost a 150 million dollar law suit on this? Now as I may recieve my 450 dollar refund will I be paying more than that to bail them out?

Look on the internet....recalls, failures, junk parts, etc., etc. are all over American makers. The fact that some foreign cars are made in the U.S is not relevant because they were engineered under a different model of what a car should be and how it should work, i.e., that it should be reliable and run without much repair for at least 100K miles, and actually much longer than that.

cnh

there is so much wrong her ethat its unbelievable!:eek:

Let me start with the top and work down, as I have experience here on multiple counts. First, while it is true that they can only assemble the crap they are given, the fact is that if the companies had more working capital to start with they could inverst more in quality rather than finding ever cheaper ways of doing things. the cause of this is sadly the unions... the second item you mention is the lower intake gaskets on GM's 3.1 and 3.4 liter engines. As a service advisor, I wish I had a nickel for every one of them I have seen. The fact here is that most owners do not properly service their vehicles and this is a CONTRIBUTING cause, though not the only one. Again, G.M. was forced into cheaper methods of manufacture due to excessive labor/retiree costs due to the labor unions. The Subaru plant I worked at intakes/heads are assembled by hand rather than machine, and this is probably the way it should be. The leaks that GM engines suffer from are caused by a dog-tooth type locator cast in the engine block so the machines that assemble them can properly align them. I concede this is a poor design but again was made to save on labor cost rather than some scheme to cost people money.

I have a friend that is a designer for GM at their west coast studios, and I asked him once... "it costs far more to design an ugly unreliable car than it does a good one, so why does GM still do it the way the are now." His comment was that the american market is essentially dead for american companies to do business in. There is only a 3% profit margin in domestic production vs. 15/25% margin offshore. the cause of this is that detroit has first give away to much to the unions and second to litigation. Several years ago Ford lost several landmark cases regarding product safety. The first that I will site involved the 1988 death of a 17 year old boy after his factory stock restored 1964 1/2 mustang exploded in a fireball after being rear ended at over 70 miles per hour by a drunk driver. The gas tanks in these cars were located below a cardboard panel in the trunk of the vehicle. The family won a wrongful death suit against Ford for more that 30 million on a claim that the design was faulty. The fact that the father/son failed to properly strap the tank to the trunk floor was irrelevent. also irrelevant was the fact that Mustang met and exceeded safety standards of the time.

The next case was the death of a young girl, also struck by a drunk driver while driving her Ford Escort. her father tried to save money by buying the 1987 model, which did not have airbags rather than the 1988 model that did...
When the girl was broadsided by the drunk and died at the scene, the father blamed FORD and not the drunk!!! He did not blame himself for chosing the wrong car!!! His lawsuit cited that the technology EXISTED to install airbags prior to 1988 and Ford's failure to do so was negligence. Again the car met all safety standards of the time and exceed others. The jury in this case awarded more than 30 million even though the airbag would not have deployed in a side impact collision...

The first thing needed in the american auto industry would be the demise of the labor unions. The next is a serious case of tort reform and lastly, a return of the skilled artisans and craftsmen that thought of the automobile as art rather than just a job....;)

Lowell_M

macleod wrote: »

true. The unions dont design the cars. However, they suffocate the automakers with bloated workforces, sky high wages, benefits and pensions that the market wont bear and all but refuse to ever take any cuts so the automakers have to make cuts in their build quality to remain competitive. Either that or price their cars higher than the japanese brands.

Its a pretty sad state when gm has more resources tied up in managing a pension plan than they do in building cars!

+1.....

Lowell_M

appadv wrote: »

Corvettes Rock!

