Fascinating Comparison: LSi's Totem, & Era

markmarc

Right now in my house I have 3 fine sets of monitors, the LSi9's, Totem Rainmakers, and the Era D5's. Going to be spending some time this weekend comparing all three using an Adcom speaker selector, to get some immediate sonic differences.

curved

Very nice....and take some pics.

sucks2beme

markmarc wrote: »

Right now in my house I have 3 fine sets of monitors, the LSi9's, Totem Rainmakers, and the Era D5's. Going to be spending some time this weekend comparing all three using an Adcom speaker selector, to get some immediate sonic differences.

Sounds like time well spent to me!

phipiper10

Can't wait to hear what you think.

mantis

I love these things.

Dan

lanion

Totems image like crazy, but do lack the oomph of LSis...

markmarc

Initial Impressions:
While waiting for a pair of stands for the Era D5's, In listening to the Rainmakers and LSi9's a few things are instantly obvious. The Rainmakers highs are a good octave higher. The 9's have a smokey textured sound, with more depth.

This is too much fun!

janmike

Sounds like a great comparison. It would have been nice to also throw in a pair of ProAc ISC's into the mix.

markmarc

Here is the setup. Each speaker will get a turn on each set of stands. They will get to perform with both the Onix SP3 tube amp, and the modified PS Audio Trio C-100. Speaker wire is just Home Depot 12 gauge since I'm using the Adcom switch box. I realize this isn't perfect, but it's still fun.

Sami

markmarc wrote: »

I realize this isn't perfect, but it's still fun.

What's wrong with the setup? You don't get to mix electronics to hear which matches with what speaker but still the speaker itself is the main component of the system (it's not like you're feeding them with garbage electronics).

Are you going to experiment with placement? I know that the LSi's are very picky about placement when it comes to getting the best sound out of them, no experience with the others. Even if you're not you should still get to hear the major differences between the speakers.

Hilbert

markmarc wrote: »

Here is the setup. Each speaker will get a turn on each set of stands. They will get to perform with both the Onix SP3 tube amp, and the modified PS Audio Trio C-100. Speaker wire is just Home Depot 12 gauge since I'm using the Adcom switch box. I realize this isn't perfect, but it's still fun.

Looking forward to the review too but ... are the L and R LSi 9s reversed in the picture?

sucks2beme

I really want to see how the 38 WPC tubes run the 86db and 87db
Rainmakers and LSI9's. I'm looking at a good deal on some Hale
Revelation Ones(86db). Ive got 50 WPC with the ARC. Times like this
I wish it was 100wpc.

markmarc

Hilbert:
I spotted that while taking the pic, but the batteries died so I couldn't retake it! :eek:

Sucks:
The Onix has absolutely no problem powering the LSi's, Rainmakers, or even the 82db Mark & Daniels. I make the point all the time that it's all about quality power, not quantity. I've heard a 125wpc crap amp from Fry's crumble trying to power the LSi's.

sucks2beme

markmarc wrote: »

Hilbert:
I spotted that while taking the pic, but the batteries died so I couldn't retake it! :eek:

Sucks:
The Onix has absolutely no problem powering the LSi's, Rainmakers, or even the 82db Mark & Daniels. I make the point all the time that it's all about quality power, not quantity. I've heard a 125wpc crap amp from Fry's crumble trying to power the LSi's.

My current set of speakers, GNP's, are 16 ohm nominal. The Rotel RB980
Doesn't like it at all, sounding quite lifeless. The lower wattage ARC with
a 16 ohm transformer tap does a much better job. It still needs some
volume to come alive. Amp/speaker matching can really be a pain.
As far as I know, tube amps with a transformer output are always at their
rated value, unlike a SS amp that go up at 4 ohms, and down in rated power
at 16 ohms

markmarc

Sucks:
You've hit the nail on the head, equipment matching is critical. ICE amps sound great on some speakers and mediocre on others. It's another reason to support independent local dealers. They understand and will work with customers on in-home tryouts.

markmarc

Did some more listening last night using a modded PS Audio Trio c-100 int. amp (class d ICE). The Totem Rainmakers were a hair too bright not surprisingly given the linearity and dryness that chip amps offer. The Era D5's on the other hand matched up quite well, I attribute it to their mantra of not embellishing the signal. The LSi9's didn't do as well with the upper registars as I had expected. they will all get another turn with that amp tonight.

