Best value for analog CD: new CDP or ext DAC?

Erik Tracy

So, I'm seriously contemplating going to the dark side...um I mean the 'warm side' to get more sonic goodness from my CDs by trying an analog signal path.

I have a Sony DVD player that doubles as my CD player -which is currently connected to my AVR via fiber optic Toslink. So my AVR is doing the final DAC conversion with Burr Brown DACs.

But, by and large, my CDs sound harsh/brittle/bright.

Soo.....I've been wondering what kind of improvement I could achieve by:
A) Getting a good/used deal on a 'warm' CDP - such as the Jolida (damn you NJPolker for posting interest in this same model I've been eyeing )

or

Getting a good/used deal on an external DAC and hooking the DVD player to it via toslink, then analog to my avr.

I can hook either option up to my AVR using analog inputs, then force the AVR to go into a Pure Direct Mode that keeps the signal path analog all the way to the speakers.

But I was wondering what would be the best bang for the buck?

Is the most sonic improvement to be heard at the DAC stage, or should I start at the Transport first and just get a whole better unit for both transport and DAC?

Thanks for your input,
Erik

fbm211

Rega CDPs and transports are said to be on the warm side.And you can always add a dedicated DAC later. Of course the jolida is probably the best option.Some people say optical can be on the harsh side and prefer coax(spdif)as it isnt as harsh.Your ears will be the best judge though.

BlueFox

I have a similar situation. In the living room, I am using my 1999 Sony DVD player as a digital transport into a Benchmark Dac1. This works great and produces excellent sound. I found that using a better quality digital interconnect sounds better than a good fiber cable between the player and the Dac1.

As a side-note, in the HT room I am using a Sony 9100ES DVD/SACD player which has gotten good reviews for its SACD/CD playback. Using the Dac1 in this setup and switching between 2 channel SACD, and CD through the Dac1 you would be hard-pressed to tell the differance.

I like the idea of external DACs since it makes life easier to upgrade to a better unit if need be. Plus an external DAC will have multiple inputs allowing you to have multiple digital sources. Maybe today you only have the DVD player, but if you ever get a music server then you already have the DAC.

Erik Tracy

fbm211 wrote: »

Rega CDPs and transports are said to be on the warm side.And you can always add a dedicated DAC later. Of course the jolida is probably the best option.Some people say optical can be on the harsh side and prefer coax(spdif)as it isnt as harsh.Your ears will be the best judge though.

Thanks for the tip....I might try the coax vs toslink comparison.

Question on cable type for the coax/spdif.

On monoprice's website, their digital coax is multiuse listed for subwoofer applications too....I thought RG59/75-ohm coax was not meant for audio applications.

If the two are interchangeable, does that mean I could use a standard RCA/RCA audio patch to use for digital coax?

Thanks

rayslifecycle

Digital coax may look like a typ RCA - but it is not

comfortablycurt

Keep in mind, that if you're wanting to try coax instead of optical, any 75 ohm coax cable will work. This includes composite(yellow) video cables, as well as subwoofer cables. The three are all interchangeable.

I take it you listen to music in multi-channel? If you're listening to it in stereo, you might try switching to some quality analog IC's. It'd make a big difference...

steveinaz

Blue Jeans cables' Belden Coax digital cable (1694A) is excellent AND inexpensive. It's also "true" 75ohm topology. It is what I use between my CEC CD-3300 and my Benchmark DAC. Because I have a passive pre, my system is very sensitive to cable changes; I found the Belden to be the most neutral coax I've tried, at least so far.

lakesailor

While cabling can make a difference; I don’t believe it will “warm” the sound to the degree that you are looking for. Changing CDP’s can certainly be a big step in this direction however that can be costly.

Adding a stand alone DAC can definitely work; from my experience with DAC’s nothing adds a more “analog” signature to the sound than using an older non-oversampling DAC.

I also know a few people who have added tube buffers and been fairly happy with the sound as well; however I have not tried that so I cannot say from experience. Good Luck.

mmadden28

BlueFox wrote: »

...I am using my 1999 Sony DVD player as a digital transport into a Benchmark Dac1. ... Using the Dac1 in this setup and switching between 2 channel SACD, and CD through the Dac1 you would be hard-pressed to tell the differance.

Just to clarify--you meant 2 channel SACD via analog outputs compared to the CD (redbook) via the DAC1, right?

BlueFox

mmadden28 wrote: »

Just to clarify--you meant 2 channel SACD via analog outputs compared to the CD (redbook) via the DAC1, right?

Good question, but not exactly. The setup consists of the Sony 9100ES DVD/SACD connected to a Sony 7100ES, used as a pre-amp, and onto a Sunfire TGA-5400. The 9100ES is connected to the 7100ES via a Sony digital link called Ilink. This allows the DSD stream to go straight to the 7100ES where it converts to analog before going to the Sunfire. Without Ilink, it would have to be 2 channel SACD analog due to SACD copy protection. In addition to avoiding SACD copy protection, Ilink, along with HATS (another technology), is suppossed to greatly reduce jitter between the sender and receiver.

