Judging Hi-Fi
zingo
Posts: 11,258
Why listening to the tune is a fool-proof method of evaluating hi-fi components
The A/B demonstration has long been the standard method of evaluation of hi-fi components. You listen to one component, then listen to a second component, and buy the one that sounds best. This sounds simple enough; but how do you determine which component sounds the best? Some people listen for distortion, or even break the sound down into component parts and evaluate the high-end, mid-range and low-end. Others look (or listen) for sound stage, or depth. Many just give up on it all and rely on the reviews and specifications sheets. Our approach has always been to "listen to the tune". While this sounds almost too simplistic to be useful, a careful examination of this technique will reveal that, not only is it surprisingly accurate, it is based on a very solid foundation.
Problem #1: Distortion
How many times have you heard someone comment about hearing distortion from a hi-fi system? The truth is most people do not fully understand the concept of distortion. You do not hear distortion! You may very well hear a bad sound coming out of a hi-fi. However, the distortion is simply the difference between the good signal that went in at the front-end of the system and the bad sound that is coming out at the speaker end. Since you are rarely in a position to know exactly what was on the record, you can not be sure how the signal has been changed. Thus it is very risky to try to evaluate a hi-fi by trying to identify distortions.
Scientific distortion measurements can be made. However, these are usually based on tests using very simple signals and, like most specifications, are not a good indication of the performance a component will deliver when called upon to handle a complex musical signal. Measurements are also very limited in their scope. They only measure certain specific types of distortion. In reality, anything that changes the musical signal is a type of distortion whether anyone has figured out a way to measure it or not.
There is only one thing you need to remember about distortion and its effect on the musical signal:
A musical signal, at any given instant, can be described by an amplitude (loudness) and a frequency (pitch). Thus, distortion, by definition, always changes either an amplitude or a frequency or both. The significance of this will become clear very soon.
Problem #2: More Distortion
Problem number two is really just more of problem number one (distortion). We have just pointed out that it is very difficult to evaluate the distortion of a component because you have very little information about the original signal. This same limitation haunts other methods of evaluation as well. Breaking the signal down into the component parts; i.e., highs, mids, and lows, rarely works because you end up making judgments based on quantity rather than quality. You may very well end up picking the system that gives you the most bass. It's important to remember, you do not know "how much" bass was on the CD/record.
A very attractive way to evaluate a hi-fi is to sit back, close your eyes, relax and picture the performers in your mind. You can almost feel them there in the room. You could actually point to them. As attractive as this scenario may seem, it suffers from the very same limitations as the other methods. You do not actually know where that particular performer was standing when the recording was made. In fact, in many studio recordings, the "position" of a performer was simply determined by the position of a pan pot or balance control on a recording console! In truth, do you really care where he was standing? Most people would rather listen to a good pianist in the next room than a bad piano player eight feet in front of them and 24.7 inches to the left. Don't get us wrong. The "image" can be a very attractive aspect of a hi-fi system's performance. However, it is only of concern after you have sorted out the musical aspects of the system.
The Grand Solution
Now that we have spent the better part of a page explaining the limitations in hi-fi evaluations, we feel compelled to offer a solution. If we are to make an evaluation based on listening to music, we are forced to ask ourselves, "What is on the CD/record?" The truth is, we know very little about the content of the record. We don't know how much bass there is, or where the vocalist is standing, or how loud that little tinkle of the triangle should be (you remember -- the one, half way through the second cut on side
. In fact, we know almost nothing about the original signal on that record. Whether we like it or not, this forces us into making assumptions. In our view there is only one set of assumptions that you can fairly make. There are professional musicians on that CD/record. They must be good or they wouldn't be making an album. Ergo, there is music on that album. (The validity of our second assumption could be questioned in some cases.)
If you ask yourself musical questions when evaluating hi-fi components, you have a much better chance of getting things right. Rather than evaluating the sound of the hi-fi, evaluate the performance of the musicians. Anything a hi-fi does to degrade the sound must lower the perceived quality of the musical performance. You can ask questions like, "Is there emotion in the vocalist's voice?" "Are they having a good time, or are they just playing because they are getting paid for it?" This method of evaluation works even though you do not know how good the original performance was! A bad hi-fi can degrade the musical performance. However, a good hi-fi cannot improve upon the original signal on the CD/record (it can only reproduce it as faithfully as possible).
