Onkyo 806 AVR-bi amp with Polk SDA's

mhw58

I have Polk SDA 1C's as my front speakers and SDA 2 B's as my rears. I presently have a home theatre system with an Onkyo 595 receiver. I've been
thinking of upgrading to a newer HDMI receiver and have been looking at
the Onkyo 806. I'd only be using it for 5.1 and it puts out 130 WPC and has an option where you can supposedly bridge the 7.1 channels with the fronts and put out 260 WPC to the front speakers. Does anyone have this receiver and used this function? Just wondering what the results were.
Thanks, Mike

comfortablycurt

The Bi-amp feature on AVR's isn't really bi-amping, it's actually bi-wiring. You're not going to be getting any extra power output from it, as the power is still all coming from the same power block. The amp isn't going to double it's output just because the speaker is connected to two pairs of outputs.

Some people have reported some very slight improvements in sound quality, but the majority of people who have tried it reported absolutely no differences. In fact, most people have said it wasn't worth the cost of extra speaker wire.


You really need some external amps to make those SDA's shine, so whatever you do, make sure that the AVR you get has pre-amp outputs. The 806 has them, so no worries there.

mhw58

comfortablycurt wrote: »

The Bi-amp feature on AVR's isn't really bi-amping, it's actually bi-wiring. You're not going to be getting any extra power output from it, as the power is still all coming from the same power block. The amp isn't going to double it's output just because the speaker is connected to two pairs of outputs.

Some people have reported some very slight improvements in sound quality, but the majority of people who have tried it reported absolutely no differences. In fact, most people have said it wasn't worth the cost of extra speaker wire.


You really need some external amps to make those SDA's shine, so whatever you do, make sure that the AVR you get has pre-amp outputs. The 806 has them, so no worries there.

Thanks for your response, I see you have the Onkyo 606, how do you like it?
I'm not very smart about bi amping and bi wiring. This is what the Onkyo
806 owners manual says about it:

The FRONT L/R and SURR BACK L/R terminal posts
can be used with front speakers and surround back
speakers respectively, or bi-amped to provide separate
tweeter and woofer feeds for a pair of front speakers that
support bi-amping, providing improved bass and treble
performance.
• When bi-amping is used, the AV receiver/AV amplifier
is able to drive up to 5.1 speakers in the main
room.
• For bi-amping, the FRONT L/R terminal posts connect
to the front speakers’ woofer terminals. And the
SURR BACK L/R terminal posts connect to the front
speakers’ tweeter terminals.
• Once you’ve completed the bi-amping connections
shown below and turned on the AV receiver/AV
amplifier, you must set the “Speakers Type” setting to
“Bi-Amp” to enable biamping (see page 47).
Important:
• When making the bi-amping connections, be sure
to remove the jumper bars that link the speakers’
tweeter (high) and woofer (low) terminals.
• Bi-amping can only be used with speakers that support
bi-amping. Refer to your speaker manual.


I've been reading some reviews on the 806 and some people claim this
'bi-amping' makes a huge difference, others say it doesn't. My SDA's are set up for bi-amping so I'm just curious if it would be worth trying. I haven't made up my mind about the Onkyo 806.
Mike

nooshinjohn

not to put to fine a point on it, but you really need to amp up my friend. whatever reciever you try to run with that setup is going to be pushed to the brink. I would strongly encourage you to get separate amps to drive the sda's because the single power supply in a receiver simply cannot deliver enough current to adequately supply the power two sets of SDA's need to run properly and may run the risk of damaging them...

hearingimpared

I believe the rule of thumb for SDAs for power is minimum 200 wpc.

comfortablycurt

mhw58 wrote: »

Thanks for your response, I see you have the Onkyo 606, how do you like it?
I'm not very smart about bi amping and bi wiring. This is what the Onkyo
806 owners manual says about it:

