Power Conditioners/Line Conditioners

GregoryOrme

Do you all use power/line conditioners in your home theater setups? If so, what would be a reasonable way to go? I am putting together a respectable, not audiophile-ish, system: Onkyo TX-SR606 AV receiver, Emotiva XPA-3 amp, RTI A9 fronts, CSi A6 center, FXi A6 rear surrounds, and DSW PRO 500 subwoofer. To be honest, my only experience with ANY kind of power conditioner is in computer use, and passing by them in Best Buy and thinking, "There's a sucker born every minute." However, I'm thinking there's something out there that's worth the money and will improve the sound. If there is, I think I'm asking the right people. Thanks, and Happy 2009!

Greg

ShinAce

I might consider one for the TV if I was going 1080p to make sure the image is clear.

For audio, I've always used line filters. It's basically a crossover that selects 60 Hz to pass through and blocks/shunts the rest.

I'm with you, I can't justify the expense of a power conditioner for something that already works extremely well. It feels like a massive diminishing return. However, we each have our own budgets.

Dawgfish

GregoryOrme,

This is a subject that I have seen debated here and on other forums. I personally run two Panamax 5100 power conditioner/surge protectors in my system and have had great luck with them. I noticed greater picture quality with my TV, and it improved the general audio quality of my system appreciably. My highs and lows became much more detailed and pronounced with the addition of the surge protectors/power conditioners. Knowing now the difference these made with my system, I would definitley recommend them to others. I have to admit though, that I bought my power conditioners at a ridicously low price when a local A/V store went out of business, so that made the purchase much easier. Still though, seeing the difference they made with my system, If I would have paid full retail for them, I still believe the purchase would have been worth it.

On a side note. You are assembling quite a nice sytem there. One thing though, it was my understanding that the Onkyo 606 does not have preouts to use with an external amp (like the Emotiva you are planning to use). If you are looking to stay with an Onkyo, you'll have to step up to the 706 to get the preouts. If you want to stay with something in the same price range as the 606, the Yamaha V-663 has preouts and I think the HK AVR 254 may have them also, but I'm not certain on the HK. Regardless, if you plan on using an external amp, which it sounds like you are, you need to look at a reciever with preouts. Others here I'm sure will have something to add to this. Just an FYI.

Steve

Willow

I use a Monster 3600MKII, did it make a dif over the panamax, not really. Do I find a difference over straight from the wall? couldn't tell you as I never went that route

rayslifecycle

I use a fairly inexpensive panamax line conditioner for my HT and it definitely made a difference in how clean the system sounded wich improved the soundstage........it is around 80-100 bucks.

I am going to be getting one soon for my 2 channel rig - and the new one will be an upgrade.......

They take about a hundred hours or so to break in and really hear the difference - you just come home one day and your system sounds remakably better........it's happenned twice to me now......

janmike

I use a CPC from BPT for my HT & a Shunyata Hydra 8 for my 2CH rig. Improvement all round and would not be without them. I like protecting my investments.

XJRGUY

I use and recommend a Belkin Pure AV PF60 and the Pure AV UPS.

So far they have performed well with no problems.

You can get them way under MSRP if you search ebay or the internet.

comfortablycurt

You won't be able to hook that amp up to your 606...it doesn't have any pre-amp out's. If you're set on going the external amp route you might want to look into the Onkyo 706 or 806. That should be a damn nice setup when you're done with it though.

I just got a Panamax power conditioner a few months ago...it was being upgraded from a standard 5 dollar surge strip. The difference in my sound quality was very noticeable. It only cost me about 45 bucks...I'm not sure of the model no. off hand though.

GregoryOrme

Thanks everyone for the great advice on the conditioners and for the tip on the Onkyo. Happy 2009 and happy listening!

Freak When C

Hey guys, I'm reviving an old thread instead of starting a new one (learned from my emo cable post to search the froum first before starting new threads ).

I'm confused by all the different power conditioner out there. Also confused by the upgraded power cables available (do they really help?)

I'm using Belkin power strips that just provide surge protection. But I do have a ground loop issue with my amp and so I'm using a cheater plug and it seems to eliminate the problem. But I'm wondering if I should only consider this to be a temporary fix and invest in a decent power conditioner. So I started poking around Audiogon looking at the different power conditioners and man; there's a ton of them and some are very expensive! :rolleyes:

After doing a little research on some of the sold items that went for $500 and under, I came across a review for Richard Gray's Power Company 400S AC line conditioner. Here on the third page the comments are not very favorable for how it affects the sound. The review is quite dated but similar AC line conditioners are still available from Richard Gray's Power Company and a couple of Richard Gray's Power 400 AC line conditioners recently sold on Audiogon. The Shunyata Research Hydra models go quick, also.