Thus the simple fact that the performance sounds more musical on system A than it does on system B, gives a clear indication of the minimum level of musical quality present on the CD/record. While we can not know if system A is recovering all the information on the CD/record, we certainly know that system B is not.
Enter the Tune
Our favorite method of evaluating the musical performance, and thus the performance of the hi-fi, is simply listening to the tune. Many people immediately dismiss this as being obviously too simplistic to provide meaningful results. But, in actual practice, this is an all-encompassing technique that more clearly brings out differences in hi-fi systems than any other method of evaluation we have ever used. The music on a CD/record consists of a signal that, at any instant, can be described with two parameters, frequency and amplitude (or pitch and loudness, if you prefer).
Any type of distortion, whether or not we can measure it or understand it, will change either a frequency or an amplitude or both.
That is, by definition, what distortion does. And it rarely does this in a linear manner. That is, some frequencies or amplitudes are changed more than others. These changes in frequency and amplitude will change the pitch relations in the music and thus alter the tune. For example: Since the perceived pitch of a note consists of the sum of its fundamental plus its harmonics, a distortion that adds extra harmonics will shift the pitch of that note up slightly. Likewise, a distortion that results in the rolling-off of higher frequencies (thus reducing the amplitude of some harmonics) can lower the perceived pitch.
Our musical scale is composed of a series of fixed steps. Each step is the same size. Our brain has an uncanny ability to follow those steps and to determine when errors have been made. It is much like climbing a set of stairs. As long as all the steps are the same you can comfortably walk up the steps, come down the steps, run up, run down, take two steps at a time, even do it in the dark. However, change the size of just one step and you are likely to fall on your face.
Following the tune is much the same. If you try to follow along with the tune you will find that, on a good hi-fi system, the tune will seem to make more sense. The steps will be more regular. The notes that one instrument is playing will have some relationship to the notes that another instrument produces. You will even frequently know what note is coming next. In the end, the better the system the less damage it does to the pitch relationships and the easier it is to follow the tune. And, since any type of distortion, regardless of its source, must alter the tune, this method is a comprehensive test of a hi-fi system's musical performance.
The A/B demonstration has long been the standard method of evaluation of hi-fi components. You listen to one component, then listen to a second component, and buy the one that sounds best. This sounds simple enough; but how do you determine which component sounds the best? Some people listen for distortion, or even break the sound down into component parts and evaluate the high-end, mid-range and low-end. Others look (or listen) for sound stage, or depth. Many just give up on it all and rely on the reviews and specifications sheets. Our approach has always been to "listen to the tune". While this sounds almost too simplistic to be useful, a careful examination of this technique will reveal that, not only is it surprisingly accurate, it is based on a very solid foundation.
Problem #1: Distortion
How many times have you heard someone comment about hearing distortion from a hi-fi system? The truth is most people do not fully understand the concept of distortion. You do not hear distortion! You may very well hear a bad sound coming out of a hi-fi. However, the distortion is simply the difference between the good signal that went in at the front-end of the system and the bad sound that is coming out at the speaker end. Since you are rarely in a position to know exactly what was on the record, you can not be sure how the signal has been changed. Thus it is very risky to try to evaluate a hi-fi by trying to identify distortions.
Scientific distortion measurements can be made. However, these are usually based on tests using very simple signals and, like most specifications, are not a good indication of the performance a component will deliver when called upon to handle a complex musical signal. Measurements are also very limited in their scope. They only measure certain specific types of distortion. In reality, anything that changes the musical signal is a type of distortion whether anyone has figured out a way to measure it or not.
There is only one thing you need to remember about distortion and its effect on the musical signal:
A musical signal, at any given instant, can be described by an amplitude (loudness) and a frequency (pitch). Thus, distortion, by definition, always changes either an amplitude or a frequency or both. The significance of this will become clear very soon.