The FRONT L/R and SURR BACK L/R terminal posts
can be used with front speakers and surround back
speakers respectively, or bi-amped to provide separate
tweeter and woofer feeds for a pair of front speakers that
support bi-amping, providing improved bass and treble
performance.
• When bi-amping is used, the AV receiver/AV amplifier
is able to drive up to 5.1 speakers in the main
room.
• For bi-amping, the FRONT L/R terminal posts connect
to the front speakers’ woofer terminals. And the
SURR BACK L/R terminal posts connect to the front
speakers’ tweeter terminals.
• Once you’ve completed the bi-amping connections
shown below and turned on the AV receiver/AV
amplifier, you must set the “Speakers Type” setting to
“Bi-Amp” to enable biamping (see page 47).
Important:
• When making the bi-amping connections, be sure
to remove the jumper bars that link the speakers’
tweeter (high) and woofer (low) terminals.
• Bi-amping can only be used with speakers that support
bi-amping. Refer to your speaker manual.


I've been reading some reviews on the 806 and some people claim this
'bi-amping' makes a huge difference, others say it doesn't. My SDA's are set up for bi-amping so I'm just curious if it would be worth trying. I haven't made up my mind about the Onkyo 806.
Mike

Yeah, I have a 606. I love it, though I wish I would have stepped up to a 706 or an 806 instead. The 606 doesn't have any pre-amp outputs, so connection of an external amp is impossible with it.

Overall I love the sound of it though...If I had to characterize it, it has a sound that's sort of on the edge of being bright...but not overly bright by any means. Some people don't like that, but it depends on the setup. The Monitor 7A's I'm running with it right now have a very warm sound to them, which is balanced very nicely with the brighter nature of the Onk'. Overall I've found it's sound quality to be pretty well balanced.

I found the Onkyo to be much more user friendly than some of the other AVR's I demo'ed. The setup menu's are a lot more straight forward and simpler to figure out than the Sony and the Yamaha that I demo'ed at the same time.

I myself have never used the bi-wiring feature on it, though I will at least be trying it when I get some RTi8's soon. I'm not anticipating much, if any, of an improvement. I have the extra speaker wire lying around though, so I figure I might as well at least give it a shot.

Go ahead and give it a try by all means if you have the extra wire laying around. Who knows, you may end up preferring it. Don't be prepared to get blown away by a huge difference or anything like that though.



As others have said though, SDA's are a very hard speaker to drive, and put a lot of stress on an amp that isn't up to the task. Especially if you're going to be driving 4 of them with the Onkyo. I would very strongly recommend picking up some external amps for it. Even though the Onkyo's have the 4 ohm mode on them...they still aren't really designed to run loads of 4 ohms for long periods of time, at high volumes. Especially with two pairs of them connected.

You'd probably be alright to use the 806 for a while...but getting some externals to hook up to it would really give you the most improvement.

hearingimpared

Curt,

SDAs are not hard to drive as a matter of fact they are pretty sensitive. I've heard 1Cs driven by a 20 wpc tube amp and they sounded wonderful. The 200 wpc rule of thumb goes for solid state amps and at 200 wpc and above really makes them sing. The recommended power for my 1.2 TLs is 50-1000 wpc the same goes for the 2.3 TL and for the CRS+ 50-750wpc. So as you can see they are not really hard to drive.:)

comfortablycurt

hearingimpared wrote: »

Curt,

SDAs are not hard to drive as a matter of fact they are pretty sensitive. I've heard 1Cs driven by a 20 wpc tube amp and they sounded wonderful. The 200 wpc rule of thumb goes for solid state amps and at 200 wpc and above really makes them sing. The recommended power for my 1.2 TLs is 50-1000 wpc the same goes for the 2.3 TL and for the CRS+ 50-750wpc. So as you can see they are not really hard to drive.:)

Really? I always thought it was the opposite. I was under the impression that they presented a very difficult load to drive because of the complexity of the XO's. Thanks for informing me of my mistake.:)

Come to think of it, now that you mention it, I've heard of several people running SDA's with real low wattage tube amps before.

