Dynamic Power Output?? what does this mean exactly??

faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
edited January 2003 in Electronics
Ok i see on receiver specs, my subwoofer specs, and i want to know what it really means?? I think it means what the "most" the amp will do at all frequencies, or full volume.. or somewhere on those lines, ok my psw404 says
Power Output 200 watts Continuous Average Output
Dynamic Power Output 450 watts
what does this mean?? Thanks guys i know i will get a great answer to this
MY HT RIG:
Sherwood p-965
Sherwood sd871 dvd
Rotel 1075 amp x5
LSI15 mains
LsiC center
LSIfx surround backs
Lsi7 side surrounds
SVS pb12/plus2


2 Channel Rig:

nad 1020 Pre-amp
Rotel 1080 stereo amp
Polk sda 2B
kenwood grunt Tuner
realistic lab 450 TT
Signal cable IC
Post edited by faster100 on
«1

Comments

  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    Think of dynamic as an impulse or a real sharp sound that does not last long.

    Continuous is just that... continuous, a long lasting load on the amp before you trash the sucker. Continuous and RMS are 1 in the same.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    Great answer!! Thanks buddy... I now know why my sub popped the other night, full volume on sub and very high on receiver... dang it it still sounded clear.. I get no thrills from high volume and distortion so i don't do it, it was clear until i heard the sub bottom out and by then it was to late.. for the record i keep the sub amp on about 11-12 O clock, I was showing off to my sister and her new Boyfriend. Of course....
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    do you have an SPL meter? if not its really worth it!
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    yes i have one, Its all calibrated corerectly.. Like i said i was showing off and turned up the sub volume, I also had the bass limiter on and it still popped.. I will mess with it again this week and recalibrate it as its a new replacement sub now.. CC gave me a new one, Hey when i go to the bass mang. limiter on the osd of my receiver it lets me keep turning the sub out volume until it distorts, well should i use the spl to set the limiter per' the spl meter to 80 db or what ever i want it at??
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    zero out your receiver and if you reference to 85dB then use the volume control to reach your level to about 11or12 Oclock. At that point I will typically start bumping up the receiver to reach my levels.

    Hope this helps. The Doc has put out some real good info on Bass Management and I rely on his posts for my learning.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • SystemsSystems Posts: 14,998
    edited January 2003
    Assuming (and I realize you shouldn't assume, but this is a hypothetical) that your stated power x 2 or x 5 or whatever is accurate, shouldn't your dynamic power be about twice that?

    I asked HK about a stereo rcvr of theirs once. If I remember correctly, it was rated at 100 X 2 at 8 ohms & 135 X 2 at 4 ohms, but their email reply said that its dynamic power was not a published measurement, so eff off, in so many words.

    Ideally, shouldn't dynamic be approx twice the RMS? If not, what do you think, roughly speaking, an acceptable minimum dynamic should be?
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    My whole question was what dynamic meant? and Hbomb answered that easily and understandable, the dynamic power doesn't really make much difference to me as its used realatively and in short instances, the need for power is there and it makes up for it, I don't think there is one set scale for dynamic power. different amps will yield diff stats i would guess,
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited January 2003
    We all know that RMS and watts have nothing to do with each other, right? This is no such animal as 'watts rms'. 'Continuous' is the correct term.

    Who started the whole RMS thing anyway? Anyone? Bueller?
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    So please explain, I have really always wondered. what the heck is RMS- or what blah blah blah, does it do 150 watts or not?? Or does it mean full distortion to get to 100 wpc?? or what?? LOL just me asking silly questions again
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by RuSsMaN
    We all know that RMS and watts have nothing to do with each other, right? This is no such animal as 'watts rms'. 'Continuous' is the correct term.

    Who started the whole RMS thing anyway? Anyone? Bueller?

    OK ya got me on a technicality.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

    I guess where it all started for me was if we use RMS voltage in v^^/r... well that just ment RMS Power. For an dumb EE like me it all kinda made sense but I know what your saying.

    and BTW... RMS is Root Mean Square.

