I want to get more mid bass punch out of my RTi10

jmuma2k

I am looking at increasing the mid bass punch in my system. My current equipment is as follows;

(2) RTi10 (crossed over at 60)
(1) CSi5 (crossed over at 80)
(4) FXi3 (crossed over at 80)
(1) SVS PB12-NSD (crossed over at 80)

Denon 2807 7ch (110w/ch)
Audiosource 2ch (150w/ch)

I am running the RTi10's with the Audiosource amp right now with everything else being run off the Denon. Once I hooked up the Audiosource to the RTi10's I noticed a big difference. What I am trying to do is add more mid bass 50-100hz punch. I could buy the HSU MBM-12 sub, however I am wondering if I get a new quality 250w/ch amp for my RTi10s will I see a decent increase in punch for HT purposes? Is there anyone who upgraded from receiver to a 200+w on the Rti10s? I listen at around -8 to -12 levels with everything calibrated. Any incite would be great!

leroyjr1

You are not going to get 50hz -100hz if you have them crossed at 60hz. You're only going to get so much bass out of those (2)7inch woofers. I have my fronts crossed at 80hz and my sub is doing the rest , and it sounds good.

What do you have your sub crossed at?

For HT I would cross all your speakers at 80hz and let the sub handle everthing below that. If your not happy with the bass output I would look into a better sub or another one. What size is your room.

KrazyMofo24

My Rti10's didn't produce very much bass when I ran it on my h/k 335 receiver however on an adcom gfa545 amp made a considerable difference on the midbass especially in movies.

jmuma2k

What if I cross them over at 40hz? Also I realize I will only get so much out of them, however if I go from a decent 150w to a quality 250w amp will I get a noticed increase? I know I saw a noticeable increase from just running them of the Denon.

edit: Sub is at 80hz.

edit: Sorry for ignorance, what is your gfa545 rated at?

Josh

leroyjr1

jmuma2k wrote: »

What if I cross them over at 40hz? Also I realize I will only get so much out of them, however if I go from a decent 150w to a quality 250w amp will I get a noticed increase? I know I saw a noticeable increase from just running them of the Denon.

edit: Sub is at 80hz.

edit: Sorry for ignorance, what is your gfa545 rated at?

Josh

GFA 545 rated at 100watts@ 8 ohms
150 watts@ 4 ohms

The 545 is more than enough for those RTI 10's. You will not noticed that much or a difference adding more power.

leroyjr1

Try setting the fronts ,center and surrounds to 80hz and the sub at 80hz and see how that sounds.

jmuma2k

Then why do a lot of people (including polk support) say that RTi10s really open up with 200-300w. Guess I am just confused. Is there anyone that has went from powering with just a receiver to a large amp?

I tried doing that and it sounded good, however setting the mains to 60 seemed to give me a little more punch and fuller sound field.

leroyjr1

jmuma2k wrote: »

Then why do a lot of people (including polk support) say that RTi10s really open up with 200-300w. Guess I am just confused. Is there anyone that has went from powering with just a receiver to a large amp?

With my RTIA9's I went from a Onkyo 805 avr to a adcom 545II/555II.
I noticed a big difference from the avr to the 545II but a very small difference from the 545 to the 555.

The 545 is rated at 100 watts @ 8ohms and the 555 is rated at 200 watts @ 8ohms. I wouldn't get to hung up on watt ratings. I think you may notice a bigger difference between 100 watts and 200watts if you had a speaker that was not very effecient and hard to push. The rti 10 are easy to push

ben62670

leroyjr1 wrote: »

With my RTIA9's I went from a Onkyo 805 avr to a adcom 545II/555II.
I noticed a big difference from the avr to the 545II but a very small difference from the 545 to the 555.

The 545 is rated at 100 watts @ 8ohms and the 555 is rated at 200 watts @ 8ohms. I wouldn't get to hung up on watt ratings. I think you may notice a bigger difference between 100 watts and 200watts if you had a speaker that was not very effecient and hard to push. The rti 10 are easy to push

I'll second that.

