New to Polk...Biwiring worth it?

Pycroft

Hello all

I just purchased the following:
2 Monitor 30's
2 Montitor 50's
1 Monitor CS1

It's paired with an Onkyo SR606.

My question is...what are the benefits of biwiring the fronts? I'm new to home theatre and it looks confusing. It would be easier just to hook it up normal...is it worth it to go through with the extra process?

Thanks,

Pycroft

Pycroft

Also,

Can someone explain how to do it? Do I just hook a second set of wires (That would be for a 7.1 setup) and hook them into the extra plugs in my Monitor 30's?

Thanks.

pycroft

chemical

Pycroft wrote: »

Also,

Can someone explain how to do it? Do I just hook a second set of wires (That would be for a 7.1 setup) and hook them into the extra plugs in my Monitor 30's?

Thanks.

pycroft

can't help you with your question.....but i'm thinking about the same set up you have.....i was pretty impressed with a set of rm 6750's i heard......but was wondering about the mon 50's and 30's....how do they sound thru the onkyo?...complete novice here...totally new to the game

Systems

Pycroft wrote: »

Hello all

Hello and welcome.

My question is...what are the benefits of biwiring the fronts?

IMO there is no performance advantage.

Pycroft wrote: »

Also,

Can someone explain how to do it? Do I just hook a second set of wires and hook them into the extra plugs in my Monitor 30's?

Yes, you would remove the jumpers that join the 2 sets of binding posts then run a separate set of wires to each pair.

Montoya

I wonder what one of the engineers or designers of Polk would say on this topic is there a benefit of bi-wiring? Or bi-amping for that matter I have heard different opinions but always from cosumers and not an actual speaker designer or engineer.

Pycroft

Thanks for the reply's so far. I guess I will wait to hear from the Polk tech's. As for the monitor 30's and 50's, I think the setup sounds awesome through the Onkyo. I plan on upgrading with a subwoofer, but not sure when I can do that.

Thanks,

pycroft

JohnnyG83

I actually spoke with a Polk tech rep and he recommended for me to bi-wire my RTi A1's. Is it making a difference? I have no idea because I bought my speaker cable bi-wired at the speaker end and this is the only way I have experience with my speakers. But hey, they do sound great

Montoya wrote: »

I wonder what one of the engineers or designers of Polk would say on this topic is there a benefit of bi-wiring? Or bi-amping for that matter I have heard different opinions but always from cosumers and not an actual speaker designer or engineer.

Pycroft

If I may ask another question on top of my original.

I believe all the speakers I have listed above are max 125 Watts power. My Onkyo SR606 is 90 Watts per channel. Does that mean I technically should be able to turn the receiver up the entire way without damaging the speakers? (Of course I won't do this, but I'm not sure what the technical rules are).

Thanks,

Pycroft

dorokusai

I'd keep it simple for now and tweak later.

dorokusai

Pycroft wrote: »

If I may ask another question on top of my original.

I believe all the speakers I have listed above are max 125 Watts power. My Onkyo SR606 is 90 Watts per channel. Does that mean I technically should be able to turn the receiver up the entire way without damaging the speakers? (Of course I won't do this, but I'm not sure what the technical rules are).

Thanks,

Pycroft

Nope. It should be plenty loud enough before you actually start pegging 90wpc.

MarvC

I have the Onkyo SR606 fantastic receiver I bi-amped the fronts A3's. Look at the polk docs for the receiver if you are not running surround sound rear speakers you can use these to bi-amp the fronts.
Remove the jumpers from the speakers first. The front speakers left and right channels are the tweeter terminals connect these to the lower terminals on the speaker.
The surround sound left and right channels connect to the upper speaker terminals those being the woofer of the speaker.
Reference Page 17 of the receiver manual this will describe the above.
Be sure and go to speaker setup and change from Normal to Bi-amp reference page 42 for this.
It does seem to make a difference in quality of sound on my Onkyo. Give it a try you can always restore the settings.

chemical

Pycroft wrote: »

Thanks for the reply's so far. I guess I will wait to hear from the Polk tech's. As for the monitor 30's and 50's, I think the setup sounds awesome through the Onkyo. I plan on upgrading with a subwoofer, but not sure when I can do that.

