Bi-amping the RTi A5 ......

Leon S.

I just got the Polk Audio RTi A5's with a Polk Audio DSW 500 Pro sub-woofer . I will be running them with a Sony STR-DG1000 which is capable of running in a bi-amp configuration. It is used for both, movies and music. My question is, is there any advantage to bi-amping the RTi A5's ? If I do that, I lose the ability to run in 7.1 config., but any audio information that I lose through surround channels 6 and 7 will actually be mixed with surround channels 4 and 5 . Anyway, I only have one blu-ray currently that has a 7.1 soundtrack, and almost all new releases are still 5.1 . I understand the theory of why you should bi-amp, but, are there any TRUE advantages to bi-amping as for as sonics go ? In advance, I want to thank all of you for your time ! Leon.

leroyjr1

Well I've tried bi-amping my RTI A5's , didn't notice any difference. They are very easy to push and IMO not worth bi-amping. Give it a try and see if you notice any difference.
I think you'll be better off adding an external amps. Now that'll make a difference.

How do you like that DSW 500?

Igo

I have the Sony ES receiver and your speakers are the incarnation of my RT800i speakers. I've been switching back and forth for for two months to prove the effect. I don't have room for a 7.1 configuration but I wanted to justify the purchase so I tried this sudo bi-amp. I have neighbors downstairs so I have to keep my sub way down. When I dedicated the rear surrounds to the bottom end/the lower binding post I very diffinitely notice a huge push in the low frequency areas when the music or movies demand it. I expect this is because more power is available for peak material. Also, when I play music with a lot of air in it, the low end string bass sections are much cleaner reproduced via the polk low frequency drivers than by the sub woofer. Lastly, because I must keep my sub woofer tamed, it is very easy to access this next fact; it doesn't take much examination. When I run the would be bi-amp configuration I have to kill the sub-woofer all together. There is that much more punch on the bottom end.
BTW, when I set this new outfit up, I set it up so that I could get to the back of the equipment so that I would be able to test some theories I've had running around in my head for years. I have an SPL meter and I'm gowing to prove the above mention findings with numbers here in the next couple weeks. Stay tuned. (OH, movies will sound OK, all my interest focus on 2 channel steroe)

Chitown_Badger

I've read and heard if you are using the receiver to biamp and you do not have separate amps in the receiver, there is no benefit whatsoever to biamping. The AVR only has so much power to put out, and it gets spread over the available channels as needed...

I'd be curious to see the factual data...

Igo

Chitown_Badger wrote: »

I've read and heard if you are using the receiver to biamp and you do not have separate amps in the receiver, there is no benefit whatsoever to biamping. The AVR only has so much power to put out, and it gets spread over the available channels as needed...

I'd be curious to see the factual data...

Could be. An spl meter on set frequencies will tell the truth. I'll let ya know. I've read everything.

Chitown_Badger

Igo wrote: »

Could be. An spl meter on set frequencies will tell the truth. I'll let ya know. I've read everything.

Well you'll make it easy for me then.

Thread subscribed to.

bopicasso

I bi amped my Rti8s and there was a noticeable difference in the lower end punch. I left them bi amped :-) I am using a onkyo 805

Dagoods

I too noticed a big improvement in the lower end punch. I have RTi10's and Bi-amped them with a Yamaha 663 AVR. Ended up liking it and have now gone to separate amps for each speaker. I am running a Yamaha 2 channel amp on each speaker (vertical amping). RTi10's have MX 800's (2X175 W), CSi5 has a M 60 (2X160 W), RTiA1's have MX 600's (2X135 W).

It's very smooth and has a warmer sound than with just the AVR. They blend very well with my 2 Outlaw LFM EX subs.

Igo

Needs more cow bell.

Igo

Chitown_Badger wrote: »

I've read and heard if you are using the receiver to biamp and you do not have separate amps in the receiver, there is no benefit whatsoever to biamping. The AVR only has so much power to put out, and it gets spread over the available channels as needed...