So do you guys use any AC line conditioners? Does anyone here use either Richard Gray's or Shunyata Research Hydra models?

pablo_rodz

I like my Panamax, another option for you.

vc69

Freak When C wrote: »

The review is quite dated but similar AC line conditioners are still available from Richard Gray's Power Company and a couple of Richard Gray's Power 400 AC line conditioners recently sold on Audiogon. The Shunyata Research Hydra models go quick, also.

So do you guys use any AC line conditioners? Does anyone here use either Richard Gray's or Shunyata Research Hydra models?

No direct experience with them but I have a buddy that swears by his Richard Gray conditioner.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I run some Monster product's but the only noticeable difference i have experienced is improved picture quality, not shure if i would spend the money again if i had to....

Initially i wanted the belkin but settled on the Monster product's, got suckered by the marketing i guess

comfortablycurt

I'm using an APC H10 power conditioner/voltage regulator.

It did definitely make some improvements in the rig. It wasn't as dramatic of an improvement as changing one of your components or speakers by any mean...but it was still an improvement.

I noticed an overall cleaner, more focused sound, blacker backgrounds in music and a slightly increase in bass volume/impact.

It didn't really color the sound...just cleaned up what was already there.

The voltage regulation is nice too, since it makes sure that each component is being fed with the proper amount of juice.

Another plus is the fact that most of the nice power conditioners out there make for a much better surge protector than most of the power strips that are out there. Most of them even have guarantee's on all connected equipment. If any of your components get damaged from a power surge while they're properly connected to the conditioner, the companies will replace them at their own cost.

The H10's can be had for cheap too...I'd definitely recommend it.

Krazyz1

I use the A.R.T. PRO series. Only the PRO series have APF filtering. Google them. All I can tell you is I have a Buckcherry DVD and sound quality SUCKED!!!!. I put in a A.R.T. PRO series and now the DVD sounds as good as the original CD. I am also using HOSPITAL GRADE recepts. ( 10.00 @ Lowe's ) and a dedicated power service to all my audio equipt.You can by the PRO series A.R.T. with no read outs for about 85.00 and are stand alone or rack mountable. Good for 1800 watts. I strongly believe the APF filtering made the sound quality difference for me. They make some NOT in the PRO line but you don't get the APF.

Krazyz1

A thought to ponder. a Hospital grade recept has 3 contact points where a standard only has two. Standard recept connections riveted only. Hospital rivited and welded. Also Hospital is silver plated , better grade of copper , and the clamping spring pressure on contacts much stiffer. Go to Lowe's , grab a 3 prong plug and stick it even in a good grade recept. THEN stick plug in hospital recept. Almost twice the pressure to insert. Must be something to it required by code for hospitals for theyre high sensitivity monotoring equipt.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

Thank's for the tip on the receptacle's Krazy1! I'll have to have a look around the local building supply store's and see what i can find

kawizx9r

pablo_rodz wrote: »

I like my Panamax, another option for you.

+1

Also here's a thread I had started where a few others explained the differences between said products.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85831

Hope it helps, and answers some of your questions you've got in mind.

Jeff_J

I've been using a Furman PL-Plus power conditioner since I bought it brand new almost ten years ago. Only a week ago did I find a Monster Power HTS-5100 for cheap on the local Craigslist and I jumped on it. Well let me tell you, I did indeed notice some big time differences right off the bat:

1.) My excellent soundstage was ALL but gone.

2.) Bass was more prominent, definitely more "oomph" to it if you will, but overall it was just louder and muddier than before. Made my 2-Channel rig now sounded like a Wally-World car stereo demo board(read: not good).

Before with the Furman hooked up, it sounded as if there really was a center channel speaker in the room being utilized. The Monster Power center on the other hand, took all of that once-prominent soundstaging away right from the get go after being installed.

Needless to say I switched right back to the Furman at the end of the weekend. I paid under two bills for the HTS-5100 so there's no real loss here as it shouldn't be that hard to flip - especially given it's "allmighty" Monster branding and all, but I can't help but feel sorry for those people who plucked down the 700 or whatever MSRP for one of these units new out of the store.

Maybe I just got a dud or something?? But upon a little further investigating on other various audio forums, the Monster Power line of products certainly has its share of detractors.