There is definitely a world of difference between tube amps and solid state though. 100 SS watts is about the equivalent of 10 tube watts in my experience. I've been playing guitar for about 10 years now, and have used both tube and SS amps. Tubes are the way to go in those regards.

suprafantx

hearingimpared wrote: »

curt,

sdas are not hard to drive as a matter of fact they are pretty sensitive. I've heard 1cs driven by a 20 wpc tube amp and they sounded wonderful. The 200 wpc rule of thumb goes for solid state amps and at 200 wpc and above really makes them sing. The recommended power for my 1.2 tls is 50-1000 wpc the same goes for the 2.3 tl and for the crs+ 50-750wpc. So as you can see they are not really hard to drive.:)

+1000

Marty913

While my Carver wa being repaired I was forced to use my HK for a couple of weeks driving my 1C fronts & SDA2 surrounds. The HK probably delivers a clean 65-70 into 4 ohm (50 into 8 ohm) and performed just fine. Obviously the 125w Carver into 8 ohm (maybe 160 or so into 4) is a vast improvement but the HK showed absolutely no signs of strain. Given it was only a couple of weeks and the HK is a relatively high current receiver, I would have to agree with hearingimpared that 150+ may be desirable but a good clean 50-75 is just fine.

mhw58

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Really? I always thought it was the opposite. I was under the impression that they presented a very difficult load to drive because of the complexity of the XO's. Thanks for informing me of my mistake.:)

Come to think of it, now that you mention it, I've heard of several people running SDA's with real low wattage tube amps before.

There is definitely a world of difference between tube amps and solid state though. 100 SS watts is about the equivalent of 10 tube watts in my experience. I've been playing guitar for about 10 years now, and have used both tube and SS amps. Tubes are the way to go in those regards.

I've been driving my 4 Polk SDA's along with a big Polk Center channel for years with an Onkyo 595 receiver rated at 75 WPC and have never had a problem. I can play 5.1 SACD's and dvd audios and they sound great, the receiver has never had any clipping issues, tweeters have never shut down.
The Polks are relatively easy to drive. I did find this interesting comparison chart between the Onkyo 906, 876 and 806:
http://www.faqware.com/Receivers/Onkyo_receiver_comparison_2008.html

This talks about the 876 and 906 doing hi power bridging delivering 220 WPC to the front speakers but says the 806 doesn't do this.
Mike

digitalvideo

For recievers have you looked into the Pioneer's, Marantz and Denon?

Pioneer has a great model (Pioneer Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH) for $559 and the Marantz SR 5003 is in the same class, and the Denon has many models to choose from too, all great recievers. But if you want really high end for bragging rights go with the Pioneer Elite SC-05/07/09 which will cost over $1300 for the lowest end of the SC series.

I still have the Denon 5.1 but will upgrade Monday to the Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH because I don't think the little extra features on the SC-05/07 is worth over $1399 over the 01TXH $599 price.

mhw58

digitalvideo wrote: »

For recievers have you looked into the Pioneer's, Marantz and Denon?

Pioneer has a great model (Pioneer Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH) for $559 and the Marantz SR 5003 is in the same class, and the Denon has many models to choose from too, all great recievers. But if you want really high end for bragging rights go with the Pioneer Elite SC-05/07/09 which will cost over $1300 for the lowest end of the SC series.

I still have the Denon 5.1 but will upgrade Monday to the Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH because I don't think the little extra features on the SC-05/07 is worth over $1399 over the 01TXH $599 price.

I'm open to other makes of receivers, I'm trying to hold my budget to $1000. I'm reading a great review of the Yamaha 863. I'm looking for a receiver that does good upscaling to 1080p and has great audio too. The Onkyo 876 gets good reviews. I like the Marantz too. Denon appears to be much more expensive than the other makes. I'll look into that Pioneer Elite too.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Mike

hearingimpared

PS: I think the sensitivity of my 1.2 TLs is 92 or 93 db. That certainly is not a hard speaker to drive.

digitalvideo

mhw58 wrote: »