QUOTE]

+10

cnh

nooshinjohn wrote: »

there is so much wrong her ethat its unbelievable!:eek:

Let me start with the top and work down, as I have experience here on multiple counts. First, while it is true that they can only assemble the crap they are given, the fact is that if the companies had more working capital to start with they could inverst more in quality rather than finding ever cheaper ways of doing things. the cause of this is sadly the unions... the second item you mention is the lower intake gaskets on GM's 3.1 and 3.4 liter engines. As a service advisor, I wish I had a nickel for every one of them I have seen. The fact here is that most owners do not properly service their vehicles and this is a CONTRIBUTING cause, though not the only one. Again, G.M. was forced into cheaper methods of manufacture due to excessive labor/retiree costs due to the labor unions. The Subaru plant I worked at intakes/heads are assembled by hand rather than machine, and this is probably the way it should be. The leaks that GM engines suffer from are caused by a dog-tooth type locator cast in the engine block so the machines that assemble them can properly align them. I concede this is a poor design but again was made to save on labor cost rather than some scheme to cost people money.

I have a friend that is a designer for GM at their west coast studios, and I asked him once... "it costs far more to design an ugly unreliable car than it does a good one, so why does GM still do it the way the are now." His comment was that the american market is essentially dead for american companies to do business in. There is only a 3% profit margin in domestic production vs. 15/25% margin offshore. the cause of this is that detroit has first give away to much to the unions and second to litigation. Several years ago Ford lost several landmark cases regarding product safety. The first that I will site involved the 1988 death of a 17 year old boy after his factory stock restored 1964 1/2 mustang exploded in a fireball after being rear ended at over 70 miles per hour by a drunk driver. The gas tanks in these cars were located below a cardboard panel in the trunk of the vehicle. The family won a wrongful death suit against Ford for more that 30 million on a claim that the design was faulty. The fact that the father/son failed to properly strap the tank to the trunk floor was irrelevent. also irrelevant was the fact that Mustang met and exceeded safety standards of the time.

The next case was the death of a young girl, also struck by a drunk driver while driving her Ford Escort. her father tried to save money by buying the 1987 model, which did not have airbags rather than the 1988 model that did...
When the girl was broadsided by the drunk and died at the scene, the father blamed FORD and not the drunk!!! He did not blame himself for chosing the wrong car!!! His lawsuit cited that the technology EXISTED to install airbags prior to 1988 and Ford's failure to do so was negligence. Again the car met all safety standards of the time and exceed others. The jury in this case awarded more than 30 million even though the airbag would not have deployed in a side impact collision...

The first thing needed in the american auto industry would be the demise of the labor unions. The next is a serious case of tort reform and lastly, a return of the skilled artisans and craftsmen that thought of the automobile as art rather than just a job....;)

Some good points there. I don't disagree completely. I never said Unions are good or bad. I just think that labor protection is not an evil thing. Just like management and CEOs, Unions can become corrupt and many are. But so is the other side. The important thing is not to 'apologize' for either! And just as some laborers can become lazy because of Unions, some CEOs and managers can get a sense of entitlement and self-importance that can lead to fantastic excess and white collar crime. To feel they 'deserve' to take whatever they want!

That's what I don't understand about conservative arguments. Are we supposed to believe that the Corporation always has OUR best interests in mind? How is that any different than having a Pollyanna view of Unions?

In any case our economic problems are global in nature, neither Unions nor Corps. have any idea of how to clean up this mess. Throwing money at the problem in terms of Gov't spending might not work. Having a Tax cut X-mas won't do it either. I'm afraid we have a long decade ahead of us. And everyone will be losing a lot more jobs--the Americans, the Japanese, the Europeans, the Chinese, the Indians....the list continues. The problems transcend what both our posts allude to above, I'm afraid.

cnh

nooshinjohn

thank you for the kind words...
One thing to remember is that the government supplanted the workers rights/safety and other union factors when it created OSHA some 40/50 years ago. the only thing unions have been after since is MONEY!!! The execs that used to run Car companies LOVED CARS! Th last guy that ran a car company that truly loved the automobile was caught doing lines of coke with :DCurt:p... I mean the FBI, John DeLorean. Granted he was an egotist if ever there was one, but when you single handedly force GM to build the GTO I guess you are entitled to be a bit full of yourself. The lawyers have supplanted car guys and all lawyers love is money and more money, and then they hire more lawyers to tell them that what theay have done is legal. The unions dont care because they got their cut too, and all that is left is a closed factory and Union workers screwed out of jobs because they bought into the crap. To fix detroit, open season on corporate lawyers and union bosses, then let guys that love cars run the show again...