Problem #2: More Distortion
Problem number two is really just more of problem number one (distortion). We have just pointed out that it is very difficult to evaluate the distortion of a component because you have very little information about the original signal. This same limitation haunts other methods of evaluation as well. Breaking the signal down into the component parts; i.e., highs, mids, and lows, rarely works because you end up making judgments based on quantity rather than quality. You may very well end up picking the system that gives you the most bass. It's important to remember, you do not know "how much" bass was on the CD/record.
A very attractive way to evaluate a hi-fi is to sit back, close your eyes, relax and picture the performers in your mind. You can almost feel them there in the room. You could actually point to them. As attractive as this scenario may seem, it suffers from the very same limitations as the other methods. You do not actually know where that particular performer was standing when the recording was made. In fact, in many studio recordings, the "position" of a performer was simply determined by the position of a pan pot or balance control on a recording console! In truth, do you really care where he was standing? Most people would rather listen to a good pianist in the next room than a bad piano player eight feet in front of them and 24.7 inches to the left. Don't get us wrong. The "image" can be a very attractive aspect of a hi-fi system's performance. However, it is only of concern after you have sorted out the musical aspects of the system.
The Grand Solution
Now that we have spent the better part of a page explaining the limitations in hi-fi evaluations, we feel compelled to offer a solution. If we are to make an evaluation based on listening to music, we are forced to ask ourselves, "What is on the CD/record?" The truth is, we know very little about the content of the record. We don't know how much bass there is, or where the vocalist is standing, or how loud that little tinkle of the triangle should be (you remember -- the one, half way through the second cut on side
. In fact, we know almost nothing about the original signal on that record. Whether we like it or not, this forces us into making assumptions. In our view there is only one set of assumptions that you can fairly make. There are professional musicians on that CD/record. They must be good or they wouldn't be making an album. Ergo, there is music on that album. (The validity of our second assumption could be questioned in some cases.)If you ask yourself musical questions when evaluating hi-fi components, you have a much better chance of getting things right. Rather than evaluating the sound of the hi-fi, evaluate the performance of the musicians. Anything a hi-fi does to degrade the sound must lower the perceived quality of the musical performance. You can ask questions like, "Is there emotion in the vocalist's voice?" "Are they having a good time, or are they just playing because they are getting paid for it?" This method of evaluation works even though you do not know how good the original performance was! A bad hi-fi can degrade the musical performance. However, a good hi-fi cannot improve upon the original signal on the CD/record (it can only reproduce it as faithfully as possible).
Thus the simple fact that the performance sounds more musical on system A than it does on system B, gives a clear indication of the minimum level of musical quality present on the CD/record. While we can not know if system A is recovering all the information on the CD/record, we certainly know that system B is not.
Enter the Tune
Our favorite method of evaluating the musical performance, and thus the performance of the hi-fi, is simply listening to the tune. Many people immediately dismiss this as being obviously too simplistic to provide meaningful results. But, in actual practice, this is an all-encompassing technique that more clearly brings out differences in hi-fi systems than any other method of evaluation we have ever used. The music on a CD/record consists of a signal that, at any instant, can be described with two parameters, frequency and amplitude (or pitch and loudness, if you prefer).
Any type of distortion, whether or not we can measure it or understand it, will change either a frequency or an amplitude or both.
That is, by definition, what distortion does. And it rarely does this in a linear manner. That is, some frequencies or amplitudes are changed more than others. These changes in frequency and amplitude will change the pitch relations in the music and thus alter the tune. For example: Since the perceived pitch of a note consists of the sum of its fundamental plus its harmonics, a distortion that adds extra harmonics will shift the pitch of that note up slightly. Likewise, a distortion that results in the rolling-off of higher frequencies (thus reducing the amplitude of some harmonics) can lower the perceived pitch.
Our musical scale is composed of a series of fixed steps. Each step is the same size. Our brain has an uncanny ability to follow those steps and to determine when errors have been made. It is much like climbing a set of stairs. As long as all the steps are the same you can comfortably walk up the steps, come down the steps, run up, run down, take two steps at a time, even do it in the dark. However, change the size of just one step and you are likely to fall on your face.