I'm open to other makes of receivers, I'm trying to hold my budget to $1000. I'm reading a great review of the Yamaha 863. I'm looking for a receiver that does good upscaling to 1080p and has great audio too. The Onkyo 876 gets good reviews. I like the Marantz too. Denon appears to be much more expensive than the other makes. I'll look into that Pioneer Elite too.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Mike

I did a lot of research on the internet and going into different stores to hear the recievers hooked up to 5.1 and 7.1 speaker systems and the Pioneer sounded the best to me. I ordered the Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH on ebay for $559. Checkout all the specs, it has all the features needed for today's technology and for years to come.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-VSX-01TXH-Elite-A-V-Theater-Receiver-VSX01TXH_W0QQitemZ390030143246QQcmdZViewItemQQptZReceivers_Tuners?hash=item390030143246&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

thsmith

mhw58 wrote: »

I have Polk SDA 1C's as my front speakers and SDA 2 B's as my rears. I presently have a home theatre system with an Onkyo 595 receiver. I've been
thinking of upgrading to a newer HDMI receiver and have been looking at
the Onkyo 806. I'd only be using it for 5.1 and it puts out 130 WPC and has an option where you can supposedly bridge the 7.1 channels with the fronts and put out 260 WPC to the front speakers. Does anyone have this receiver and used this function? Just wondering what the results were.
Thanks, Mike

I do not think you can bi-amp stock SDA 1Cs, they have 1 pair of speaker terminals.

mhw58

thsmith wrote: »

I do not think you can bi-amp stock SDA 1Cs, they have 1 pair of speaker terminals.

Duh, you're right! I just looked at mine and they do have one pair. I'm not sure why I thought they had 2. Guess that rules out bi-amping them.
I went to Circuit city today and they are selling the Denon 889 receiver for
$599 which is 30% off. Seems like a pretty good receiver, especially at that price.
Mike

mhw58

digitalvideo wrote: »

I did a lot of research on the internet and going into different stores to hear the recievers hooked up to 5.1 and 7.1 speaker systems and the Pioneer sounded the best to me. I ordered the Pioneer Elite VSX-01TXH on ebay for $559. Checkout all the specs, it has all the features needed for today's technology and for years to come.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-VSX-01TXH-Elite-A-V-Theater-Receiver-VSX01TXH_W0QQitemZ390030143246QQcmdZViewItemQQptZReceivers_Tuners?hash=item390030143246&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Does the Pioneer receiver have the 'Audyssey' setup for the setup and playback of the speakers? This feature seems to get good ratings on other receivers.
Mike

thsmith

Pioneer has MACC not Audsessy

mhw58

thsmith wrote: »

Pioneer has MACC not Audsessy

What are the reviews on Macc? Quite a few reviews I've read give high marks for the Audsessy.
Mike

woodsman10b

Ive read a few reviews on the JAMO AVR-793 and this receiver looks very compatible and therefore comparable with most others you guys have mentioned here. I have not heard the sound of this line as of yet mainly because the store that was near me that carried them has closed. I do enjoy the Jamo speakers that I purchased in the mid 90's very much, and have heard some of their others and was also impressed. This company hails from Denmark. I have read that this receiver can bypass the digital 7.1 and can operate in 2-channel mode and it appears that the wattage increases for this purpose, so if it does this is a nice option. Here are some specs I did find=