Thanks,

pycroft

pycroft thanks for your reply

Pycroft

I guess I'll just stick to normal wiring then...especially since I think they sound great as is. Thanks for the help.

comfortablycurt

Most people who have tried bi-wiring with their AVR's back channels have reported very minimal if any gains at all. A lot of people have reported that it wasn't even worth the cost of the extra speaker wire. Give it a try, and if it sounds better to you, go with it. As said though, the difference is going to be minimal at best.

I believe all the speakers I have listed above are max 125 Watts power. My Onkyo SR606 is 90 Watts per channel. Does that mean I technically should be able to turn the receiver up the entire way without damaging the speakers? (Of course I won't do this, but I'm not sure what the technical rules are).

I have a 606 myself, and it's a great receiver. It's not really pushing 90 watts per channel though. It's real world power rating with all channels driven is more in the neighborhood of 40-45 watts. In reality though, you're less likely to damage your speakers while cranking them up with a more powerful amp, than with a lesser powerful amp.

When speakers are being driven with less power(i.e. an AVR) it causes the speakers to work much harder to play at the same volume...which in turn can damage them. You're really less likely to damage the speakers with an external amp that puts out 120 good clean watts per channel.

External amplification isn't necessarily about having more power, but having better power.

So I wouldn't recommend cranking them up all the way. You said you didn't plan to anyway though...which is always a good move. Those volume knobs are never really meant to go all the way up...

Pycroft

For my information...what volume setting do you max out at since you have the same Receiver? I typically have it at 50-55 for movies. Does that seem too high?

Pycroft

comfortablycurt

Well, a lot of it depends on the speakers you're using. My typical listening level is usually around 45-55 though. I have my max volume set to 60. It goes up to 80...but I've never even had it past 60.

Vette C6.r

I have also bi-wired both of my Rt12's and my LSI 15's.

Didn't notice that much difference. Hey it's a cheap thing to do that is why I gave it a shot.

I do need to listen a bit more to give a better opinion.

danger boy

pycroft wrote: »

is it worth it to go through with the extra process?
Thanks,

pycroft

No!!!

click this link http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=986648&postcount=6

MLZ

After reading a few discussions on bi-wiring, I went to Blue Jeans Cable and got some Canare 4S11 wire and I had some extra bananas around, so I biwired from my Onkyo A-9555 to my RTi8's. I heard NO improvement, but the cost was minimal since I wanted new and "better" speaker cables than zip cord and I think the fat (3/8 inch) speaker wires look pretty cool covered with Tech Flex. So I invested around $30 - $40 in cosmetics and I did no harm to my system

Then I looked at the schematic and saw that bi-wiring is just moving the location of the jumper from your speaker binding posts to your amp's binding posts. DUH!

MLZ

Montoya wrote: »

I wonder what one of the engineers or designers of Polk would say on this topic is there a benefit of bi-wiring? Or bi-amping for that matter I have heard different opinions but always from cosumers and not an actual speaker designer or engineer.

From Polk's FAQ: Why are there two sets of terminals on my speakers?
http://www.polkaudio.com/education/showanswer.php?question_num=53