ShinAce

'Punch' is usually in the 100-150Hz range.

I don't expect that playing with the sub will help much. The woofers in the towers are the culprit.

Ron Temple

Try running them large...also, experiment with a 60hz cut on the sub, LFE + mains in your BM settings. Might be too fat, but might not...it depends on your room. The Audiosource amp probably doesn't have the bass punch of the Adcom, but the difference between 150 watts and 200 is 1db of headroom (not all amps being equal of course).

kuntasensei

jmuma2k wrote: »

I am looking at increasing the mid bass punch in my system. My current equipment is as follows;

(2) RTi10 (crossed over at 60)
(1) CSi5 (crossed over at 80)
(4) FXi3 (crossed over at 80)
(1) SVS PB12-NSD (crossed over at 80)

Denon 2807 7ch (110w/ch)
Audiosource 2ch (150w/ch)

I am running the RTi10's with the Audiosource amp right now with everything else being run off the Denon. Once I hooked up the Audiosource to the RTi10's I noticed a big difference. What I am trying to do is add more mid bass 50-100hz punch. I could buy the HSU MBM-12 sub, however I am wondering if I get a new quality 250w/ch amp for my RTi10s will I see a decent increase in punch for HT purposes? Is there anyone who upgraded from receiver to a 200+w on the Rti10s? I listen at around -8 to -12 levels with everything calibrated. Any incite would be great!

Crazy question: If you're crossing the other channels over at 60 and 80, why are you using the subwoofer crossover AT ALL? If you're talking about the crossover on the subwoofer itself, you're cascading the AVR's crossovers with the active crossover on the subwoofer, causing a reduction in sound from roughly 60-100Hz.

From the manual for your SVS:

Crossover Frequency. If you use your AVR’s internal crossover to manage bass frequencies (highly recommended), the setting of this knob on your SVS sub is irrelevant. (Note: Use the sub’s crossover “Enable/Disable” switch discussed below to take advantage of this con-figuration.)

Flip the switch to DISABLE to get that crossover out of the way. The added benefit is that active crossovers can cause delay in the signal chain, throwing off the proper phase/delay setting on your AVR. If you're using your AVR's Audyssey MultEQ XT to measure the acoustic distance, it corrects for delays in the signal chain accordingly (which is often why detected distance doesn't match actual physical distance with Audyssey, among other things).

If you were talking about the LFE filter on your Denon, change it to 120Hz so you aren't cutting off the top end of the LFE channel. THX conceits aside, there is significant information above 80Hz in the LFE channel that affects the perceived tone of the sound (primarily due to the harmonics of sound placed in the LFE channel). The LFE channel is already brickwall filtered at 120Hz by its nature (which is why its the .1 channel - it only contains 1/10th of the full bandwidth of the other channels), so you want to let everything in that channel reach your subwoofer for accurate reproduction.

Also, the ideal crossover point for your RTi10s would be near 50Hz (derived by allowing a half-octave transition above the speaker's lower -3dB point). 60Hz is a good setting for those speakers, but if you have 50 as an option you might try it. Keep in mind that the lower you go with the crossover, the more power you'll require to cleanly drive the speaker. In other words, the added reproduction of bass in the 50Hz region may sound better, but at high levels may negatively affect the clarity of the speaker since you're decreasing available amp headroom with a lower crossover.

Kex

kuntasensei wrote: »

... Also, the ideal crossover point for your RTi10s would be near 50Hz (derived by allowing a half-octave transition above the speaker's lower -3dB point). 60Hz is a good setting for those speakers, but if you have 50 as an option you might try it. Keep in mind that the lower you go with the crossover, the more power you'll require to cleanly drive the speaker. In other words, the added reproduction of bass in the 50Hz region may sound better, but at high levels may negatively affect the clarity of the speaker since you're decreasing available amp headroom with a lower crossover.