AsSiMiLaTeD

The Rainmakers highs are a good octave higher

What does that mean exactly? Are you using the term 'octave' loosely, or am I to interpret that as meaning that the Totems can play notes higher up that the LSi cannot play, and are you using instruments or a dog to detect those notes?

dorokusai

I wouldn't call it fascinating but that's kinda neat. ICE amps stink. Totem bright? Wow.

zingo

markmarc wrote: »

I make the point all the time that it's all about quality power, not quantity.

This is true to a point, and remember that tube and SS amps are horses of a different color. Tubes output higher voltage, where as SS output higher current. This makes a huge difference when it comes to less efficient speakers.

Plus, when you are dealing with a low wattage number and driving the amp into distortion, tubes distort in even harmonics where as SS distorts in odd harmonics. The even harmonics coming out as pleasing to the ear unlike the odd ones and thus the same amount of power may be more pleasing to the ear.

markmarc

Assim:
The voicing of the upper frequencies is tuned lower in the LSi9's. In addition, as you know from experience with both your rigs Rainmakers plays brighter. Tonight, if I have extra time I'm going to hook the Storm sub up with the rainmakers and see how it does against the LSi9's. I'm looking for additional richness more than bottom slam.

markmarc

It took a month, but I finally had some time to run the Rainmakers and the LSi9's with the Onix SP3 tube amp. The Rainmakers came to life, unlike when they were being played with the modded PS Audio chip amp. Far more musical and detailed. bass response lagged behind the LSi9's only slightly. The 9's also like the tube amp. But the star of this round was the Rainmakers, the high end is very airy and gives of a wider soundstage than the LSi9's. Imaging, always a forte of Totem products didn't disappoint.

The LSi9's do better in the lower mids, which I believe is due to their cabinet depth and weight. Bass response favors the 9's as well, but not as much as I expected. Attribute it to bringing out both speakers an additional foot from the back wall. The Rainmakers response improved quite a bit. The shocker for me is that in comparing the treble frequencies, the LSi9's sound too restrained in all honesty. I'm beginning to wonder if they need a super tweeter. i recognized the clarity that the Vifa tweeter offers cuts down on hissing and ringing, but compared to the Rockets which use the same tweeter, I think the lease is too tight on the LSi9 Vifa tweeter.

I did hook up the totem Storm subwoofer to play with both speaker pairs. Not surprising, the sub played nicer with the Rainmakers. The richness in sonics was very apparent. Their was a nice bump in bass frequencies with the LSi9, but that was the only noticeable improvement.

megasat16

markmarc wrote: »

It took a month, but I finally had some time to run the Rainmakers and the LSi9's with the Onix SP3 tube amp. The Rainmakers came to life, unlike when they were being played with the modded PS Audio chip amp. Far more musical and detailed. bass response lagged behind the LSi9's only slightly. The 9's also like the tube amp. But the star of this round was the Rainmakers, the high end is very airy and gives of a wider soundstage than the LSi9's. Imaging, always a forte of Totem products didn't disappoint.

The LSi9's do better in the lower mids, which I believe is due to their cabinet depth and weight. Bass response favors the 9's as well, but not as much as I expected. Attribute it to bringing out both speakers an additional foot from the back wall. The Rainmakers response improved quite a bit. The shocker for me is that in comparing the treble frequencies, the LSi9's sound too restrained in all honesty. I'm beginning to wonder if they need a super tweeter. i recognized the clarity that the Vifa tweeter offers cuts down on hissing and ringing, but compared to the Rockets which use the same tweeter, I think the lease is too tight on the LSi9 Vifa tweeter.

