This is the best i could do with Velodyne SMS-1

kolyan2k

I have dual ML Dynamos and LSI9s for mains and I played alittle with volume, phasing (on both), and this is the best I got with AutoEQ (not SelfEQ mode)

anything after 80hz pretty much stays the same and I cannot get a straight line like guys at Outlaw did in their SMS-1 manual

thsmith

Might try get the best flat response possible with just one sub and then integrate the second.

Take it back to basics and work your way up.

Focus on dips then EQ the peaks.

I have not used SMS-1 but have used REW and BFD, the principles are the same though.

Eric W

I'd recommend you get rid of the extreme boost at 20 Hz. I have the same SMS-1 and in my experience the extreme boost- no matter what woofer system adds distortion and reduces overall output since you're asking the woofer to reproduce sounds below its natural roll off (ontop of any EQ the woofer already has applied from the manufacturer). If you want to boost it gently to try to get more extension it may be OK but +6 dB means 4x the amount of power going into those lower frequencies.

Also, do the EQing manually. The SMS-1 you can adjust the frequency and bandwidth of each filter when doing it manually and you should be able to iron out the response.

As for not being able to change anything above 80 Hz- if you're subwoofer is crossed over at 80 Hz and your SMS-1 is between the LFE/sub out and your subwoofer, the SMS-1's EQ will do nothing for frequencies above that, since your main speakers are reproducing those frequencies.

kolyan2k

let me know what you think. does this look like a good graph or should i reconsider my purchase ? spent another hour playing with this unit. here is the result:

Eric W

Looks pretty good 80 and below but I don't like how you had to stack the THREE EQs to give that much boost preceded by extreme cut. When you need that much boost (or cut), then something else is wrong and should be addressed first. Then looks like quite a dip above that. You may have some phase cancellation or the subs (speakers or listening position) are simply in the middle of a null.

What is your crossover point? Can you draw a diagram of the speakers, subs and listening area in the room? But more importantly, how does it sound?

kolyan2k

crossover is set to 80, both subs phase set to 180, both are 1/2 volume, mic was placed at ear listening position in the center of the couch (ear height), the ceilings are almost 8ft, and the subs are set for front firing.

kolyan2k

Here is a photo for better idea of how it looks (picture was taken without SMS-1)

Eric W

Hmm OK- I know you said you played with the phasing in your first post, but how did you do it? Did you start with the "rough" adjustments (the 0 and 180) to see which has the least cancellation and then use the "fine" 15° increments on the SMS-1.

I think part of the problem may be that extremely large open area to the left. Have you tried moving the subwoofers around? The right one should be OK but I'd try moving around the left one. Is it possible to relocate the left subwoofer somewhere along the right wall? How does the graph look with the subs muted?

kolyan2k

before using SMS-1 eqs., I played with the phase switches on both subs in order to get close to flat line, after that i started equalizing. here are 3 more shots: 1. corner sub off, other on 2. corner sub on, other sub off and 3. SMS-1 muted

ps I cannot change the location of the subs. and other ps. I also moved 63hz a little to the left in order to spread those three eqs

kolyan2k

input from avsforum:

"Definitely lose the 20hz boost. The Dynamos are not designed for that. Keep in mind that this is a fully parametric eq. You do not have to stick with those center frequencies. Try different crossover point and use the phase adjustment to help flatten the curve in and around the crossover points."

kolyan2k

couple of more runs. dont know which one to keep out of these 3

wingnut4772

My first reaction from looking at those pics is placement, placement, placement. I have an SMS-1 as well.

kolyan2k

wingnut4772 wrote: »

My first reaction from looking at those pics is placement, placement, placement. I have an SMS-1 as well.

I only have about a ft. to play with. i can move both closer to mains, or i can move left sub other ft. away from left main speaker. i dont know if such a small difference can be heard

LessisNevermore

I would loose the boost on all frequencies. Bring 'em back to 0db, and increase your output back to reference level.
I would set all eq bands at 0db, until you get your placement.

EQ's are best used to cut peaks, rather than boost nulls. You'll prevent over driving your sub into distortion. (as was mentioned) Some mild boost is ok, if absolutely necessary.

Room modes occur in all directions, so don't rule out getting those subs up off the floor. This worked well for me.

I also wouldn't worry too much about a ruler-flat response, it looks good on paper, but usually doesn't sound too good in an acoustically imperfect room. (i.e.: all of them):D

Location, location, location.......

kolyan2k

LessisNevermore wrote: »

I would loose the boost on all frequencies. Bring 'em back to 0db, and increase your output back to reference level.
I would set all eq bands at 0db, until you get your placement.

EQ's are best used to cut peaks, rather than boost nulls. You'll prevent over driving your sub into distortion. (as was mentioned) Some mild boost is ok, if absolutely necessary.

Room modes occur in all directions, so don't rule out getting those subs up off the floor. This worked well for me.