Wow! I think I'm in admiration ... or does that make a lot of sense?!

jmuma2k

kuntasensei,

My appologies on the confusion. I do not have the cross over enabled on the sub. I have the LFE filter set to 80hz. Also I have tried Audyssey, but have not liked the the results so far. Sound seems better at this point with the EQ off.

I am going to set the LFE filter to 120hz. Also I am going to try and run the Audyssey setup again from all 6 positions instead of the 4 I tried. I am going to leave the RTi10's at 60 right now, my Denon only does 40, 60, 80, etc.

One more question. So if I increase the available power going to the RTi10 by getting a more powerful 250w cleaning running able such as the Emotiva XPA-2 I should possibly be able to run those at 40hz, which would provide me with a bit more mid bass, giving me more punch effect?

Thank you very much for your help. Thanks to everyone else also.

-Josh

jmuma2k

Ron Temple wrote: »

Try running them large...also, experiment with a 60hz cut on the sub, LFE + mains in your BM settings. Might be too fat, but might not...it depends on your room. The Audiosource amp probably doesn't have the bass punch of the Adcom, but the difference between 150 watts and 200 is 1db of headroom (not all amps being equal of course).

Maybe I am confused with the 150w vs 250w. I realize that the headroom gain is minimal, however I am not looking and turning up my volume more. I am looking at providing more clean power to the 7" woofers at key moments in a movie when they require it. This should allow them to produce more accurat tighter "punch" when the demand is there. Am I missing something here?

ben62670

Seeing these are rather large for an AVR setting them at anything below 80hz uses up much more current. This will muddy out the bass punch. The punch reaches all the way up to 300hz, but like ShinAce has said most of it is in the 100-150hz region. I personally think it goes a little lower, but that hit/punch is not centered on deep bass. Please don't take this like I think subs don't hit hard. Not what I am saying. One thing I love about Adcom's is they hit real hard, fast, and tight.
Ben

leroyjr1

Also try playing around with speaker placement

leroyjr1

Do a seach on rti 10's their have been alot of threads about lack of bass

ben62670

leroyjr1 wrote: »

Do a seach on rti 10's their have been alot of threads about lack of bass

I bet most of those threads you will find a lack of external amplification;)
Ben

curved

Maybe we should trade - I feel like I have too much Although it was ridiculous how much the 555 made on my 8's

I think I would try a different amp - like that Emo:D

kuntasensei

jmuma2k wrote: »

Also I have tried Audyssey, but have not liked the the results so far. Sound seems better at this point with the EQ off.

Audyssey is very much a garbage in/garbage out proposition. If you don't do it correctly (or have serious acoustic issues with the room), the results will not be good. Make sure you are using a tripod so you can put the mic at ear level. They're cheap, and are an absolute must for running Audyssey because placing the mic in the seats or holding it creates problems with Audyssey's analysis (i.e. absorption of sound by your seating/body, low frequency noise from you holding it, etc.). Once you have it on a tripod, do all available positions, making sure that the mic capsule is slightly above the top of your seating. I recommend the following pattern on your main seating:

6x4x5 - 2-3 feet in front of positions 1-3.
3x1x2 - On couch, 1 being centered with center channel.

The positions to the sides of center should be about 2-3 feet to the left and right from 1 and 4, but make sure that you keep the mic within the general spread of your left and right mains at all times. It might help to tow the mains in toward center slightly. Visualize a 45 degree cone of sound coming from your speaker, then aim the speaker so that cone encompasses the entire listening area across its width. If your receiver lets you do 8 positions, place 7 and 8 with the tripod flush against the couch, in between 6x4 and 4x5. The reason you're doing positions 4-6 further into the room is to give Audyssey data on the acoustics further from room boundaries so it can give a more generalized equalization for the room. This is especially important for bass. Similarly, if your seating is flush against your back wall, pull it slightly into the room; at least 8-12 inches if you can get away with it. This will minimize boundary gain and let you hear more of the first impulse response (and greatly increase the chances of Audyssey getting the subwoofer in phase with the other speakers).