I did hook up the totem Storm subwoofer to play with both speaker pairs. Not surprising, the sub played nicer with the Rainmakers. The richness in sonics was very apparent. Their was a nice bump in bass frequencies with the LSi9, but that was the only noticeable improvement.

I think the tube amp brings some hiss (harsh) to all 3 speakers under the scope and opens up the rainmaker soundstage. A smooth harshness is what's matter sometimes.

I have to agree that all LSi sounds somewhat laid back with a little restraint on the higher notes, it's not a bad thing if you don't want too forward and bright sound. But sometimes it's a necessity to have a little bit of harshness in the sound to be more life-like and LSis doesn't seem to have this ability. My walk around is to use a pair of Ribbon (top mounted) in conjunction with the LSis for 2 channel critical listening. Super Tweeter may be too harsh for the LSis. Anyone used this one before?

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8291

TitaniumMan

John Atkinson's measurements reveal the source of the Rainmaker top end "magic."

http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/1104totem/index3.html

markmarc

Titanium:
I now remember JA's specific comments. I wonder if the resonances are due to the lack of a horizontal brace in the cabinet as it it in the size range where manufacturers go without. I'll have to take out a driver when I get home and check. If my speculation is true, I wonder if some additional dampening material would lesson the treble slightly. But then again, Vince Bruzzesi has one of the truly great ears in audio.

mantis

So what speaker did you like the best??? I prefer the Totems out of your group there.

dkg999

My initial nod would go to the Totems also, fantastic speakers. I've also spent some time at Audio-Video Logic in Des Moines IA listening to the ERA, and they seem to be a very close second to the Totems. I've never had the opportunity to hear the Totems and ERA's in the same room, that would be cool!

To me, and I realize this will be controversial, the LSi9's are voiced for HT and are a compromise for music. The Totem's and ERA's seem to be voiced for 2 ch music reproduction. Not sure this is entirely an apples-to-apples comparison.

And BTW, I own LSi9's and love them in my HT! The one and only time I was impressed with them for 2 ch music was a setup that Matt Polk had. They sounded very good there.

markmarc

Mantis:
Good question, and it depends on amplification. So far with class d, I prefer the LSi9's. With tubes the Rainmakers. I still need to spend some time with my solid state amp.

As for the ERA D5's, they are a fine speaker and for being the smallest, they do very well for themselves. They have the smallest soundstage, but are the most even across the spectrum. I prefer them in smaller environments, and due to their lack of midrange bloom they make for a fine HT speaker IMHO.

mantis

Cool marc,

But dkg999 I don't know if the Lsi9's are voiced for HT first. Did you learn that somewhere or do you think that thats what they where designed for?

When I owned the Lsi9's, I felt they where very strong in music and movies alike. I would own them again, great speakers.

Systems

markmarc wrote: »

Titanium:
If my speculation is true, I wonder if some additional dampening material would lesson the treble slightly.

Adding damping material to the cabinet interior will have no effect on the treble as dome tweeters have sealed backs so they do not radiate rearward into the cabinet.Adding damping material will reduce midrange reflections however.

dkg999

Mantis - no insider info at all! Totally based on my subjective evaluation. I have LSi9's setting here in my living room for HT, and can basically switch the speaker cables out of the backs of my Magnepan's and use the LSi9's for stereo/music. I've always thought the LSi9's were a great HT speaker, but thought they sounded compromised for stereo/music. This is confirmed (solely in my opinion) as I have had the opportunity to experiment with them live and in person. Love them for HT, but for the same money there are many other speakers I would buy for stereo/music.

YMMV and my ears are probably all screwed up!

FYI - If I had to do stereo/music with the LSi series, it would be LSi7's with a good sub.

McLoki

Doug - I wonder if your opinon will change with a crossover upgrade??