System AV Receiver
Weight (kg/lb) 13,6/29,98
Dimensions (mm/in)17,125x14,645x5,90
AllDiscreteOutputStages
VolumeControlGain Logarithmic -80 dB to +10 dB (1 dB steps)
powerOutput8Ohm1Khz 7 x 100 W/ch
powerOutput6Ohm1Khz 7 x 135 W/ch
powerOutput4Ohm1Khz 7 x 180 W/ch
peakPower8ohm 316 W/ch
peakPower6Ohm 406 W/ch
peakPower4Ohm 513 W/ch thd 0.08%
dampingFactor 60
toneControls Yes (+/- 10 dB)
dolbyDigital
dolbyDigitalEx
dolbyProLogic
dts
dtsES
dtsNeo6
multiChannelAnalogueInput
multiChannelAnalogueInputBass
cinemaFilter
lateNightMode
adjustableSpeakerDistance
digitalCrossoverMethod
Triple crossoverFrequencies Available 40/60/80/100/120/150
analogueAudioInputs 4 sets
AVInputsRearPanel 3 sets
AVInputsFrontPanel 1 set
videoInputsRearPanel 2 sets
digitalAudioInputRear 2 opt. + 2 coax.
digitalAudioInputFront 1 opt.
analogueMultichannelInput Yes (5.1)
signalInputSensitivity 200 mV, 50kOhm
preampOut Yes (7.1)
audioRecordOut 1 set
digitalAudioOut 1 opt. + 1 coax.
videoOutComposite
AndSvideo 2 sets
VideoOutComponent 1 set
speakerConnections
BananaComp
LfeSubwoofer
headphoneJack
N numberOfPresets 33
sensitivityFm Les than 2
snRatioFm 70 dB (IHF-A)/68
dB tunerThd 0.3% / 1.0% / 3.0%
displayDimmer
sleepTimer
abSpeakerDrive A + B
selectable dac Yes (x8)


Amplifier with massive toroidal transformer and high grade capacitors. Power rating is often the first amplifier specification you look at. However, it only tells little about the amplifiers ability to drive speakers.

A much more important factor is the amplifiers ability to deliver current. A factor becoming even more crucial in multi channel AV receivers!

Therefore AVR-793 features a massive toroidal transformers and high grade capacitors: 4 x 15,000 µF for extra stability and large instant power reserves. This ensures enough current to always keep the speakers in a ?tight grip?. Even the most demanding peaks are reproduced with life like accuracy and dynamics. Just one factor which sets an excellent amplifier apart from merely a good one. The AVR-793 delivers 135 watts in 7 channels measured in 6 ohm.

What does it play? We have all relevant decoders built in to the AVR-793: Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic IIx, DTS, DTS-ES and DTS Neo:6 ? if you for some reason have a source with another decoder you just hook it up with the multi channel input also for DVD-Audio and SACD. It you have active speakers you can use the multichannel output.

We have built in component video switching for you optimal comfort if you wish a high quality picture quality from your DVD combined with ease of use from your receiver.

polkmeister

Regarding the Onkyos... I bought the TX-SR606B from Amazon recently - I loved it 98%, but it had significant hum with Audyssey engaged with Blu-Ray. This is a well documented problem with this model.. read up on forums. Some say it is serial-number specific. Being a perfectionist, this bugged me, even though Audyssey isn't needed if the volume is cranked way up for Blu-Ray movies. So I availed myself of Amazon's excellent exchange policy and got another 606. Same problem. One forum poster (not here) said to rewire my AC supply line with a good ground. Geez... I did consider doing this, but decided to try an easier route. I paid Amazon an extra ~300 and upgraded to the TX-SR806. Wow! Not only zero hum, but this baby SOUNDS way better and drives 4 ohm loads to boot (606=6ohm min). Perhaps the sonic improvement is having the extra 30WPC headroom (606 is 100wpc, 806 is 130wpc). Highly recommended.;)

thsmith

mhw58 wrote: »

What are the reviews on Macc? Quite a few reviews I've read give high marks for the Audsessy.
Mike

I think most people like it and I had no issues with my 816 but to me Audsessy with up to 8 positions just does a better job beyound just the main LP.

mhw58

polkmeister wrote: »

Regarding the Onkyos... I bought the TX-SR606B from Amazon recently - I loved it 98%, but it had significant hum with Audyssey engaged with Blu-Ray. This is a well documented problem with this model.. read up on forums. Some say it is serial-number specific. Being a perfectionist, this bugged me, even though Audyssey isn't needed if the volume is cranked way up for Blu-Ray movies. So I availed myself of Amazon's excellent exchange policy and got another 606. Same problem. One forum poster (not here) said to rewire my AC supply line with a good ground. Geez... I did consider doing this, but decided to try an easier route. I paid Amazon an extra ~300 and upgraded to the TX-SR806. Wow! Not only zero hum, but this baby SOUNDS way better and drives 4 ohm loads to boot (606=6ohm min). Perhaps the sonic improvement is having the extra 30WPC headroom (606 is 100wpc, 806 is 130wpc). Highly recommended.;)