Interestingly, what this means is the analog output from the Dac1 is actually being re-digitized to DSD at the 7100ES, and then back to analog to go to the Sunfire. Even with the extra conversion occuring, the Dac1 analog output sounds equal to the 2 channel SACD DSD stream. And that is with inexpensive analog interconnects between the Dac1 and the 7100ES.

Early B.

Get a good CDP, not a DAC. For the price of a good DAC, you can buy a nice CDP. If you buy a DAC, the upgrade bug will bite you and you'll want a better transport.

Ern Dog

I also started out with using an Onkyo DVD player as my music souce. I found an immediate improvement upgrading to a nice dedicated cdp with a good internal dac. I would start there first. A tube cdp would also help mellow out the harshness and will reduce the digital glare.

BlueFox

Early B. wrote: »

Get a good CDP, not a DAC. For the price of a good DAC, you can buy a nice CDP. If you buy a DAC, the upgrade bug will bite you and you'll want a better transport.

The problem is if the DAC and the CD player cost the same the odds are the DAC will sound better since all its engineering cost is dedicated to turning digital into analog. On the other hand, the CD player has the cost of its transport, drawer, motor, etc. that is not included in the price of the DAC.

Coincidentally, the March 2009 issue of Stereophile arrived today, and it has a review (page 21) of the $400 DacMagic by Cambridge Audio. The reviewer used a 15 year old Marantz CD63 as the transport, and said the result was basically equal to a Cambridge Audio 840C or Cary Audio CDP1. Not bad for $400.

SEH

BlueFox wrote: »

Interestingly, what this means is the analog output from the Dac1 is actually being re-digitized to DSD

I think you mean PCM. DSD encoders in consumer electronics are rare to nonexistent. Why are you re-digitizing the output from your Dac1?

at the 7100ES, and then back to analog to go to the Sunfire. Even with the extra conversion occuring, the Dac1 analog output sounds equal to the 2 channel SACD DSD stream.

Yeah, in the end you're using the same DAC either way (the one in the 7100).

BlueFox

SEH wrote: »

I think you mean PCM. DSD encoders in consumer electronics are rare to nonexistent. Why are you re-digitizing the output from your Dac1?).

The Sony 7100ES is the last of the Sony digital amp designs, and was their top of the line at the time. I might have a White Paper around (it might have been on another PC that died) that explains the digital technology. I believe it said that all incoming analog was converted to DSD for processing and amplification, and then converted to analog for output. But, my memory has been known to mix things up, so it might be PCM.

SEH wrote: »

Yeah, in the end you're using the same DAC either way (the one in the 7100).

True, but the output quality is going to be directly proportional to the input signal.

Early B.

BlueFox wrote: »

The problem is if the DAC and the CD player cost the same the odds are the DAC will sound better since all its engineering cost is dedicated to turning digital into analog. On the other hand, the CD player has the cost of its transport, drawer, motor, etc. that is not included in the price of the DAC.

Coincidentally, the March 2009 issue of Stereophile arrived today, and it has a review (page 21) of the $400 DacMagic by Cambridge Audio. The reviewer used a 15 year old Marantz CD63 as the transport, and said the result was basically equal to a Cambridge Audio 840C or Cary Audio CDP1. Not bad for $400.

The Stereophile article seems to substantiate the fact that one can use an old or "cheap" transport and nevertheless achieve a very good outcome. In others words, the DAC is primarily what makes the CDP sound like it does, not the transport. The problem with buying DACs is that it's more crap in the chain which could be more destructive than adding a better DAC. Now you gotta account for an addtional cable, power cord, power supply, etc. IMO, the key to good sound is to keep it simple, and buying a CDP is simple.

heiney9

Early B. wrote: »

In others words, the DAC is primarily what makes the CDP sound like it does, not the transport. The problem with buying DACs is that it's more crap in the chain which could be more destructive than adding a better DAC. Now you gotta account for an addtional cable, power cord, power supply, etc. IMO, the key to good sound is to keep it simple, and buying a CDP is simple.

Couldn't disagree more. When you start hitting high to very high dollar players.....then yes. But, mid level players, let's say just for reference $1500 and less........then no. There are always exceptions and certainly preferences such as a tube cdp, etc, may be more desirable. But in general one needs to spend a lot more $$$ on a cdp when there are many, many stand alone DAC's whose performance matches and in most cases exceeds the mid-level players for a lot less money invested.

As always YMMV

H9

steveinaz

Another often missed benefit of an external DAC, you can connect other devices and take advantage of a (likely) much improved analog section of the DAC. I run my HD Receiver, BluRay, and CD transport all to my DAC. All 3 benefit substantially.

hearingimpared

I went the DAC route once and found that a good CDP like the Raysonic CD168 kicks the crap out of the transport/DAC combo. BTW I used a Timbre DAC which is no slouch so I advise a good CDP.

hearingimpared

steveinaz wrote: »

Another often missed benefit of an external DAC, you can connect other devices and take advantage of a (likely) much improved analog section of the DAC. I run my HD Receiver, BluRay, and CD transport all to my DAC. All 3 benefit substantially.