I'd be curious to see the factual data...

BTW, some "receivers" still have separate power supplies for each output stage.

leroyjr1

Forget bi-amping and get a nice 2 channel amp

curved

leroyjr1 wrote: »

forget bi-amping and get a nice 2 channel amp

+1000

Chitown_Badger

Igo wrote: »

BTW, some "receivers" still have separate power supplies for each output stage.

I have a Pioneer 1018, which I don't believe has that.

thsmith

Igo wrote: »

Needs more cow bell.

Whats your point here ?

thsmith

Dagoods wrote: »

I too noticed a big improvement in the lower end punch. I have RTi10's and Bi-amped them with a Yamaha 663 AVR. Ended up liking it and have now gone to separate amps for each speaker. I am running a Yamaha 2 channel amp on each speaker (vertical amping). RTi10's have MX 800's (2X175 W), CSi5 has a M 60 (2X160 W), RTiA1's have MX 600's (2X135 W).

It's very smooth and has a warmer sound than with just the AVR. They blend very well with my 2 Outlaw LFM EX subs.

Dagoods, Nice set up ! If my 1Cs were Bi-amp'able I would do the same thing.

WHen I ran my RTi8s I had them bi-amped but sold them before I picked up a TFM-25.

How do you like the Outlaws ? Are those the big ones (top of the line)?

6ave has your AVR on sale right now for an unbelievably low price. I am recommending it to anyone I come across looking for an AVR with HDMI and HD codecs.

Igo

If you don't know, explainin' won't do any good.
You wanna be a little nicer with your demands sunshine?

Leon S.

Leon S. wrote: »

I just got the Polk Audio RTi A5's with a Polk Audio DSW 500 Pro sub-woofer . I will be running them with a Sony STR-DG1000 which is capable of running in a bi-amp configuration. It is used for both, movies and music. My question is, is there any advantage to bi-amping the RTi A5's ? If I do that, I lose the ability to run in 7.1 config., but any audio information that I lose through surround channels 6 and 7 will actually be mixed with surround channels 4 and 5 . Anyway, I only have one blu-ray currently that has a 7.1 soundtrack, and almost all new releases are still 5.1 . I understand the theory of why you should bi-amp, but, are there any TRUE advantages to bi-amping as for as sonics go ? In advance, I want to thank all of you for your time ! Leon.

Now, when the CSi A4 center speaker gets here, I'll throw everything together and BI-AMP the A5's. I'll check out some Clapton, find something acoustic, watch, uhhh, I don't know, maybe Jurassic Park, or some such flicks, HEY, I know, I'll also check out IRON MAN. I'll post my thoughts on all of this after that, if anyone cares. Let you know how it all works together. Wish I could do all of this with the Sony BDP-S550 blu-ray player, but, my fiancee says I can't have that until Christmas day . Until then, I thank all of you for your help. I'll be bach .................. !

Dagoods

Yes they are the big one's and I really like them. Lots of punch and they can get all the way down to 16hz. The two of them can really shake the place.

As for the Bi-amping to each his own. I see it no different than running a 5 or 7 channel amp or mono blocks on each speaker. Is it any better? I like it and that's all that matters. It's part of the hobby and fun of it. I would never judge anyone's choices no matter how much I may or may not like it. But that's just me.

TouchOfEvil

I have mine bi-amped right now but honestly didn't notice a big differance.
Adding a amp period made a large differance in the bass. The receiver didn't stand a chance against a amp when it came to performance.
These will take some power too like i said i have em bi-amped running 70watts to the highs and 120 to the mod/bass and they can handle it no problem.

thsmith

No thanks, your not my type

TouchOfEvil

thsmith wrote: »

No thanks, your not my type

thsmith wrote: »

Whats your point here ?

:rolleyes:

Dagoods

I agree with you on the amp providing more punch to the bass. It was amazing how the amps woke up the RTi10's. The AVR's amp just could not push them enough. No big improvement in the highs from my view. I will keep it this way for a while and then set up something different. That's part of the fun.