I also wouldn't worry too much about a ruler-flat response, it looks good on paper, but usually doesn't sound too good in an acoustically imperfect room. (i.e.: all of them):D

Location, location, location.......

i am just fallowing Outlaws guide. They eqed their Outlaw sub in the sample and eq-4 and eq-8 are picked at 6db

here are few more shots of un-eqed signal with left sub on and left sub off

thsmith

LessisNevermore wrote: »

I would loose the boost on all frequencies. Bring 'em back to 0db, and increase your output back to reference level.
I would set all eq bands at 0db, until you get your placement.

EQ's are best used to cut peaks, rather than boost nulls. You'll prevent over driving your sub into distortion. (as was mentioned) Some mild boost is ok, if absolutely necessary.

Room modes occur in all directions, so don't rule out getting those subs up off the floor. This worked well for me.

I also wouldn't worry too much about a ruler-flat response, it looks good on paper, but usually doesn't sound too good in an acoustically imperfect room. (i.e.: all of them):D

Location, location, location.......

+1, I said that in post #2.

kolyan2k

I will keep this for now. in final i also reduced the left and right peaks like you advised. The graph looks almost the same. This is with mic placed in seating position about 3ft to the left closer to open space. 3 ft to the right makes very little difference.

Eric W

So how does it sound?

MikeC78

That would be the most important question. Instead of soley worrying about a graph.

kolyan2k

listened to some music and it feels like the bass feels the room more......but i am a believer in placebo effect thats why i wanted to get SMS-1, so that i can see the results not just hear them.

Eric W

Yup, that's all that matters. I'd be most concerned about the integration between the speakers and the mains. Does it sound smooth and seamless in the bass-midbass region?

And I know what you mean about being analytical wanting to "see" the results of the tweaks. The SMS-1 is an excellent tool for subwoofer tweaking. It works great for tuning your car sub too (if you have a seperate sub and EQ/phase shifter)

kolyan2k

I like it over all. It sounds good, it looks good on graph, or should I say better, and I like the fact that I have 6 presets.

rtart

kolyan2k wrote: »

I have dual ML Dynamos and LSI9s for mains and I played alittle with volume, phasing (on both), and this is the best I got with AutoEQ (not SelfEQ mode)

anything after 80hz pretty much stays the same and I cannot get a straight line like guys at Outlaw did in their SMS-1 manual

I have had an SMS-1 and four SVS 20-39 PCPlus's for years. Prior to that I had a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) that did similar duty. There is a LOT of info on both systems on AVSForum.com. I have a big space in my dedicated HT, and like lots of accurate bass.

Here are a couple of things I have learned, that may (or may not!) help in your quest. Placement is the sole, largest influencer of bass "quality", IMO. First, try "crawling for bass" by placing the sub in your normal listening position (Yep, in your chair, or where it just was) and play a bass-heavy track or movie. With the SMS-1 out of the circuit, crawl around near where you think the subs should be, or where you want to put them. When you find the spot that is the loudest, you have found the spot where your ROOM wants the sub(s) to be. Use a Rat Shack SPL meter, if you have one, on a tripod in your seat. It hears a lot better than your ears. Put your subs there, as a starting point. If you have multiple subs, do the same for each one. Phasing becomes an issue with multiple subs, so we'll do that next.

Place your subs in the starting position as described above and play the bass-heavy material again. Try different phase settings on both (or all) subs to find the loudest settings as heard from your listening position. Use a Rat Shack SPL meter, if you have one, on a tripod in your seat.

Now, you can finally turn on your fancy new SMS-1. BTW, does your AVR have an auto-calibration feature? I ran my system's (Pio VSX-84txsi) auto cal SW first, then ran the SMS-1. (I also did the reverse, but this sounded better in my case. Try both ways.)

Run the SMS-1's auto cal routine and see what you get. You may be happy right away (I wasn't.) If you have big dips around 80 to 100 HZ, try futzing around with the crossover freqs inside your AVR. They are probably adjustable, or may simply allow you to choose speaker types as "Large", or "Small". THX says 80 Hz, (well, sort of says...) so many AVR's default to this setting. If your speakers are large, try a higher setting like 120Hz to see if it helps smooth the dip.

Now, if you still need help, remember, it is better (for your gear, and ears) to cut, not boost. I set my levels to flatten out the curve by cutting the highs, and can always boost the overall volume level on the SMS-1 to compensate.

Simple, right?

I also noticed that your room is very live acoustically. Have you considered acoustic treatments, or adding softer materials like drapes or upholstered chairs? Even big floor pillows can help a lot.

Also, your inability to impact the curve above 80Hz tells me to look at your AVR's crossover settings. If the AVR is not sending over-80Hz info to your LFE output, the SMS-1 won't see it, and thus cannot change it.

The good news is that solid, clean bass will add a real dimension to your audio experience. It's not always fun to get, but is LOTS of fun to have.

Good luck!