warren

We bought a new 2000 Saturn wagon in Honolulu, great car. no problems, had it shipped to Atlanta when I retired from Pearl Harbor, just traded it in on a new Aura, Saturn 4 dr, sedan, techno grey, great sound system with xm satalite radio, and On Star. This American car is great!!!!

dfranks

Have had a ton of vehicles over the years (16 or so) mostly trucks couple of hot rods, and 1989 911GT. The most comfortable,best fuel mileage(of the trucks) quickest off the line, all the way to 70mph. So far with only a window adjustment since new. i do all the maintenance myself. Is my 06 Dodge Ram 2500, with 5.9L cummins.
At a little over 400hp/800lbstorque to the wheels, and well on it's way to 500hp.
And yeah I beat lots of imports, a couple of mustangs and one p-offed guy in a R/T Charger, and i especially love the looks on their faces when they get their buns handed to them by a big ole truck. It get's 17mpg in the city and i have seen 24mpg on the hwy,(canadian gallons). And it'll haul a 30'trailer all day and night if needed.
As far as that comment about the cars being crappy.... Yep I agree with ya but between the big three they can sure build a truck.

Danny Tse

timlitton wrote: »

My 87 Honda Prelude in college had almost 200,000 on it when it got TOWED for having a low tire. It happened to be towed the day I left to go home for spring break and when I came back, the impound fees were worth more than the car. If not for losing it to the impound lot, who knows how much longer I could have driven that thing?

You really want to know? My friend had a 1991 Honda Prelude that he purchased used when the car had about 20,000 miles. He would eventually put over 300,000 miles on that car without engine or transmission rebuild. And on top of that, he sold the car for $2,000 to his coworker. :eek:

Jstas

Keiko wrote: »

I feel honored John. Welcome back. Yugoslavians produced the Yugo. You know...;)

Really? You sure? 'Cause I was told that the Yugo was a great communist conspiracy with Hitler (who really isn't dead, ya know?) to give the commie pinkos a TRUE "people's car" like he did for Germany with Volkswagen. I was told that Hitler felt that the Trabant wouldn't do and that a car made out of sawdust and held together with bubble gum, bailing wire and de-esterized tree sap was not befitting of a world super power. I know that the Yugoslavians built them though.

But, I mean, I know that the prevailing opinion is that unions produce "crappy cars" but I had no idea that unions also produced Yugoslavians. You said it yourself, right here:

Keiko wrote: »

MacLeod wrote: »

Unions produce crappy cars.

And the Yugoslavians. :rolleyes:

Or did I make a mistake?

Jstas

Keiko wrote: »

Nope! You're right on the crack pipe. :rolleyes:

Hey man, that ain't fair. I don't do drugs.


Drugs do me! :eek:


Nah, seriously, I'm always like this.

Jstas

Keiko wrote: »

I know. Pass the bong please.

Why are you up so early anyway?

Or is it just that you're up so late?

Jstas

Keiko wrote: »

Up late...Just finished an 8 ball. No sleep tonight.

Oh, so you're the one on drugs! I see.

Well, it snowed about 12-14 inches here last night and I had to be in at 5 am to do some changes in the service window on my systems. I've been sitting here since and wasted my time because they decided after I already made the changes to reschedule. So I just undid the hours worth of work I did. Now it's about 7 am and normally this place is getting pretty busy but even the streets of Philly here are empty.

Buncha sissies can't handle a bit of snow.




I'm bored and lonely.



But at least I'm not cold and there are no wolves after me.

Jstas

Keiko wrote: »

Ol man winter still hitting you guys hard huh. I'm always up late. Wife works nights so I'm up until she gets in usually. I'm bored and lonely to, but at least we have each other John. We don't have wolves here. Only wild pigs. Fortunately I have you to protect me for now.

At least wild pigs yield wild porkchops which can be then used to make...wait for it...PORKCHOP SANDWICHES!

I never heard of wolf chop sammiches.

Barefoot

The Cadillac CTS is not a crappy car. It may be about 6 years late to the party, but it's definitely not a crappy car.