Krazyz1

If you check into all the reviews Furman has a couple models that are lemons also. The one particular 1 everyone bitched about a hum in theyre system they couldnt get rid of. Everyone sounded PI**ED. That's why I use the A.R.T. PRO models. It is what you would see back stage in a rack at a concert. ALL models come with a BNC connectable goose neck lamp. Spacing is such on outlets you could plug in I believe 3 wall warts. If you buy the top of the line they have pull out tube lights with adjustable dimmer knob AND gooseneck light. Also red L.E.D. Volt , Current readouts. Go to system show case and look at my system. Some good pictures of the A.R.T.'S. Average retail 249.00 each

Krazyz1

For anyone that is curious the difference between standard household recept and Hospital grade is as follows. Standard: Low grade of copper. Only 2 contact points to plug. Plug contacts IN recept riveted to buss in body. Low tension spring. Next time your in a electrical supply house grab any o'l 3 prong plug and stick it in standard household and notice the resistance to push plug in. Hospital grade: VERY GOOD copper alloy. ( some specific grades are even silver plated. ) Has 3 contact points to plug. Interior plug contacts riveted AND welded. Isolated ground. Now when you put the 3 prong plug into the hospital grade you will notice SIGNIFICANT more push needed to fully insert plug. Dedicated power service and hospital grade recepts the only way to go!!!!!

quadzilla

GregoryOrme wrote: »

Do you all use power/line conditioners in your home theater setups? If so, what would be a reasonable way to go? I am putting together a respectable, not audiophile-ish, system: Onkyo TX-SR606 AV receiver, Emotiva XPA-3 amp, RTI A9 fronts, CSi A6 center, FXi A6 rear surrounds, and DSW PRO 500 subwoofer. To be honest, my only experience with ANY kind of power conditioner is in computer use, and passing by them in Best Buy and thinking, "There's a sucker born every minute." However, I'm thinking there's something out there that's worth the money and will improve the sound. If there is, I think I'm asking the right people. Thanks, and Happy 2009!

Greg

Guess I'm a sucker then, since I run all my computer systems through APC UPSes, which also includes power conditioning. But while this sucker's systems hum right along, my friends bring me a litany of requests to help them fix this or that system that had a component just suddenly fail. I have no proof, but the difference would seem to be that my systems are not subject to spikes/sags from the AC lines, while their's are. If they run a filter at all, it's usually just some cheap-o power strip/"surge protector" (5 bucks doesn't buy you much in the way of protection). Also, the entire 20 years I've been in IT, it's been standard practice to drop a decent surge protector at each user's outlet and plug their systems into that. But then, we all know how businesses just love to waste money on useless components.

Same thing applies to HT. You don't have to run a conditioner if you think they're just for suckers, but you may see video interference, hear noises that are hard to track down and eliminate, and experience a lack of reliability in components. And I figure that since I've got several thousand tied up in my system, investing another couple of hundred for whatever degree of protection my Furman and APC conditioners can provide is worth it. Might just be me, though.

Take all that for whatever it's worth.

Freak When C

Well I certainly have to thank y'all for the suggestions and comments. The use of AC power conditioners is quite a controversial subject in some other audio forums (forum names intentionally left unmentioned).

Some of the AC Conditioners I've read about take 20 amp power cords and have 20 amp receptacles to plug equipment into. If I were to swap out a couple wall receptacles for those Hospital grade 20 amp versions, would it be OK to use a 20 amp AC Conditioner unit even though the AC lines that run to my breaker box are only 15 amp?

TNRabbit

Freak When C wrote: »

Well I certainly have to thank y'all for the suggestions and comments. The use of AC power conditioners is quite a controversial subject in some other audio forums (forum names intentionally left unmentioned).

Some of the AC Conditioners I've read about take 20 amp power cords and have 20 amp receptacles to plug equipment into. If I were to swap out a couple wall receptacles for those Hospital grade 20 amp versions, would it be OK to use a 20 amp AC Conditioner unit even though the AC lines that run to my breaker box are only 15 amp?

Definitely not!

If I'm not mistaken, ALL 20 amp conditioners/surge protection devices use a non-standard plug, so they shouldn't even plug into a standard 15-amp receptacle.

superjunior

running a dedicated 20amp circut to my set up will be my next upgrade

mmadden28

Freak When C wrote: »

... If I were to swap out a couple wall receptacles for those Hospital grade 20 amp versions, would it be OK to use a 20 amp AC Conditioner unit even though the AC lines that run to my breaker box are only 15 amp?

Yes and No.