I've pretty much decided to buy the 806, I think it's the best bang for your buck receiver. I've read mostly rave reviews of it. Have you had the blue dot issue with blu ray, apparently it can introduce blue dots in some blu ray movies but it seems to mainly be a problem if you use a PS3 which I don't.
Mike

rockygreatdane

i have onkyo 876 bi amped my rti 10s so its 5.1 because you lose your powered surround back outputs when you biamp so to get 7.1 i used onkyo m282 on surround back pre outs but you get the same audio output signal as your fronts because the pre out for surround back is the same as the surround back power outputs audio signal. Am i wrong?? It sure sounds the same usually there is not much sound coming from your surround backs. Can anyone tell me if i m really gaining anything by using the reicevers internal bi amping option or am i just losing my real surround backs fxi 3 Do you think I should just throw the jumper bars back on my rti 10s and go back to a normal 7.1 hook up i ll use the m282 for zone 2 any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated Thanks

hearingimpared

Welcome to Club Polk rockygreatdane. Stick around and you'll get answers.

rockygreatdane

Thanks hearingimpared

rockygreatdane

rockygreatdane wrote: »

i have onkyo 876 bi amped my rti 10s so its 5.1 because you lose your powered surround back outputs when you biamp so to get 7.1 i used onkyo m282 on surround back pre outs but you get the same audio output signal as your fronts because the pre out for surround back is the same as the surround back power outputs audio signal. Am i wrong?? It sure sounds the same usually there is not much sound coming from your surround backs. Can anyone tell me if i m really gaining anything by using the reicevers internal bi amping option or am i just losing my real surround backs fxi 3 Do you think I should just throw the jumper bars back on my rti 10s and go back to a normal 7.1 hook up i ll use the m282 for zone 2 any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated Thanks

can anyone help with this

hearingimpared

bump

Marty913

rockygreatdane wrote: »

i have onkyo 876 bi amped my rti 10s so its 5.1 because you lose your powered surround back outputs when you biamp so to get 7.1 i used onkyo m282 on surround back pre outs but you get the same audio output signal as your fronts because the pre out for surround back is the same as the surround back power outputs audio signal. Am i wrong?? It sure sounds the same usually there is not much sound coming from your surround backs. Can anyone tell me if i m really gaining anything by using the reicevers internal bi amping option or am i just losing my real surround backs fxi 3 Do you think I should just throw the jumper bars back on my rti 10s and go back to a normal 7.1 hook up i ll use the m282 for zone 2 any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated Thanks

I don't have this receiver but I'm gonna hazard a guess here because it will take schematics or a call to Onkyo to answer and it's been bumped so perhaps a guess is in order. Just keep that in mind.

Normally your pre-outs would be "paired" with your amp-outs. By informing the receiver via the menu system that you are Bi-Amping the amp-outs to the fronts, it would seem logical to me that the pre-outs would also be redirected / remapped which would explain why the backs sound like they are receiving a front main signal. Make sense? If that's the case, it would only make sense to throw the jumper bars back on IF you want 7.1. IF you want to remain 5.1 with a arguably better (or at least possibly better) front, the you should remove the m282 from the mix (ie: no back channels). Given the lack of true 7.1 input sources some might prefer the 5.1 version, except & unless if you use the matrix modes for 7.1. If anyone has a different guess, jump in here.

rockygreatdane

Thanks Marty I called onyko you are right You could tell right away the backs sounded the same as the fronts I m gonna put the jumpers back on and see if there is much diffrence with out bi amping The fronts do sound great bi amped listening to stereo. I ll see how it sound in 7.1 Thanks alot for your help