    Still laughing is the HBomb

    :lol: :lol: :lol:
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • SystemsSystems Posts: 14,998
    edited January 2003
    could RMS = Random Meaningless Stat?

    ok, so should dynamic be twice the continuous, ideally?
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by RuSsMaN
    We all know that RMS and watts have nothing to do with each other, right? This is no such animal as 'watts rms'. 'Continuous' is the correct term.

    Who started the whole RMS thing anyway? Anyone? Bueller?

    The peak power rating of an amplifier is calculated by applying a continuous (there's that word) sine wave into the amplifier and measuring the resulting voltage peaks at whatever distortion level is being specified (say 0.1% for example).

    For a sine wave, the RMS value of the voltage is 0.707 times the peak voltage.

    Power = Volts ² / Impedance. The power rating can be based on peak voltage or RMS voltage, as long as the rater specifies which.

    Peak Power = Peak Volts ² / Impedance.
    RMS Power = RMS Volts ² / Impedance.

    Since peak voltage is measured with a continuous sine wave, and RMS voltage is simply a calculated fraction of the peak voltage, the terms "RMS" automatically implies continuous.

    Also, the term watts (RMS) is actually more accurate than simply stating "watts - continuous" because the reader immediately knows which voltage the amp rater was using. This is not the case with simply stating "watts - continuous".

    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited January 2003
    Agreed Doc, just being a stickler on terminology. How did you type that little '2'? Yes, I am easily entertained.

    /////
    Hello,
    I certainly don't want to split hairs, but, technically speaking there's no such thing as RMS Watts. You can measure RMS Amperes and RMS Volts, but, mathematically speaking, when you multiply them together, to have power, it is no longer an RMS measurement. The correct term is continuous Watts, not RMS Watts.
    Regards, Ken Swauger
    /////

    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    woosh, you guys are techy on this stuff in a good way.. I just wanted to know what dynamic was?? hehe!!
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • Dr. SpecDr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited January 2003
    Ken is splitting hairs and he is correct - but this has now become a discussion of semantics.

    The term "watts (RMS)" is commonly known as the power of an amplifier as calculated using the RMS voltage. It's just a short way of saying it.

    The FTC REQUIRES manufacturers to rate their audio amplifiers with the calculated RMS voltage into a given impedance load over a given frequency range with a stated distortion.

    Using RMS voltage makes the rating more conservative and holds everyone to the same standard.

    The term RMS is a 100% valid and meaningful term and is inseparable from amplifier power ratings in our hobby and I (for one) will continue to use it.

    If it will make anyone happy, I can try to avoid the term "watts RMS" when referring to a power rating, and try to say "watts as calculated with RMS voltage". As far as I'm concerned (aside from the semantics), the two have the same meaning.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen ([email protected])
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited January 2003
    It would make me ELATED Doc, but you could just say 'continuous watts'. Oh, and you still didn't give me the secret of the '2'. ;)

    Cheers,
    Rooster

    Seriously fellas, I wasn't trying to step on toes, just thought we would all want to use the 'correct' terminology. We are all intelligent men, discussing a topic we enjoy.

    Hell, I didn't know this until Ken set me straight.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TonyPTXTonyPTX Posts: 545
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by RuSsMaN
    Oh, and you still didn't give me the secret of the '2'.

    You mean you watt to know the secret to the power of two (²)? How about I tell you watt that secret to the power of three (³)?

    Russ, it's just ASCII extensions to the keyboard. Pull up the MS character map util and you'll see what keystrokes you have to do to make special characters. For example:

    100°F
    c²=a²+b²

    Use the ALT key as an "escape" function then bash the following numbers while holding the ALT key down.

    ALT+0178 = ²
    ALT+0179 = ³
    ALT+0176 = °

    Oh and all this stuff is © 2003 by TonyPTX.....
    Damn....8 lines...I've gotta put my sig on a diet now....
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited January 2003
    H²0

    HA!
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • shackshack Posts: 11,284
    edited January 2003
    ± Ah-ha.... This is the one I've needed on more that one occasion. Who says you can't learn anything on the Polk Forum!

