Carpocalypse: Ford mans up!
Comments
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1) The only reason Ford is "better off" than GM or Chrysler is they were smart enough to avail themselves to a line of credit before the credit markets dried up. In other words, GM and Chrysler are going to owe the government (provided they get gov't loans) while Ford owes someone else.
2) UAW workers are paid too much, yes. But the figures bandied about on this thread are misleading. They include the cost per hour of existing UAW folks PLUS all the UAW folks that are retired, etc. Can a UAW person pull down $100k per year? The answer is "yes" but you have to realize these are skilled trades people, electricians, pipe fitters, etc. And, by the way, they probably work 80-100 hours per week to do this. That's right, 12 hours per day, 7 days a week. Not a defender of the UAW here, I'm a salary guy myself but just wanted to point out the facts
3) I wasn't buying the "bankruptcy is not an option" argument myself. But frankly, why do you think GM's sales were down 41% in November? Sure it's the economy and stuff. But guess what, we do research and surveys and such and a huge reason folks did not close on GM vehicles was just the RUMOR of bankruptcy. So think of what happened if we actually filed for chapter 11. -
Same thing that happened to Chrysler when Lee took over?
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Plus 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
With the union's weight no plan will succeed long term.
Hear, hear! -
Do you folks really think the foreign auto makers will retool, in the case of war, to build tanks, planes, personnel carriers, amphibious vehicles, etc, etc? Do ya? If you do you're delusional.
It seems to me that they aren't asking for a grant, but a LOAN. Chrysler was able to repay their 1980's loan, that was set up for a 30 yr payback iirc, in like 10 years.
GM going under or bankrupt WILL screw the whole country, some a lot worse than others, but it WILL affect us all. I doubt very many will be affected in a positive manner.
You can **** and moan about how they should do this or that, but in the end, they are a very necessary part of the U.S.'s industrial complex and economy. I am as disappointed in them as anyone else, but I realize that without them we're up ****'s creek without a boat, much less a paddle."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Well, either we pay for their survival or we pay for their funeral. The funeral seems to be more expensive.
That's making the BIG assumption that a bailout will actually make the companies profitable and more bailouts won't be needed in the future. From everything that I've read, I'm just not buying the bill of goods.Do you folks really think the foreign auto makers will retool, in the case of war, to build tanks, planes, personnel carriers, amphibious vehicles, etc, etc? Do ya? If you do you're delusional.
Ok, I've seen this argument over and over again. I want to know if there is any truth to it. We've been at war for over 7 years now. Where the hell are we getting our tanks/planes/missiles/etc. from? I seriously don't know, but I've yet to hear any hard proof of a factory somewhere churning out F-150's next to tanks and bombers. -
There was a time when unions were necessary....Henry Ford would have kept paying his workers squat if it weren't for unions. Most of his workers couldn't even afford to buy what they were building. Corruption and greed ruined the unions. They screwed themselves.
Did you just make that up?
I had thought Henry Ford paid his workers well, hoping that they could buy the products they were helping to make. Quite the opposite of what you just said. -
Nice plans by the Big 3. So what happens to them in 2012 or 2013 when those plans have failed? What or where is our 34 billion then? Down the drain?
Congress should approve the 34 billion and let them fail. Take the 34 B and apply that money to unemployment for the hardest hit areas. A new car company will arise from the ashes with management that knows how and what people want to buy. This new company will hire a lot of the line workers who were displaced by the failure of the Big 3.
I think even considering that the Big 3 would retool in a time of war is a dream. We do not have the industrial might we had in the 40's. In the 40's when auto production was turned to war production, the weapons were of a very basic design that allowed them to be produced in staggering numbers. The complexity of modern weapons would not allow such rapid production. The production of combat aircraft at tops today is about 5 aircraft per month and in some cases 5 per year. Future wars will not require the staggering numbers of weapons required during WWII. Our concern with "collateral damage" limits how many and where bombs will be dropped. The days mass bombings over civilians is over.