Bi-wiring:
In bi-wiring, one cable pair delivers high frequency information to the tweeter and a separate wire pair delivers low-frequency signal to the driver from the same amplifier. According to one theory, by providing each "half" of the signal a separate wire path, interference effects within the wire are reduced producing better sound. We're not in a position to explain in-depth, or for that matter prove or disprove this or any other theory. What we can do is tell you that in many systems, bi-wiring does indeed make an audible and worthwhile difference. The better the speakers and electronics you have and the more discerning a listener you are, the more likely bi-wiring will make a difference you will appreciate. I was shocked by the difference bi-wiring made with LSi9s in my listening room. The midrange "opened up," becoming clearer and more detailed with improved three-dimensional imaging. Voices and other midrange sounds were more "out-of-the-box" than with the single wire hookup. To bi-wire you need four lengths of speaker wire. For convenience and economy, most cable manufacturers offer bi-wire cable wherein two sets of cable are combined into one jacket. If you want to use the speaker cables you have now, just add a second set of the same cable. Be sure to remove the flat metal jumper cable between the terminal sets. Most receiver and amplifier speaker terminals allow you to connect two sets of wires as illustrated here. If that isn't possible with your equipment, you can use the "A" and "B" terminals and set the receiver's output to "A+B." It is all the same electrically but it is better to leave the "B" set of terminals free for connecting remote speakers. If you have lots of time on your hands and love to experiment, try mixing different types of wire for high and low frequency duties. Always use heavy gauge cable for the low frequency path. Try smaller gauge esoteric cable for the high frequency path. With a little experimentation you'll find a combination of wires that works best for your system.

Bi-amping:
True bi-amplifying involves using an outboard electronic crossover, multiple amplifiers and removal of the internal passive crossover of the speaker. We're not going to tell you how to do all that because it is expensive, entails a lot of work and unless you REALLY know what you're doing, you may get worse sound than you started with. Most folks drop the idea right about now in the explanation process. But a few brave souls try half-baked bi-amping where two stereo amplifiers are used to drive one pair of speakers: one amp drives the low frequency section of the speaker and another drives the high frequency section and the passive crossover remains intact as illustrated. The benefits of bi-amping compared to bi-wiring are subtle, but like choosing wires you can try different combinations of amplifiers to tailor the sound. For example, many audiophiles prefer the smoothness and silkiness of tube amplifiers for high frequencies but feel that solid-state amps do a better job on delivering high current punch for woofers. By bi-amping you can get the best of both worlds. But if the gains of the two amplifiers are very different from one another, the tweeter will play at a level very different from that of the woofer and you will wind up with sound that is obviously inferior to single amplification. If you're going to try bi-amplifying, use power amplifiers with identical gain settings or variable gain controls. Bi-amplifying is not for the faint of heart or the casual audio enthusiast. Most important of all REMOVE THE FLAT METAL JUMPERS BETWEEN THE TWO SETS OF SPEAKER TERMINALS OR YOU WILL DAMAGE YOUR AMPLIFIERS!


Though, as I have said, with my ears I heard no improvement with my Onkyo A9555 bi-wired with Canare 4s11 to my RTi8's. The above FAQ is what led me to try bi-wiring and I did end up with better speaker cables for less than $20.00 from BlueJeans

john22614

I needed some new wire a couple years ago, so I got the biwire from blue jeans. Very good quality, inexpensive, flexible wire, easy to hook up but didn't notice any improvement. Oh well, it looks kind of cool. Properly amped, the 9's sound great either way.

Mike21

I have tried bi-wire and bi-amp with my Polk M50s. Unsurprisingly, no sound improvement.

treitz3

Bi-wiring is completely over-rated and IMO a worthless thing to do. Some disagree but I heard not one ounce of improvement with any speaker that I have tried it on. YMMV.

metal83

Pycroft wrote: »

Hello all

I just purchased the following:
2 Monitor 30's
2 Montitor 50's
1 Monitor CS1

It's paired with an Onkyo SR606.

My question is...what are the benefits of biwiring the fronts? I'm new to home theatre and it looks confusing. It would be easier just to hook it up normal...is it worth it to go through with the extra process?

Thanks,

Pycroft

You should definitely go over to AVS forum and ask this question!
Watch those guys get there panties all twisted. haha

$mitty

Wouldn't bi-amping with my Yamaha 663 actually send more watts to my front speakers b/c it would actually be sending the power out of multiple speaker channels (front L&R and rear surround L&R) as opposed to bi-wiring, which is only sending power from the front L&R?

