Anybody use Denon AVRs?

Norm Apter

I'm trying to narrow a list of AVRs for an HT system to drive five Rti A series speakers (two A5s, two A1s and an A6) down to a select few candidates before I head to some retail shops to do some critical listening. I want something that will do a decent job driving these speakers in the meantime and something that has Pre-Outs so that one day I will have the option of adding an external amp for more power. Don't want to spend more than $600 or so.

Originally, I was set on the Onkyo 805/806, but I've read about a lot of heat issues. Still in the running though as that doesn't seem to be a deal buster.

Mantis (Dan) suggested a Pioneer Elite vsx01tx and other candidates include the Yammie 663 and Harmon Kardon 354.

In addition to those, I stumbled across the Denon AVR-988. I don't know anything about Denon though. Thus, while I would be interested in hearing the sound and seeing the picture it transmits, I am wondering about the reputation of Denon in terms of (long term) reliability, any heat issues and whether folks in general feel that their power ratings are accurate. The one listed above (988) is rated at 110 watts per channel, but I've been informed that companies rate their own products so there isn't necessarily one standard across the board (?)

Perhaps any folks who have used or debuted Denon AVRs can chime in here.

Thanks,
Norm

thsmith

Norn, I have the 2808CI with is very similiar to the 988, I think the remote is differnt on the 2808 and comes with a seperate zone remote.

I only use the Denon for audio pass through so I can not comment on its video scaling but it does use Foruja as most all AVRs in that price range.

My 2808 has pre-outs and use a Carver TFM amp for mains.

Whatever you do buy from an authorized etailor like 6ave and call them do not use their website as the final price. Be sure to tell them you are an AVSforum member for discount. You will be happy with price, be aware their customer satisgfaction return is only 7 days.

The denon manual suck but there is plenty of help on the AVSforum for this receiver.

It is probably to soon to get a really good price on the 2809 which has the Audessy volume feature and more HDMI ports. I wish I had waited as I have longed for the volume feature.

I am very pleased with my denon. BTW, listening to AVRs in most stores buys you nothing as they have not even ran the speaker calc program.

If money is a hard limit, seriously call 6ave for the 998 and Yamaha 663 price, I checked on the 663 for a friend and was shocked how much it has dropped. I do prefer Denon for Audessy though.

apphd

That looks like a big spread in models! I probably spend too much time on different forums because I can tell you that owners of the Onk, HK, Yamaha, and Denons, for the most all seem to be very happy with them. I don't hear much on that Pioneer model, but a lot of good comments on the Elite line in general, especially the 9x models. A friend of mine had a Pioneer stereo receiver back in the late 70's that was sweet.

I have had Denon (Pro Logic) for many years it never failed or lost any functions and sounded great. I sold it to move up to the newer surround formats and with a 1 year old baby wanted to do so on a budget.

Went with the Yamaha 663 I am happy, it gives me everything I was looking for (but nothing more) at a price I was willing to pay. The sound is quite good, but I liked how my Denon sounded a little better. Not sure how the newer Denons would compare to that 19 year old model though.

The Yamaha is a very solid unit with the bare minimum that anyone would probably need @ a price that I think only a couple others could compete with. YMMV

Not very familiar at all with the HK other than a lot of Polk owners think they work well with Polks and might offer the best SQ.

The Onk and Denon I think offer a lot more features but are priced as such.

I added a 7 ch amp to my Yamaha and for me this is the way to go. An AVR that has just enough of the features you need, plus pre-outs. AVR/pre-amp technology changes so fast I would rather replace entry level units every couple years rather than flagship models. One of the reasons I just upgraded from the Pro Logic, they kept coming out with newer technology (5.1 - 6.1 -7.1 - DD, DTS, THX, etc. etc) before I could decide what I wanted.;)

thsmith

apphd, Even though I don't own the 663 I push it whenever I can because of the reasons you mentioned, can be has NEW for $35X with free shipping from authorized etailor. I would stay away from the Onk 606 just because of it has no pre-outs and Audessy is a bit limitied on that model.

VXR8

Hi Norm,

I have the 3808 and it is a great receiver. I do use the video properties and the Denon is one of the best around for that too. It has all the latest codecs as well. I just sold a Rotel amp (RB-991), which I was using to drive my LSi9s, and am only using the Denon now to drive those. I can tell the sound isn't as full as it was when being driven by a 300 watt per channel amp, but it still sounds good and will get me through until I buy the Emo XPA-2 and XPA-5 amps.