Following the tune is much the same. If you try to follow along with the tune you will find that, on a good hi-fi system, the tune will seem to make more sense. The steps will be more regular. The notes that one instrument is playing will have some relationship to the notes that another instrument produces. You will even frequently know what note is coming next. In the end, the better the system the less damage it does to the pitch relationships and the easier it is to follow the tune. And, since any type of distortion, regardless of its source, must alter the tune, this method is a comprehensive test of a hi-fi system's musical performance.
Post edited by zingo on
Comments
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More Problems?
Some people, at first, have a little difficulty with this method of evaluation. After all, even a transistor radio plays a tune you can follow. A key factor here is the amount of work your brain must do to follow the tune. Your brain can, and does, correct for errors in the tune. Your brain can figure out what the tune was supposed to be. The worse the hi-fi, the harder your brain will have to work to allow you to follow the tune. This is the concept behind the dreaded "listening fatigue". If you should have any problems in detecting changes in the tune, don't worry about it. Just sit back, relax, and try again. You will eventually hear the difference. The remarkable thing is that once you do hear the difference you will find that it is much more apparent than you originally thought. The more you listen the easier this method will become. Eventually you will find that you have a listening test that is consistent, repeatable, and, best of all, a reliable indicator of the performance of any hi-fi component.
A Final Word on A/B Demos
The approach we suggest when doing an A/B comparison is to listen to component A, then listen to component B. If one sounds better, buy it. If they both sound the same, buy the least expensive. Anything else is folly. We have always said, "If it doesn't sound better, then it isn't better."
You will find it easier to compare components in an A/B situation if you play only a brief passage (as little as ten seconds and certainly no more than thirty seconds) on one component. Switch to the second component and play the same passage. By keeping the passages short, you will have the "tune" fresh in your mind and will be better able to judge the relative difficulties of following the tune on each component.
Whenever possible avoid the use of comparators or switching boxes. The extra connectors will degrade the signal of both components under test, frequently bringing the level of performance of both components down to that of the switch box, making any meaningful evaluation impossible. For similar reasons we strongly suggest that all component evaluations be done in a demonstration room that contains only one set of loudspeakers (not counting home theater). Additional speakers, even though not being used, will vibrate in sympathy with the original sound source. This added noise does make it more difficult to evaluate components. Not only does it make it harder to judge the tune, it tends to favor a component that is more aggressive sounding and unfairly penalizes a good component by masking some of the low-level, detailed information that it is capable of providing under normal conditions
I found this piece on Hawthorne Stereo's website and thought it was well written. -
True stuff, excellent post. Too many times people buy what they think they should buy; based on reviews, specs, hearsay, hype, praise, ect. While these things can point you in the right direction, it's still largely subjective opinion. Buy what sounds musically satisfying to you. This principal is what makes companies like Bose so successful. Their systems are satisfying---note, I didn't say accurate--only audio nerds like us want accuracy, the general public wants satisfying, and they don't want to hassle with researching all the ins and outs of hi-fi. This also explains tube equipments on-going popularity. Solid state has it all over tubes; specification wise, cost wise, and energy wise--yet people still want tubes. Why? cause they sound good.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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I would like to add the caveat after selecting A or B:
The final determination takes place in your own rigReview Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
Former Staff Member TONEAudio
2 Ch. System
Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3 -
I would like to add the caveat after selecting A or B:
The final determination takes place in your own rig
I agree whole-heartedly. Any good audio retailer or company will give you a month or two to make sure your new purchase does work well at home. -
It's a great article due to its simplicity. Of course, there are many problems with this approach and every other method for evaluating components. There are simply too many variables to consider when undertaking any type of audio component evaluation.
I have developed the best method for evaluating audio components -- buy it, bring it home, plug it in, and listen. If you absolutely love it within the first couple of days, keep it. If you don't or if you think there's something better out there for the same price, sell it or return it and try something different until you get tired of trading out components. Works for me.
HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
Great post zingo,
It certainly describes a lot of the frustration that I've encountered in the last couple of decades of auditioning equipment and listening?
Early B., I often find that even after a couple of days or even a week or more I sometimes get irritated by equipment that I originally liked, I start hearing highs that are too edgy, or the sound fades, becomes less distinct at lower volumes.
In addition, and perhaps I'm just crazy or neurotic. I have systems which actually sound different depending on the environmental conditions outside--and I don't mean Martin Logans that can be affected by such things as humidity, ionic charges and so on.