After you run Audyssey, if it sounds dull to you, you should try the different curve modes. The Denons should let you select whether you use the Audyssey curve (which I believe is the default, and does a slight rolloff of highs similar to THX that you may not like), a flat curve (which is probably what you'll want for music), or a curve to make the other speakers match the response of your mains. That said, my Onkyo only lets you use the Audyssey curve, and after careful setup, I'm perfectly fine with the sound I get from it. Since you should have the option, flat mode should give you all the benefits of Audyssey's subwoofer equalization without rolling off the highs.

If you have any other questions about proper Audyssey setup, let me know.

Early B.

Buy a better amp. Problem solved.

jmuma2k

kuntasensei wrote: »

If you have any other questions about proper Audyssey setup, let me know.

Thank you for the help. I will try your suggestions when setting up Audyssey. I have been using a tripod and adjusting it to hear level when sitting on the couch. I took 3 position readings, but will do 6 (max) this weekend.

I have attached a .jpg of room layout. I know it is not the most ideal but this is what I have to work with. The stairs have a half wall with rails, so it opens up, however I do close the door at the tops of the stairs.

blue=speakers
green=TV
red=furniture

-Josh

MADGSF

FWIW I run my RTi-10s full range/large and am very happy with the bass they put out. As far as amps go I think current and damping is more important than watts when it comes to bass. I started with 200 as I got a good deal on my amp and wanted to try it out and I have not regreted that purchase.

kuntasensei

Looking at your layout diagram, I'd definitely tow those speakers in toward center a bit. This will not only put more of the listening position closer to the center axis of the speaker (where the sound is best), it will also help alleviate sidewall reflections that could muddy up the sound (especially with your right main). Basically, visualize a 45 degree cone of sound coming from the speaker... then aim the speaker so your listening position is engulfed in that cone. For reflection points, imagine that same cone to see where on the side wall your reflection point is (like you're lining up a bank shot in pool). Ideally, you want to treat the wall where that reflection point is (drapes, acoustic panels, etc.). If you can't, putting the reflection point near or beyond your listening position on the side wall will delay the reflected sound enough to minimize its effect. Audyssey's rolloff of the high end in the Audyssey curve is meant to help cut the frequencies most responsible for directional reflections, as well as compensate for playing back digital soundtracks mixed for a large space in your small room.

Re-run Audyssey and only place the mic on the section of couch parallel to your TV for positions 1-3, then do 4-6 the way I showed you before.

jmuma2k

kuntasensei wrote: »

Looking at your layout diagram, I'd definitely tow those speakers in toward center a bit. This will not only put more of the listening position closer to the center axis of the speaker (where the sound is best), it will also help alleviate sidewall reflections that could muddy up the sound (especially with your right main). Basically, visualize a 45 degree cone of sound coming from the speaker... then aim the speaker so your listening position is engulfed in that cone. For reflection points, imagine that same cone to see where on the side wall your reflection point is (like you're lining up a bank shot in pool). Ideally, you want to treat the wall where that reflection point is (drapes, acoustic panels, etc.). If you can't, putting the reflection point near or beyond your listening position on the side wall will delay the reflected sound enough to minimize its effect. Audyssey's rolloff of the high end in the Audyssey curve is meant to help cut the frequencies most responsible for directional reflections, as well as compensate for playing back digital soundtracks mixed for a large space in your small room.

Re-run Audyssey and only place the mic on the section of couch parallel to your TV for positions 1-3, then do 4-6 the way I showed you before.

