Attenuation of grill cloth?
barakus
Posts: 40
I bought a pair of Monitor 7Cs about six months ago which came with some non-original stands. The tilt on these stands is too severe, probably something like 25 degrees. So when I'm sitting in my normal listening position on the couch, the tweeters are obviously pointed over my head.
I've felt that perhaps the speakers -- which I have updated the tweeters in -- are a tiny bit dull sounding but just chalked it up to warm vintage sound and the tweeters not being pointed at my ears. However, I was playing around with them yesterday and tried A/B-ing the sound with the grills on and off. It could very well be a case of hearing what I want to hear, but it seemed that the sound was significantly brighter without the grills.
I spent the rest of the day listening without the grills, and they may be a bit too bright. Or I may be a bit too crazy.
So, opinions: grills on or off? Or doesn't make a significant difference?
I've felt that perhaps the speakers -- which I have updated the tweeters in -- are a tiny bit dull sounding but just chalked it up to warm vintage sound and the tweeters not being pointed at my ears. However, I was playing around with them yesterday and tried A/B-ing the sound with the grills on and off. It could very well be a case of hearing what I want to hear, but it seemed that the sound was significantly brighter without the grills.
I spent the rest of the day listening without the grills, and they may be a bit too bright. Or I may be a bit too crazy.
So, opinions: grills on or off? Or doesn't make a significant difference?
Post edited by barakus on
Comments
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The tilt is supposed to be 3 degrees.
There is a 10 dollar audiophile word for grill cloth, the cloth is said to be Transpondent or not, so the cloth can have some effect.
RT1 -
reeltrouble1 wrote: »The tilt is supposed to be 3 degrees.
There is a 10 dollar audiophile word for grill cloth, the cloth is said to be Transpondent or not, so the cloth can have some effect.
RT1
Can't seem to find that word in the dictionary. Do you have a link where it is described?
I've always heard the term "acoustically transparent" when referring to a grill that won't affect the sound on a speaker.____________________
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Pool: Atrium 60's/45's -
i don't think it's just the fabric, the frame can make a difference too. how the sound waves (difference on and off) interact with alot of other stuff like your positioning, room and furnishings and how and what you listen for will probably also make differences in what you'll notice from the change.
i don't know that it's the best place to start, but plugging a search string something like <<diffraction "front baffle" "sound waves" edge>> into google be a place to start anyway.
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So, opinions: grills on or off? Or doesn't make a significant difference?
Before you concern yourself with that matter, you need to get your speakers set up properly.
Anyway, grills on. They were taken in to account when designed, so 'nuff said.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Before you concern yourself with that matter, you need to get your speakers set up properly.
Anyway, grills on. They were taken in to account when designed, so 'nuff said.
Polk does design for grills on, although there are some other companies that don't when putting out a cheap set of speakers for the masses.
BillMy 2012 HT Room - http://www.avsforum.com/t/1416077/bsoko2-new-ht-june-2012 -
Polk does design for grills on, although there are some other companies that don't when putting out a cheap set of speakers for the masses.
Bill
+1 . Grills are for looks, not sound. However, it does affect the sound, so find what you like best and roll with it.
I also want to say that diffraction is not an issue with the grills on or off. This is a transmission issue, not one of diffraction. -
Can't seem to find that word in the dictionary. Do you have a link where it is described?
I've always heard the term "acoustically transparent" when referring to a grill that won't affect the sound on a speaker.
well here a link, not where I originally read about it, it was one of the audio mags if I remember right, but hey if Big Bob says it it's gotta be right............:eek:
http://www.bobvila.com/SmartBuys/Speaker_Cloth-p104988.html -
Thanks for the comments so far. The opinion that Polk designed the speakers to take the grills into account was what I was looking for without knowing how to ask for it. The grills do seem to have a pretty significant effect.
I know I have to fix my setup at some point if possible. For now I have wedged some DVD cases under the back of the stands I have to angle them down a little closer to spec. I'm now in a situation where they sound a little dull with the grills on and a little bright with the grills off.
I've always ignored the debates about speaker cables and power conditioners, secretly scoffing at those who believed these minor things could make a difference, but I would have scoffed at the idea that grill cloth could have a noticeable effect on the sound and here I am being proved wrong. -
-1. There are other opinions, go here for example.I also want to say that diffraction is not an issue with the grills on or off. This is a transmission issue, not one of diffraction.
Disclaimer: I note that I use Jim's felts and love what they do for my SDA 1Cs. I have no financial interest in his or any other product. -
I would point to the front baffle for diffraction anomalies before I'd worry about the grill cloth. I always wrap my rascals.
ShinAce - What are you talking about?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
So, opinions: grills on or off? Or doesn't make a significant difference?
both. i prefer grilles off, the image is sharper. however, if my speakers are placed near enough to side walls or other reflective objects that the image becomes unstable, grilles on can sometimes soften the edges and clean that up a bit if the problem wasn't too bad to begin with. i think this is one situation where the grille frames (not just cloth) can make a noticable difference. i have a hard time believing that a flimsy piece of cloth without the frame would stop the image from shifting as certain notes are hit or sustained. for me, the most obvious example of hearing frames (again, not just cloth) is when listening at near field. frames on with some tunes can cause the image to be unstable similar to reflections from the room and create problems with the soundstage extending toward the listening position. again, these types of differences are not just the softer edges that i'd expect from the grille cloth alone. i notice these differences with just lsi's extremely minimalist "anti-diffraction grilles". though, to be fair i often listen at positions much closer than i gather most others do.
anyway, here's a very basic explanation from polk:
http://www.polkaudio.com/education/tech_article.php?id=24
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I would point to the front baffle for diffraction anomalies before I'd worry about the grill cloth. I always wrap my rascals.
ShinAce - What are you talking about?
The same thing you're talking about.
Diffraction is when a wavelength is faced with a certain opening size. Ever wonder why a 12" woofer beams highs in a narrow cone? That is diffraction and has nothing to do with the grille.
Transmission is how sound gets from one place to another. You need to pass through the grill when it's on, so that is sound transmission. There is a major difference between these two beasts.
Felt around the tweeter = diffraction change
Speaker grill = transmission loss
Just want us all to be clear on the terms used. -
does your understanding of the term "speaker grille" include a frame made out of material that is reflective at audible frequencies like the op's 7c grilles?
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You're fighting the good fight, Scott.
No, my definition of diffraction does not include reflection off the grill frame. That is included in my definition of reflection.
You could have asked if I might consider the diffraction off the edges of the frame to someone far off-axis versus 'grill off', and I'd have admitted defeat. I'd also say you're wasting your time if you think that's going to be an issue. We'd be arguing about the sound that squeezes between the speaker baffle and frame's edge which then diffracts towards the listener. This sound energy is going to be extremely weak and therefore, our efforts are better spent elsewhere.
Make note you can put stuff on the frame's surface to absorb reflections. We can prevent reflections.
You cannot prevent diffraction. You can only absorb diffracted waves and prevent them from reflecting. This is how the felt around the tweeter works.
Now we're getting into the nitty gritty of physics, which is not nearly enough fun.
P.s. Geometry(stuff like the shape and size of grills and obstructions) is an important factor in diffraction. -
geez,, tylers=grills off,,SDA's=grills on.JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