Over at the AVS forum someone was telling me that there's really no benefit in bi-wiring, but bi-amping on the other hand can be helpful if done correctly. I'm not doing anything too elaborate like using 2 receivers. Like I said, my Yamaha 663 has the capability to bi-amp with the rear surround channels since I only have a 5.1 set up and those 2 outputs are open at the moment. Do you think that would give me a little more wattage to my fronts?

treitz3

That depends on the design of the AVR. Not all of them are built the same. With some it would be a definite advantage. Others? A severe disadvantage. How the settings are within the AVR can also have the same effect.

$mitty

treitz3 wrote: »

That depends on the design of the AVR. Not all of them are built the same. With some it would be a definite advantage. Others? A severe disadvantage. How the settings are within the AVR can also have the same effect.

On the back of my AVR the label on the rear surround outputs actually says rear surround/bi-amp and there is an option when setting it up when running a 5.1 system to change the rear surround output to bi-amp for the front speakers. All of this makes me think I might get better performance out of my fronts utilizing the bi-amp capabilities of my AVR. I guess I just need to do it and see what happens!

treitz3

If the amp is built to bi-amp specifically, then most likely yes. The sound would improve but......and yes, there is a but.......if the current going to the original main amp(s) is halved then you may not notice any benefit. Again, it all boils down to the circuit design.

There is no harm in trying, just make sure to remove the binding straps on the speakers and make sure the settings on the AVR are correct for bi-amping. I would suggest defeating all tone controls [or setting them all flat] before and after bi-amping so you can get a better feel as to whether or not there is an improvement. Have fun!

solarrdadd

I'm sure this has been done before but, like all things it's getting done again! Over the last year I have been reading in the various forums about bi-wiring speakers (please, I am NOT talking about bi-amping!) and it seems that most people are against it. I am trying to get the best out of what I have and I liked the idea of bi-wiring my front 3 channels. After lots of research and emails with vendors I went with Calabrine.com and used their "Quadio Ultra Bi-Wire Pair Speaker Cables" 1pair for the front l & r and a single cable for the center all 3m long. I was using monster ultra 1000 THX series cable before this and they were well made beefy cables and I loved them. Well guess what, once I installed the new bi-wire cables and fired the system up I began to hear things in sound effects and music that I didn't hear before,. I am talking about blu-ray disc that i have owned and listened to many times. I could hear more things from the high freq's and the low freq's were more tight and focused. here is some of the reference materials I used:

2008 DTS HD Demo disc given out at CES 2008: selection "Chieli Minnucci/Daybreak" DTS-MA-HD 96/24. 5.1

Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds: live at Radio City DTHD 96/24 5.1 or
48/24 PCM Stereo

Sunshine DTS-MA-HD 5.1

Master & Commander DTS-MA-HD 5.1

The Punisher War Zone DTS-MA-HD 7.1

Baraka DTS-MA-HD 96/24

AKIRA DTHD 192/24

Again, I own all of these and the CES demo disc selection listed i'm surprised i haven't worn that thing out as much as I listen to it. I'd like to hear from the folks who are for it because they either believe in it's potential or they have set it up and experienced it like I have. of course I want to hear from those who think it was a waste of time and money. I am also curious if the folks who are against it have ever done the taste test of listening to something with normal wiring and then the same thing with the only change being in the cables, nothing else. I'm here to tell you that it was one of the best things I have done for my system in years. responses, Please & Thank You. Oh yeah, I updated my galler to relect this!

klove2

I bi amp my monitor 60s using the surround rear connections. I did notice improvement especially with old analog sources such as cassette and Vhs tapes. These sources seem to get new life, and there sound became more alive after i bi-amp the speakers.

rubin

All the experts say bi-wiring has no advantage bi-amping has some benefits