Karzai

Leon, we do exactly have the same setup, Polk RTi A5 and DSW Pro 500.

I have Onkyo TX-SR707 and I did the bi-amping first, which means I have never heard a non-bi-amped setup.

True, the bass was extremely smooth especially above 80 hz when bi-amped but the high frequencies are somewhat muffled and horrible.

I have left the system bi-amped because I am still under the belief that bi-amping is better than normal. Huge mistake.

I was so fed with the speakers not being able to accurately reproduce higher frequencies, which actually resulted to my bad review of the RTi A5, and decided to remove bi-amping and consider normal connection with jumpers on.

The result was definitely better.

At first, I wondered why there was bad high frequency when I bi-amped, and when I switched to normal, I thought it was the receiver that had inaccurate power feed.

The answer came when I checked the website and found out that RTi a5 have 5-way binding posts but not bi-ampable. The system just looks it is but it is not. The inaccuracy of the high frequency can be traced to tweeters not working at all, considering that RTi A5 can reach 27,000 hz, which is way beyond what humans can hear, it was really hard to believe that it was unable to reproduce enough high frequency.

Yes, there was considerable difference when bi-amped but it turns to worse. The tweeters not working at all.

I feel compelled to offer an apology for my bad review but Polk should have made it explicitly clear that RTi A5 are not bi-ampable or should not be bi-amped. Or at least, bi-amping them will not result in the improvement of sound.

Bernal

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1172533#post1172533

comfortablycurt

Karzai wrote: »

Leon, we do exactly have the same setup, Polk RTi A5 and DSW Pro 500.

I have Onkyo TX-SR707 and I did the bi-amping first, which means I have never heard a non-bi-amped setup.

True, the bass was extremely smooth especially above 80 hz when bi-amped but the high frequencies are somewhat muffled and horrible.

I have left the system bi-amped because I am still under the belief that bi-amping is better than normal. Huge mistake.

I was so fed with the speakers not being able to accurately reproduce higher frequencies, which actually resulted to my bad review of the RTi A5, and decided to remove bi-amping and consider normal connection with jumpers on.

The result was definitely better.

At first, I wondered why there was bad high frequency when I bi-amped, and when I switched to normal, I thought it was the receiver that had inaccurate power feed.

The answer came when I checked the website and found out that RTi a5 have 5-way binding posts but not bi-ampable. The system just looks it is but it is not. The inaccuracy of the high frequency can be traced to tweeters not working at all, considering that RTi A5 can reach 27,000 hz, which is way beyond what humans can hear, it was really hard to believe that it was unable to reproduce enough high frequency.

Yes, there was considerable difference when bi-amped but it turns to worse. The tweeters not working at all.

I feel compelled to offer an apology for my bad review but Polk should have made it explicitly clear that RTi A5 are not bi-ampable or should not be bi-amped. Or at least, bi-amping them will not result in the improvement of sound.

It sounds like something may have been wrong here. The tweeters still should have been every bit as loud.

Did you make sure to remove the jumpers between the two pairs of binding posts when you had them bi-amped?

The fact that they have 5-way binding posts wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not they're bi-ampable. That just refers to the fact that they can accept 5 different connection methods.

Also, the speakers are most definitely bi-ampable. It's not as if all bi-amping is a bad thing. It's bi-amping with an AVR's surround back channels that is the problem. It's not really even bi-amping.

When you bi-amp with multiple external power amps...there can be some HUGE benefits.