As for Denon quality, Denon are the only manufacturer of the mainstream brands to be "Made in Japan" - this was the clincher for me. Good luck and let us know how you go.

bigred7078

Hey Norm! I have a 2809ci (basically the 988). Its a fantastic unit. These newer Denons are top notch in my books. They have all the features one could possibly want. Im not a fan of AVR upscaling, so thats not a feature to look for in my books. The OSD is old school graphic wise, but its very easy to use. Audyssey IMO is not quite as easy has others can make it seem, but once implemented properly it can REALLY help your system sound better, especially if you have an awkward shaped room. Of course being able to decode all the newest codecs is also a plus But anywho i have found this to be one of the best receivers i have owned to date. I also really like the look of it, very sleek and sexy. The 2809 also has faded "decals" so it makes the front of the unit look MUCH cleaner IMO.


VXR8,
Keep in mind not all the Denon products are made in Japan. Everything Below the 2xxx series is made in China. Just an FYI. Im not sure about the non CI models like the 988, but you get the picuture. But thee Japanese models are just top notch in terms of build quality and sound quality. I would imagine you would like a Denon alot, but i guess they are not for everyone. A great receiver bang for the buck is defiantely the Yammy 663, but if you can find a Pioneer 1018 for cheaper i think those are fantastic units as well.

-Steve

beardog03

I use the 3802 with a Parasound HCA2205a amp to drive my Lsi 5.1 setp...

works great for me

Ricardo

I am using a 3808 now, and it replaced a 3803. No external amps, driving RTi8's, CSi5 and small surrounds. Very happy with Denon.

apphd

thsmith wrote: »

apphd, Even though I don't own the 663 I push it whenever I can because of the reasons you mentioned, can be has NEW for $35X with free shipping from authorized etailor. I would stay away from the Onk 606 just because of it has no pre-outs and Audessy is a bit limitied on that model.

bigred7078 wrote: »

Hey Norm! I have a 2809ci (basically the 988). Its a fantastic unit. These newer Denons are top notch in my books......... I would imagine you would like a Denon alot, but i guess they are not for everyone. A great receiver bang for the buck is defiantely the Yammy 663, but if you can find a Pioneer 1018 for cheaper i think those are fantastic units as well.

-Steve

The Pioneer 1018 was one of the others that I think can compete with the 663 as the bare minimum folks should consider. With good efficient speakers and a modest size room many would be set for many years as is. The pre-outs open the door for future upgrades if desired. When the next technology jump comes for me it is much easier to sell the AVR quickly because my initial cost was relatively low I can sell it pretty low/fast with out any regrets. Then replace with a newer AVR in this class at a price that I can easily handle. It might not be one of the first units to offer the newer technology but what ever it is eventually will migrate to the lower products.

So Norm A you have a good speaker selection listed that I think many would be happy with for years. You mention $600 in your OP the 663 and 1018 can be had around the $400 point. The others probably closer to your budget max. If they have a feature you absolutely must have that the two cheaper ones don't then you must scratch those off the list and it got a little easier.

If you think you might move to some different less efficient or 4ohm speakers you will need an amp to drive them effectively. So the amp section of the AVRs on the list becomes less of a factor, and the $200 difference in cost could be banked for an amp purchase.

All the AVRs you listed offer quality at affordable prices. They all have little quirks that some find to be deal breakers: heat, BTB/WTW, HDMI handshakes, etc. They each will sound a little different, but you won't really know if you like the sound until you get them home and calibrated.

Consider your future plans and budget, then go from there. Yes definitely go listen to your choices, it will show you what it can sound like. Rarely have I found anything that sounds the same in my room with the rest of my equipment as it did when I demo'd it. If you can get something home to demo it then you will have a better tool to help with the decision.

Norm Apter

apphd wrote: »

The Pioneer 1018 was one of the others that I think can compete with the 663 as the bare minimum folks should consider. With good efficient speakers and a modest size room many would be set for many years as is. The pre-outs open the door for future upgrades if desired. When the next technology jump comes for me it is much easier to sell the AVR quickly because my initial cost was relatively low I can sell it pretty low/fast with out any regrets. Then replace with a newer AVR in this class at a price that I can easily handle. It might not be one of the first units to offer the newer technology but what ever it is eventually will migrate to the lower products.