Where have you been Bro?

steveinaz

Been crazy busy at work....

Early B.

hearingimpared wrote: »

I went the DAC route once and found that a good CDP like the Raysonic CD168 kicks the crap out of the transport/DAC combo. BTW I used a Timbre DAC which is no slouch so I advise a good CDP.

Yep.

I had someone bring over their prized Paradisea DAC to compare to my CDP which cost the same (this was before my CDP was modded). Couldn't tell the difference between the two.

Like everything else in audio, I think the problem is that $500 CDPs that sound as good as $1,500 CDPs, so it's tough to generalize. Neverthless, you gotta make a decision. If I were considering the separates route, I'd consider separating something else in the chain (i.e., monoblocks vs. single chassis or separate subs vs. full-range floorstanders) before I'd separate the transport from the DAC (unless, of course, you're using your DAC like steveinaz).

heiney9

You hit the nail on the head EB, it's tough to generalize. I have had good success with seperate Dac's and I use mine as Steve does for mutiple digital sources. Some things have synergy together and some things don't.

H9

Erik Tracy

Thanks for the feedback guys - I really appreciate the 'thought space' that folks have taken the time to share.

Looks like I've got some thinking to do and then be decisive and do something....or nothing....:p

I've got other upgrades in the works to, so my grand scheme needs to be planned out.

My system is in my signature - so if folks would like to share any CDP recommendations, I'd appreciate those as well.

I'm eyeing audiogon for good deals on a Rotel, Jolida, or Rega.

Based on some comments in the "What CDP" thread - sounds like Cambrigde would be too 'analytic' (eg 'bright'?) for what I'm looking for.

Thanks!
Erik
==============================
HDTV: Pan TH-50PZ77U
AVR: Yamaha RX-V1800 (HDMI pass thru)
Power amp: Carver M-1.0t mkII modified
Fronts: Polk RTiA3s (driven by Carver)
Rears: Polk RTi4s (driven by Yam)
Center: Polk CSi3
Sub: Epik Valor
Bluray: PS3
DVD: Sony DVP-NS300
Vinyl: Sony PS-X55, Grado Z1+
Headphones: Sennheiser HD-580
Cable: SA8300HDC (HDMI pass thru)
Power Conditioner: Audio Power Industries PowerWedge I

hearingimpared

Early B. wrote: »

Yep.

I had someone bring over their prized Paradisea DAC to compare to my CDP which cost the same (this was before my CDP was modded). Couldn't tell the difference between the two.

Like everything else in audio, I think the problem is that $500 CDPs that sound as good as $1,500 CDPs, so it's tough to generalize. Neverthless, you gotta make a decision. If I were considering the separates route, I'd consider separating something else in the chain (i.e., monoblocks vs. single chassis or separate subs vs. full-range floorstanders) before I'd separate the transport from the DAC (unless, of course, you're using your DAC like steveinaz).

^^^True dat ^^^

lakesailor

Bottom line is that you can get a Cambridge DAC Magic for $ 400 and all kinds of former $ 1K-$3K DAC’s used for even less than the $ 400 Cambridge. This is the cheapest way to massively improve you sound on the budget; unless you already happen to have a very good CDP in which case the subject is mute.

The other advantage to a stand alone DAC is that you can use them with a squeezebox or a Wadia I transport with your Ipod and also get a huge upgrade in sound for all of your FLAC and Lossless files.

Phil Dawson

You might check out the deals on the Lexicon rt-20 universal player. The CD playback section sounds fantastic. They have been discontinued by the factory but are still out there new and used. The original list was $5000 but can be had for between $700 and $1000. These are very warm sounding ALMOST as good as vinyl.
Good luck, Phil

SRA-SDS Front
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TNRabbit

I use a Carver SD/A-360 into a Benchmark DAC-1 via are REAL glass TOSLINK cable (search glass TOSLINK on amazon.com) and then analog ICs into my Sunfire TG-IV. I think the combo sounds fantastic. I mainly went with this because I also wanted a headphone amp & the DAC-1 will drive two pair with ease. I use a Sony multi-disk player for SACD/DVD-A right now but I'll be getting an Oppo back from on loan to a friend soon & plan to use that for SACD. The Oppo is a helluva deal for the $$ (I spent $100 on woot.com), you'd have to spend a Sh!tload more to get better. You've got several options available. To get a really good CDP that will beat either of the combos I use, you'll be spending a good bit of cash...

ben62670

OK flame suit is on. I like DAC's. You can have multiple sources, and keep you DAC. I run my DVD, CDP, and puter through my DAC. Sources die. DAC's tend to be without issues. I would rather sink my coin into a good DAC than into a source. A tube buffer in the circuit is on my list so I can have SS or tube.
Ben

Face

Or you can get a CDP with digital inputs, best of both worlds.

hearingimpared

Erik was asking about best analog for CD. I assumed he was talking strickly two channel. That is why I wrote post #19 and stand by it. I thnik the tubed Raysonic CD168 is a better buy both sonically and monitarily than a transport and DAC.