Burningcoals

Igo wrote: »

I have the Sony ES receiver and your speakers are the incarnation of my RT800i speakers. I've been switching back and forth for for two months to prove the effect. I don't have room for a 7.1 configuration but I wanted to justify the purchase so I tried this sudo bi-amp. I have neighbors downstairs so I have to keep my sub way down. When I dedicated the rear surrounds to the bottom end/the lower binding post I very diffinitely notice a huge push in the low frequency areas when the music or movies demand it. I expect this is because more power is available for peak material. Also, when I play music with a lot of air in it, the low end string bass sections are much cleaner reproduced via the polk low frequency drivers than by the sub woofer. Lastly, because I must keep my sub woofer tamed, it is very easy to access this next fact; it doesn't take much examination. When I run the would be bi-amp configuration I have to kill the sub-woofer all together. There is that much more punch on the bottom end.
BTW, when I set this new outfit up, I set it up so that I could get to the back of the equipment so that I would be able to test some theories I've had running around in my head for years. I have an SPL meter and I'm gowing to prove the above mention findings with numbers here in the next couple weeks. Stay tuned. (OH, movies will sound OK, all my interest focus on 2 channel steroe)

On my Onkyo BI-Amping; the rears are used for the tweats and main LR are used for the low end; one day I mixed them up and the bass from my M70's was much louder, but I noticed the high were drowned out some. I am sure you have it wired correctly just make sure.

mystik610

I 'bi-amped' my RTi8's using the rear surrounds on the Onkyo 706, and honestly didn't notice a difference. Its makes sense too...the power ratings on most receiver measure PEAK power with 1 or 2 channels driven. ie my Onkyo 706 supposedly drives 90 watts of power...with 2 channels driven. Run a 5.1 set-up Add the other channels, and the power is divided amongst the other channels. Run a 7.1 set-up and use the rears to bi-amp the fronts, you further divide the amount of power driven into each channel.

By adding using the rear channels to bi-amp the fronts, you're driving two channels of power into each of the mains, but you're also dividing the internal amps available power amongst 2 extra channels. You'd essentially be netting the same amount of power in the mains.

Interestingly enough, my HK amp drives 100 watts per channel (10 more watts than the Onkyo), but the amp weights more than twice as much as the Onkyo receiver! I'm not bi-amping my RTi8's through the HK amp right now, but I think this thread has ispired me to give it a try. I'll run the low pass filter through the HK, and the high pass through the Onkyo. I like the analytical nature of the Onkyo Amp does for the tweets, and what the warm nature of the HK amp does for the mid-range. Maybe I can benefit from both by bi-amping

mystik610

I Bi-amped my RTi8's last night...ran the low pass filter through the HK, and ran the high pass through the Onkyo. It didn't yield any difference in sound quality from what I can tell. I don't personally think a bi-amped configuration is necessary for the RTi/RTiA line.

The biggest difference in sound quality that I've noticed is in adding the separate amp itself, whether I'm using a bi-amped set-up or not. Most receivers have over-rated power ratings. If you want to drastically improve the sound quality from your speakers, get a separate amp and feed them more clean power!

christo4

I hope I don't derail this thread, but I wonder what people think of simple bi-wiring. I have a pair of RTi8s that I just bought and thought they sounded great in normal config. I just bi-wired them to a modest receiver, and for some reason think they sound a little subdued. It could be due to the fact that the tweeter wire is a smaller gauge (higher number). What do you think--would the size of the speaker wire make a difference?

TouchOfEvil

christo4 wrote: »

I hope I don't derail this thread, but I wonder what people think of simple bi-wiring. I have a pair of RTi8s that I just bought and thought they sounded great in normal config. I just bi-wired them to a modest receiver, and for some reason think they sound a little subdued. It could be due to the fact that the tweeter wire is a smaller gauge (higher number). What do you think--would the size of the speaker wire make a difference?

Do you know the actual size of the wire?
Also did you bi-wire using the same channels or did you by amp them with 4 channels vs the original two?

christo4

TouchOfEvil wrote: »

Do you know the actual size of the wire?
Also did you bi-wire using the same channels or did you by amp them with 4 channels vs the original two?

The tweeters are about 16 gauge and the woofers are about 12-14. I can't be sure. The tweeter wire is also about 18" longer. They're amped on the same channels, with the speaker wires twisted around each other.