So Norm A you have a good speaker selection listed that I think many would be happy with for years. You mention $600 in your OP the 663 and 1018 can be had around the $400 point. The others probably closer to your budget max. If they have a feature you absolutely must have that the two cheaper ones don't then you must scratch those off the list and it got a little easier.

If you think you might move to some different less efficient or 4ohm speakers you will need an amp to drive them effectively. So the amp section of the AVRs on the list becomes less of a factor, and the $200 difference in cost could be banked for an amp purchase.

All the AVRs you listed offer quality at affordable prices. They all have little quirks that some find to be deal breakers: heat, BTB/WTW, HDMI handshakes, etc. They each will sound a little different, but you won't really know if you like the sound until you get them home and calibrated.

Consider your future plans and budget, then go from there. Yes definitely go listen to your choices, it will show you what it can sound like. Rarely have I found anything that sounds the same in my room with the rest of my equipment as it did when I demo'd it. If you can get something home to demo it then you will have a better tool to help with the decision.

To all: thanks for your (positive) comments on Denon models.

To apphd: Thanks for the well-balanced advice.

I believe that the speakers (rti a series) I've just purchased will be with me for several years. Purchasing these was not a snap decision; I gave it some thought over several months before I pulled the trigger. But once I did, I bought all five speakers within one week's time. And based on my preliminary experiences, even in my "transitional" (read: limited) system, I like what I hear a lot.

I'm glad to hear that you feel each of those would potentially fit the bill. So far, I've only been focusing on the audio side of things. Truth be told, my visit to the retail store(s) will be geared just as much if not more toward asking about features and video processing. I wouldn't even really know where to begin right now with asking video-related questions because I don't have a foundation of knowledge there. I can only state that I have a basic 32" LCD (HD Ready?) television. It has only 1 HDMI port (currently not being used). In addition, I just have a cheap ($70) Standard Sony DVD player. Obviously, as time goes by and funds permit, I will be looking to replace that DVDP with some sort of upcaling model (I keep seeing the name OPPO), but on the whole you're probably right -- I should develop a long term plan so that I can figure out what kinds of ports/connectors and capabilities I need.

On the whole, I think my needs are pretty basic and will continue to be. I'm not a gamer, so the only things I'm really interested in is watching movies and listening to music.

Norm

apphd

Norm, looking at your 2 ch rig in your sig. in the last post and I probably don't need to say this but, you said

"my visit to the retail store(s) will be geared just as much if not more toward asking about features and video processing. I wouldn't even really know where to begin right now with asking video-related questions because I don't have a foundation of knowledge there."

Depending on where you shop the same might be true of the sales person you pose the questions to.:eek:

Research the LCD you have, it might be able to do a good job at up converting on it's own and you might not need that in the receiver, just pass it unaltered to the TV and let that do it. It sounds like a new DVD player is in your sights/plan as well. Same thing, if that does a great job at up converting (Oppo to name one) why have the rec. do it?

Hilbert

I have a Yam 663 and predict if you get one you will like it well enough for sound and video quality, ease of use, quality of construction. You will however find it underpowered and will want an amp sooner rather than later.

Norm Apter

Hey Everybody --

I had a long list AVRs (see above) and a plan to listen to them, but I just said screw it and decided to pull the trigger on a Denon AVR-988. Amazon.com had a new/open-box unit (damage to box was the only flaw) for $473 shipped -- it carries Amazon's 30 return policy and the Denon 2 yr. warranty. The 988 is rated at 110 watts per channel (7.1), but most important it is indeed equipped with Pre-Outs so after I move out of my apartment I can go for separate amplification.

Hopefully this thing will work nicely with my Rti A5s/1s/CSI A6 in the short term. Kind of taking a chance here (buying blindly) and I do realize that compared to Onkyos and Yammies, the Denon will be more of a pain to set up, but I have heard pretty good things -- a lot in this very thread -- about the sound and power of Denons so I'm hopeful that this was a good move.

And its MADE IN JAPAN!

Norm

MikeC78

I think you'll be pleased with it, I know I was. For the money you got it for, you couldn't ask for anything better. Congrats and enjoy!

apphd

MikeC78 wrote: »

I think you'll be pleased with it. For the money you got it for, you couldn't ask for anything better. Congrats and enjoy!