Anyone else?
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
I stopped reading after the first couple sentences.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Doro is the only post I read. Thanks for a one liner.Jolida Tube
Polk 11T, 7, 5, 5jr, 4
Standard equip not worth bragging about. -
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Cnh,
I know what you mean. My system seems to sound better sometimes and not quite as good at others, and this is playing the same source on the same settings with the same components, so that elimates those variables. I have often wondered wether this was a mental thing, or actually being caused by environmental factors. The scientist in me says it's environmental factors. The antagonist in me says it's all in my head. It's probably a combination of the two really. Who knows, I think it's time for a beer. :-) -
I stopped reading after the first couple sentences.
me too, some wild pics would of helped.
RT1 -
I stopped reading after the first couple sentences.
Same here.
I thought Hi Fi was judged by its price.
:D:p
Nick -
Doro =
Not quite...probably more like the same show but the yacht club member with the really big chin....CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Good read ..my problem is the more info I read the more confused I get at times....have settled on the "what sounds best to my ears and screw the reviews approach", have found advice here to be spot on about equipment.. and even at that what sounded great today sounds just ok a few weeks later......thanks for taking the time....Not quite...probably more like the same show but the yacht club member with the really big chin....
James Bottomtooth III that would be -
Here's another one for you from the same place. It's basic information, but it know I've overlooked it before:
Hi-Fi Hierarchy
Many people do not comprehend the very obvious logic of how to assemble a hi-fi or home theater system. That is, most people will actually start by looking at speakers first instead of the electronics or more importantly, the sources (CD players, turntables, etc...) when initially shopping for a new system. This is easy to understand, given each manufacturer's claims that the particular component that they produce is the most important in any system. Speaker manufacturers far outnumber all other manufacturers combined, so it is only natural that the hi-fi industry as a whole places the most emphasis on speakers. We think that is a serious mistake.
Hawthorne Stereo carries a broad range of products that cover the entire hi-fi and home theater chain from beginning to end. And while we would very much like to see a customer purchase a pair of "expensive, high-end" speakers, we would strongly discourage that person from doing so if the rest of that person's system does not provide a signal of adequate quality for the particular speaker. We are prepared to admit the obvious truth that a new loudspeaker can change the character of a hi-fi system. It is, nonetheless, unlikely to offer any real improvement to a system, unless the current speaker is already the weakest link in the system (which it rarely is).
The place to start anything is at the beginning, and the beginning of a hi-fi or home theater system is the source. That is, the CD player, the turntable, the tuner or the cassette deck is the start of the system. In a CD playback system, the source is the CD and the hi-fi components occur in the following hierarchy:
cd player or turntable > preamplifier > power amplifier > loudspeakers
If you do a poor job of getting information off the CD at the beginning of the system, it is impossible for any component further down the chain to improve upon that signal. It is not possible for an amplifier to improve upon the signal that is put into it. It is not even a matter of how good the amplifier is; it simply cannot improve the signal that is fed into it. The same is true of speakers. In fact, improving the speaker when there is a fault earlier in the system will only serve to more clearly reveal the fault. Once the CD player, the preamplifier and the power amplifier are optimized, it becomes possible to use a pair of budget loudspeakers at the end of such a system with extremely good results. Indeed, it will be impossible to surpass the result obtained with such a system than by using the best available speakers with a lesser CD player or an inferior amplifier. Only when all these components have been optimized does it make sense to use the best speaker available. If you think about this proposition for a moment, it is self-evident, logical, sensible, and obviously correct. Unfortunately, hi-fi magazines and uneducated retailers have for many years attributed most improvements to loudspeakers. They apparently believe that because the loudspeaker is where the music comes out, it must be the most important part of the hi-fi system.