I redid Audyssey again like you suggested. Much better results, I just got done watching The Strangers tonight with my wife. First thing I noticed is that the RTis seems less harsh during the high points. Also noticed that the sub seemed to be performing better. I did noticed that I had to go and change the mains and center from large to small. I also changed the crossover points to RTi10=60hz, CSi5=60hz, FXi3=80hz, Sub cut off is at 120hz. Now I just have to tear down the drop ceiling and either support it better or drywall, the sub make it rattle during some scenes.

Regarding room treatment. I would like to add some wall treament, per the drawing above what would be the most obvious place to start? I also toed the mains in per your suggestion and it seems to have made a difference, and actaully made the distance measurements more accurate during calibration.

Thanks for all of your help.

Josh

kuntasensei

No problem. Glad I could help.

As for wall treatment, you're really just trying to break up reflections or minimize their effect. However, aesthetics plays a role as well. Do a search for acoustic panels and you should find information on that route. Sometimes, you can also get away with using drapery. How much you treat the room mostly depends on how crazy you want to get with it. As far as where to place it, you'll likely have to experiment. A good start is to visualize the sound hitting the wall as if you were playing pool, like you're hitting a bank shot. From your seat, visualize at what point on the wall you would have to hit to bank a ball into the speaker. If you want to get more specific, have someone slide a mirror along the wall until you can see the speaker from your main seat, then treat that point.

SivaNevets

this is a wonderful post. bump

POIDOG

kuntasensei wrote: »

. THX conceits aside, there is significant information above 80Hz in the LFE channel that affects the perceived tone of the sound (primarily due to the harmonics of sound placed in the LFE channel). The LFE channel is already brickwall filtered at 120Hz by its nature (which is why its the .1 channel - it only contains 1/10th of the full bandwidth of the other channels), so you want to let everything in that channel reach your subwoofer for accurate reproduction.

:eek:Hmm, I tried this tonight with a new set of LSi9's. I set the crossover at
100 from 80... and I believe you have a valid point. Case in point, I played Crosby-Nash "Another Stoney Evening". Now I know the 9's are detailed, but the crossover changed the whole game. By the way this CD is an excellent live set with a lot of audience interaction. Tomorrow I'll try something bass heavy to see if I feel the same.

kuntasensei

POIDOG wrote: »

:eek:Hmm, I tried this tonight with a new set of LSi9's. I set the crossover at
100 from 80... and I believe you have a valid point. Case in point, I played Crosby-Nash "Another Stoney Evening". Now I know the 9's are detailed, but the crossover changed the whole game. By the way this CD is an excellent live set with a lot of audience interaction. Tomorrow I'll try something bass heavy to see if I feel the same.

I was actually talking about the low pass of the LFE channel in what you quoted, which would have zero effect on your LSi9s for digital surround unless you're running without a subwoofer. LPF of LFE only affects the LFE channel's output to your sub, NOT the redirected bass from your other channels. You adjust the transition of redirected bass from speaker to sub using the crossover settings for each channel. LPF of LFE should ALWAYS be set to 120Hz unless you have a THX-spec'd sub designed for the THX 80Hz LPF of LFE.

Also, since CDs do not have an LFE track (only DD, DTS, etc.), LPF of LFE has zero effect on the sound quality of CDs.

kuntasensei

Also, 100Hz gives you a full octave transition above the -3dB point of those LSi9s, which would definitely prevent any kind of frequency gaps caused by the speaker's natural rolloff as it transitions to the subwoofer. That said, the common knowledge is that any crossover above 80Hz has the potential to cause localization of the subwoofer (i.e. you can hear the bass coming from the location of the sub instead of from the speaker). Using the half-octave rule above, 80Hz really isn't a bad crossover to use on the LSi9, especially since you'll get some extension below that in your room (whereas the specs are anechoic). Keep in mind, however, that the LSi series really demands external amplification that is 4 ohm stable to sound its best, so any advantage you may be hearing by setting the crossover to 100Hz is likely just because you're alleviating the power it takes to produce the lower bass, giving it more headroom for mids and highs.