+1
Enjoy! This set up should sound very sweet:D:D

VXR8

Norm Apter wrote: »

Hey Everybody --

I had a long list AVRs (see above) and a plan to listen to them, but I just said screw it and decided to pull the trigger on a Denon AVR-988. Amazon.com had a new/open-box unit (damage to box was the only flaw) for $473 shipped -- it carries Amazon's 30 return policy and the Denon 2 yr. warranty. The 988 is rated at 110 watts per channel (7.1), but most important it is indeed equipped with Pre-Outs so after I move out of my apartment I can go for separate amplification.

Hopefully this thing will work nicely with my Rti A5s/1s/CSI A6 in the short term. Kind of taking a chance here (buying blindly) and I do realize that compared to Onkyos and Yammies, the Denon will be more of a pain to set up, but I have heard pretty good things -- a lot in this very thread -- about the sound and power of Denons so I'm hopeful that this was a good move.

And its MADE IN JAPAN!

Norm

Hi Norm,

Good call - yes the Denon isn't as easy to set up (I previously had a Yamaha RX-V4600 and a RX-V2700, which were easier to set up), but where you will win when you have set it all up is SQ in 2 channel. Yamaha (for me) didn't quite cut it in SQ in 2 channel. Good to see this model is also made in Japan too!

Ciao for now.

broncsrule21@

I think you will be happy with that AVR. I have the 2808ci and like it a lot. I was used to the Denon set-up challenges though. I own a avr-3300 also. I have never had an issue with any of the Denon products I have owned. Good luck! and happy listening!

dorokusai

Norm Apter wrote: »

Hey Everybody --

I had a long list AVRs (see above) and a plan to listen to them, but I just said screw it and decided to pull the trigger on a Denon AVR-988. Amazon.com had a new/open-box unit (damage to box was the only flaw) for $473 shipped -- it carries Amazon's 30 return policy and the Denon 2 yr. warranty. The 988 is rated at 110 watts per channel (7.1), but most important it is indeed equipped with Pre-Outs so after I move out of my apartment I can go for separate amplification.

Hopefully this thing will work nicely with my Rti A5s/1s/CSI A6 in the short term. Kind of taking a chance here (buying blindly) and I do realize that compared to Onkyos and Yammies, the Denon will be more of a pain to set up, but I have heard pretty good things -- a lot in this very thread -- about the sound and power of Denons so I'm hopeful that this was a good move.

And its MADE IN JAPAN!

Norm

That's a great choice for the RTiA series loudspeaker.

jon s

I have a Denon receiver and while okay, it is nothing to write home about. Connecting them to my Polk RTA-12Cs or LSi15s showed me how inadequate the amps were. They would easily go into clipping at moderate volumes. The amps could not handle a low impedance load.

I switched over to an Onkyo TX-NR905 anda now a 906, and they can drive the Polks a LOT louder than the Denon. It's pretty obvious where the issue is, the power supply. The Denon power supply is rather small for the amount of power it's rated for. Weighing in at 38lbs, it's pretty lightweight. The Onkyos are 52lbs and it's all in the power supply...

Soundwise, the Denon was very smooth but lackluster. The Onkyo had better impact, a slight grain to the top end but it imaged a lot better than the Denon.

broncsrule21@

jon s wrote: »

I have a Denon receiver and while okay, it is nothing to write home about. Connecting them to my Polk RTA-12Cs or LSi15s showed me how inadequate the amps were. They would easily go into clipping at moderate volumes. The amps could not handle a low impedance load.

I switched over to an Onkyo TX-NR905 anda now a 906, and they can drive the Polks a LOT louder than the Denon. It's pretty obvious where the issue is, the power supply. The Denon power supply is rather small for the amount of power it's rated for. Weighing in at 38lbs, it's pretty lightweight. The Onkyos are 52lbs and it's all in the power supply...

Soundwise, the Denon was very smooth but lackluster. The Onkyo had better impact, a slight grain to the top end but it imaged a lot better than the Denon.

He is talking about running RTiA 5s(8ohm), not the 4ohm speakers you have listed. I've never experienced clipping driving the RTi10s at any volume. So, for his needs this avr will be fine. IMO