We hope that this brief discussion of the hierarchy of a hi-fi system has provided some insight into the proper assembly of, or improvement to, a hi-fi system. It is still critical, however, that any change you plan to make in your system be carefully evaluated by actually listening to the component in question. Any competent dealer will have demonstration facilities which are sufficiently good to clearly and quickly demonstrate the hierarchy of a system and to allow the necessary comparisons to be made. Confusion will only arise if the dealer's facilities are inadequate (for example, if he has more than one pair of speakers in the room at one time; not counting home theater), or if some other fundamental error is being made. Your best safeguard against that is a basic understanding of the hierarchy of a hi-fi system and system set-up. Armed with this knowledge, you can quickly evaluate a dealer's understanding of the basics of hi-fi. If he doesn't understand the basics, that dealer isn't likely to be of much help when it comes time to make decisions concerning the improvement of your particular system. -
The author is dead-on about the hi-fi hierarchy.
"If you do a poor job of getting information off the CD at the beginning of the system, it is impossible for any component further down the chain to improve upon that signal."HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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I agree but here's a question. CDs have technical limitations in terms of sound quality. Can one therefore justify the purchase of a 5000 dollar CD player vs. a good quality 1K player! There is only so much you can do with sound processors, DACs and so on, no?
When I see a 10-15K player I have to roll my eyes.
Will I 'hear' any real difference?
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
The author is dead-on about the hi-fi hierarchy.
"If you do a poor job of getting information off the CD at the beginning of the system, it is impossible for any component further down the chain to improve upon that signal."
That's true, but knowing what speakers you're going to drive (if they're power hungry, considered bright, etc.) sure helps when you're putting together the rest of the system. If you follow the implied advice there to "start at the beginning" and then hear a set of speakers that knock your socks off (most likely with some other gear), you might realize that you made a lot of choices that aren't going to be suitable with those speakers. -
I agree but here's a question. CDs have technical limitations in terms of sound quality. Can one therefore justify the purchase of a 5000 dollar CD player vs. a good quality 1K player! There is only so much you can do with sound processors, DACs and so on, no?
When I see a 10-15K player I have to roll my eyes.
Will I 'hear' any real difference?
Price doesn't mean a damn thing in audio.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
That's true, but knowing what speakers you're going to drive (if they're power hungry, considered bright, etc.) sure helps when you're putting together the rest of the system. If you follow the implied advice there to "start at the beginning" and then hear a set of speakers that knock your socks off (most likely with some other gear), you might realize that you made a lot of choices that aren't going to be suitable with those speakers.
Get some good gear and you won't have to worry about it. Of course, synergy will always be a consideration regardless of what you buy, but it can be managed with knowledge and experience.HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50 LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub
"God grooves with tubes." -
JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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Yes.I agree but here's a question. CDs have technical limitations in terms of sound quality. Can one therefore justify the purchase of a 5000 dollar CD player vs. a good quality 1K player!
Wanna bet?There is only so much you can do with sound processors, DACs and so on, no?When I see a 10-15K player I have to roll my eyes.
Will I 'hear' any real difference?
How about after you listen to one, you report back.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Yes.
Wanna bet?
How about after you listen to one, you report back.
Hostile much?
Furthermore, I really think its about diminishing returns. Sure a $5,000 cd player might sound better than a $200 cd player, and maybe even a $500 cd player, but 25x better? 10x better?
And yes, I have listened to a half a million dollar stereo system (yes, that's $500,000.00 USD). Does it sound incredible, no questions asked. Is it worth the money; perhaps if you are looking for the absolute best in quality it is. That however is a subjective judgment, and I personally do not believe the exponential price curve justifies the linear progression of quality.
In the end it all comes down to what your willing to spend. If cost is no object, then rock on'. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy with playing CDs out of my LG BH200.
My two cents. -
How about you grow some alligator skin? Those comments aren't anywhere close to be hostile. :rolleyes:My two cents.
Would you like a refund?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
and might I add your own room.Especially so for speakers, as the rooms acoustic signature will have a huge influence on how they will sound.The final determination takes place in your own rigTesting
Testing
Testing -
The most flawed component in any system is your ears. Mine have degraded substantially over the last 25 years.
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Good point.
cd player>pre>amp>speakers>>>>>>42 year old ears.
Man am I hosed.Jolida Tube
Polk 11T, 7, 5, 5jr, 4
Standard equip not worth bragging about. -
How about you grow some alligator skin? Those comments aren't anywhere close to be hostile. :rolleyes:
Would you like a refund?
Sure.