    ®Bose - You can also open the character map and copy and paste instead of using the alt+XXXX function.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    ª©¨§
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • TonyPTXTonyPTX Posts: 545
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by shack
    ± Ah-ha.... This is the one I've needed on more that one occasion. Who says you can't learn anything on the Polk Forum!

    ®Bose - You can also open the character map and copy and paste instead of using the alt+XXXX function.

    True, but the alt+number is much quicker once you can remember the numbers for the symbols you use most often. Much like I use the degree symbol and the ±. You guys are either point and click newbies, or just plain old school.

    Reminds me of the days of DOS when we used to hide games on the school lab computers in a directory that was just labeled as a space [ ]. Windows will crap out every time it tries to access it. Matter of fact, windows will not even let you rename/label a directory as [ ]. Thats when we'd go into DOS and type the ALT+xxxx sequence to make the "hidden" directory and install our games in there. The teacher could never figure out how to access the directory to see what was in it (it did show up in "File Manager" though). Ahh those were the days.....
    Damn....8 lines...I've gotta put my sig on a diet now....
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2003
    I love the way threads meander... from audio to typing lessons in a one-page thread :lol:

    Back on topic,

    Thanks Doc. I remember the FTC coming to the rescue back in the 70's (?) with their RMS regulations. Up 'til then it was total chaos trying to read and compare power spec's.

    Bit surprised no one mentioned transient peaks and headroom and db's log scale implications in the discussion... especially as it turned more technical.

    In Faster's original example he has a little over 3-db headroom for transients, right? or are these terms as dead as speaker sensitivity seems to be?
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by Tour2ma

    In Faster's original example he has a little over 3-db headroom for transients, right? or are these terms as dead as speaker sensitivity seems to be?

    Its still used but not that often and yes that would be correct.

    I'm typically worried about being beat about the head, neck and chest so I try to keep it simple. ;)

    I'm a uWave guy and these terms are used quite often in my day to day adventures.

    Regards
    :lol:

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by HBombToo


    I'm a uWave guy...

    "uWave"??? Sorry, no capice...
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    uWave=microwave

    i'm in the wireless industry... don't shoot me now! ;)

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    well Hbomb i need a wireless nic and router access point.. can ya hook me up?? Just kidding but i would love to be wireless for my networked computers in the house, just to damm expensive
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • HBombTooHBombToo Posts: 5,335
    edited January 2003
    Originally posted by faster100
    well Hbomb i need a wireless nic and router access point.. can ya hook me up?? Just kidding but i would love to be wireless for my networked computers in the house, just to damm expensive

    sorry... not into WiFi. I engineer the wireless systems. Ya know when you have a dropped call its probably my fault but keep in mind that finance usually dictates capital expendatures... "Not Me!"

    :p

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • faster100faster100 Posts: 6,247
    edited January 2003
    I see, Ok ok.. so did you ever get to work on that psw350?? I am finally done with the setup i have. happy at last, actually though i am getting a single Rti28 from a polk member Thursday or friday through the notorious Fed Ex, I will hook this up for my rear center,
    MY HT RIG:
    Sherwood p-965
    Sherwood sd871 dvd
    Rotel 1075 amp x5
    LSI15 mains
    LsiC center
    LSIfx surround backs
    Lsi7 side surrounds
    SVS pb12/plus2


    2 Channel Rig:

    nad 1020 Pre-amp
    Rotel 1080 stereo amp
    Polk sda 2B
    kenwood grunt Tuner
    realistic lab 450 TT
    Signal cable IC
  • Tour2maTour2ma Old School Posts: 10,176
    edited January 2003
    Oh… u mean µ-wave…
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
  • jrauschjrausch Posts: 510
    edited January 2003
    When your amp capacitors run out of stored power, this determines how much overhead dynamic power you have. Check your Dynamic output specs in your manual. It should say something like "65,000 µF power supply filter capacitance" with 1.5db of headroom. The bigger the numbers, the more of a power cushion you will have in your amp. For instance that loud explosion in a movie will call upon that short burst of dynamic power stored in the caps when you exceed your amps continuous power ratings. If it's not there, clipped distortion will kill your speakers. As you just found out on your sub. No clean power means no control to keep that speaker from bottoming out. Too much power is always better than not enough.
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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