Gordon2 Channel -
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I think even considering that the Big 3 would retool in a time of war is a dream. We do not have the industrial might we had in the 40's. In the 40's when auto production was turned to war production, the weapons were of a very basic design that allowed them to be produced in staggering numbers. The complexity of modern weapons would not allow such rapid production. The production of combat aircraft at tops today is about 5 aircraft per month and in some cases 5 per year. Future wars will not require the staggering numbers of weapons required during WWII. Our concern with "collateral damage" limits how many and where bombs will be dropped. The days mass bombings over civilians is over.
Gordon
Exactly. I can't imagine a factory that pops out pickups and minivans suddenly switching to smart missiles and fighter jets. It just doesn't make any sense. -
Ok, I've seen this argument over and over again. I want to know if there is any truth to it. We've been at war for over 7 years now. Where the hell are we getting our tanks/planes/missiles/etc. from? I seriously don't know, but I've yet to hear any hard proof of a factory somewhere churning out F-150's next to tanks and bombers.
That's because were not fighting a country like say....Russia or China. I'd say that we've lost very little combat vehicles, of any kind, in Iraq and Afghanistan. Especially since the war has been going on, "officially" for what over 6 years now. We're not fighting someone with a real Air Force, Navy or armored Army. We're fighting terrorist with pipebombs and IEDs."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Did you just make that up?
I had thought Henry Ford paid his workers well, hoping that they could buy the products they were helping to make. Quite the opposite of what you just said.
I wonder why they joined a union then since conditions were so good. Ford might have been the best of them, but conditions were all that great. I just used his name, because I can't recall who ran GM, Chrysler and the rest at the time. Anyway, that doesn't mean that the unions didn't shoot themselves in the foot."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
That's because were not fighting a country like say....Russia or China. I'd say that we've lost very little combat vehicles, of any kind, in Iraq and Afghanistan. Especially since the war has been going on, "officially" for what over 6 years now. We're not fighting someone with a real Air Force, Navy or armored Army. We're fighting terrorist with pipebombs and IEDs.
And fighting someone like Russia or China would necessitate a return to WWII fighting technology and tactics?
Seriously, can you tell me any auto factory has even the slightest ability to produce a modern jet fighter? -
It has nothing to do with WWII tech or tactics. Do a little research...who do you think produces a huge precentage of the Army's vehicles..Hummers, LAVs, etc.....GM."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Whatever... if we ever get into a full scale conflict with Russia or China, building Hummers will be the last of our problems.
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Yeah, whatever. Tell that to the troops."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Tell what to the troops? That they have my full support? I grew up on military bases and have relatives in the service. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Just because I believe a hypothetical conflict with another super power won't involve a much of a ground war doesn't mean I don't support our troops. -
Should have said the troops that rely on such vehicles, not just Hummers, for their survival. I think GM still builds tanks, too."SOME PEOPLE CALL ME MAURICE,
CAUSE I SPEAK OF THE POMPITIOUS OF LOVE" -
Strong words, strong actions but honestly not really out of reach. More like quite attainable in the time frame specified. I knew Ford was doing better than the other two but I didn't know they were doing that good. Somebody over there seems to be doing something right if they are that confident in their numbers.
Somehow though, it might not work. If bumbling GM fails, Ford is gonna hurt, bad. It might send them right over the edge again. But if Ford is asking for $9 billion as a "just in case" safety net. But they have plans to dump $14 billion of their own money in to their U.S. operations. Basically, what that means is that Ford doesn't think they need the money but want the access to be able to protect themselves and their suppliers because they have zero confidence in GM or Chrysler.
This is going to be interesting. Very interesting.
Oh and Alan Mulally is driving a Ford Escape Hybrid to Washington the next week in lieu of plane travel.
So, you ready to roll the dice and buy some Ford stock now that it's dirt cheap? I asked my know-it-all brother-in-law who works for GMAC last week what, in his opinion was going to happen, what should happen.
He said he favored bankruptcy for all 3, but he was sure it would be business as usual with a no-strings bailout. I asked him if that was the case, was he putting his $ where his mouth was and buying GM stock?
Hell no!