Typically 15A circuits use 14 gauge wire. 20A circuits require 12 gauge. Just replacing the receptacles with 20A versions so that you can use the 20A conditioner will work, but your not supposed to do it-I'm sure its against a code somewhere. Is it dangerous? Maybe-but no more than overloading a single receptacle by using a bunch of power strips as the 15 amp breaker will still trip as its designed to do. Just DO NOT replace the 15A breaker with a 20A breaker. If you replace the breaker-yes its dangerous and highly against code. Yes it's possible that you may already have 12 gauge wire on that 15A circuit, but unless you know 100% for sure that all the wiring on that circuit is 12 gauge or thicker, then don't chance it (I believe some states/localities require a minimum of 12 gauge even on 15A circuits).
When in doubt call an electrician.

The only way to be entirely in code (and be a better choice for your gear anyway) is to run a new dedicated 20A receptacle, using 12 (or 10) gauge wire to a new 20A breaker.

Caveat: I am not a licensed electrician

concealer404

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I'm using an APC H10 power conditioner/voltage regulator.

It did definitely make some improvements in the rig. It wasn't as dramatic of an improvement as changing one of your components or speakers by any mean...but it was still an improvement.

I noticed an overall cleaner, more focused sound, blacker backgrounds in music and a slightly increase in bass volume/impact.

It didn't really color the sound...just cleaned up what was already there.

The voltage regulation is nice too, since it makes sure that each component is being fed with the proper amount of juice.

Another plus is the fact that most of the nice power conditioners out there make for a much better surge protector than most of the power strips that are out there. Most of them even have guarantee's on all connected equipment. If any of your components get damaged from a power surge while they're properly connected to the conditioner, the companies will replace them at their own cost.

The H10's can be had for cheap too...I'd definitely recommend it.

This. I have an H15, and i love it. I noticed all the same improvements that you outlined. HB27 and i were having a conversation about this last night as well. I'll bet that anyone with a decent set of ears would notice a definite improvement.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I've been giving more thought into this area and this is what i have come up with: I have both a Monster avs2000 + hts5100 but the difference in performance is/was negligible to me and for the money spent i could have purchased a separate amp and REALLY noticed an improvement! The only noticeable difference to me was improved picture quality, but definately not $1500+ worth of improvement lol

As such i was thinking of selling them both and with the money i get back from the sale of the 2 monster piece's i could get myself a separate amp and "wake" my system up no?

Would this be a good enough setup for my use: hospital grade outlet's and this surge protector http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10060269&catid=

Cheer's!

Freak When C

sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »

As such i was thinking of selling them both and with the money i get back from the sale of the 2 monster piece's i could get myself a separate amp and "wake" my system up no?

Would this be a good enough setup for my use: hospital grade outlet's and this surge protector http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10060269&catid=

Cheer's!

Look in the used market and see what those monster peices are going for. You may not be able to get even half your money back selling them, but worth a try I reckon. Name your price and see if you get any interest.

The Dynex powerstrip got positive reviews from customers and the specs appear decent. Certainly looks like it will get the job done. Only thing I question is for the price, is it any better than one of those $25 Belkin surge protectors?

Freak When C

mmadden28 wrote: »

Typically 15A circuits use 14 gauge wire. 20A circuits require 12 gauge. Just replacing the receptacles with 20A versions so that you can use the 20A conditioner will work, but your not supposed to do it-I'm sure its against a code somewhere. Is it dangerous? Maybe-but no more than overloading a single receptacle by using a bunch of power strips as the 15 amp breaker will still trip as its designed to do.

The only way to be entirely in code (and be a better choice for your gear anyway) is to run a new dedicated 20A receptacle, using 12 (or 10) gauge wire to a new 20A breaker.

Well the only reason I had in mind in replacing the receptacle to accommodate a 20 amp AC conditioner was so I could plug it into the wall. The gear I would be pluging into the power conditioner would be the same gear I have now, which is not pulling than 15 amps. I have a Rotel Class-D 100 watt 5 channel amp and a Parasound 45 watt Zamp .v3. So it's not like I have 300 watt monoblocks or other very hi-powered gear in use.

But here's the thing, if I ever did decide to upgrade the circuit by running 12 or 10 gauge line and a 20 amp breaker, I'd be all set with the AC conditioner I already have since it's rated for 20 amp use. Does that make sense or am I missing something?

mmadden28

Makes sense to me, but there still might be a code thing about doing it. Might be perfectly fine, but you should still get verification from a electrician first--not sure if any electricians on this board are watching this thread or not to speak up.

By the way, in case your interested, TigerDirect has the APC H10 for $99. Prob not free shipping though.