Onkyo 805 and Calibrating using SPL meter

jaysonbarnett

I have an onkyo 805 and you can see my speakers listed below. I am some what of a newbee in these new audio/video equipement. I have always been into audio just not as complex as todays equipement. Anyway i ran audyssey for all my speakers using all 8 positions, and then used my SPL meter. FIrst of all audyssey got all my speakers (even the subs) set with the right distances, but only 72 db on all my speakers (levels). I know i need to get it to 75db so i will be calibrated to reference levels.So my question is if someone can tell me how to use the spl meter properly. Do i hold it up to the roof? or point it at the speakers? I use a tri-pod for the meter. If i point it at the speakers do i turn the meter behind me to check the surrounds? Sorry if this sounds stupid but i have googled this and have read 50 different ways of doing this. I just want to hear from someone that knows what they are talking about. Someone told me from AVS forum that you can not calibrate polk rti's because they are not THX ceritified. I told him he was an IDIOT and now i want to post here where people are not idiots.

Also if someone can tell me of a device that will let me plug in two subs into it (the device) and out put the dc plug to the dc plug on the back of my receiver so when i turn off the receiver both subs will turn off as well. My receiver only has one dc plug so i have the other sub pluged into the wall so when i turn off the receiver only one sub will turn off. I know i can get a power strip and turn it off manually but i am lazy. I hope that made since.
Thank you in advance because i really want to get my system sounding good. Right now i can barley hear my center and surround speakers. I have to turn the volume up and down during the whole movie.

Sherardp

keep meter pointed up, adjust to reference levels. For surrounds, dont move meter, just adjust trim levels until you reach reference. Make sure speakers are set to small, crossover set to 80hz and sub is set to on.

BIZILL

don't your subs have standbye mode whereas they turn on and off when they sense a signal through the sub composite input?

jaysonbarnett

Is the SPL meter correct because when i just used the meter to 75db it brings up the levels alot (center to +1)when before the meter it was at (-5) i am just wondering how accurate the meter is or is the mic w/audyssey more accurate?

jaysonbarnett

don't your subs have standbye mode whereas they turn on and off when they sense a signal through the sub composite input?

My velodyne light on the back turns orange when there is no signal. Is that ok or will it ruin the amp?

BIZILL

i'm not familiar with your particular velo, but i'd assume orange is standbye and keeps the amp at idle or off completely then it'll illuminate green when it senses a signal, thus turning itself on.

jaysonbarnett

i'm not familiar with your particular velo, but i'd assume orange is standbye and keeps the amp at idle or off completely then it'll illuminate green when it senses a signal, thus turning itself on.

Yes thats correct so is it ok to have the orange light on?

BIZILL

all should be operating normal.:)

the light should just be a standbye light, letting you know the sub is plugged in an ready to go when your receiver commands it to.

nikolas812

jaysonbarnett wrote: »

Yes thats correct so is it ok to have the orange light on?

Yes. Your good.



Nick

nikolas812

jaysonbarnett wrote: »

Is the SPL meter correct because when i just used the meter to 75db it brings up the levels alot (center to +1)when before the meter it was at (-5) i am just wondering how accurate the meter is or is the mic w/audyssey more accurate?

I would take the SPL meter over audyssey any day.

Set it with the SPL meter.

Then watch a familiar movie or a good movie for demo and see what you think. I personaly like the beginning of Cars for Reference and demo purposes.

If you like it, cool.

If not, tweak it a little bit to suit your taste. Some people like there center hot, some don't

Just get it to what sounds best to you. Even if you tweak it a little bit you still know where reference level is.

Have fun.


Nick

jaysonbarnett

I would take the SPL meter over audyssey any day.

Set it with the SPL meter.

Then watch a familiar movie or a good movie for demo and see what you think. I personaly like the beginning of Cars for Reference and demo purposes.

If you like it, cool.

If not, tweak it a little bit to suit your taste. Some people like there center hot, some don't

Just get it to what sounds best to you. Even if you tweak it a little bit you still know where reference level is.
Are movies just not recorded high for the surrounds. Like transformers i can barely hear the surrounds at all

Have fun.

Thanx nick i am just trying to get all speakers to the same level this is why i was asking how to properly use my SPL meter because i can barley hear the center and never the surrounds. I keep thinking i am doing something wrong. Other people that come over say the same thing "are these speakers on" refering to the surrounds. I will post pics when i get home so you can see my layout.

tcrossma

As long as the speakers are adjusted in relation to each other it really doesn't matter too much to what db they are calibrated (within reason, of course). 72db vs. 75db isn't going to make any difference whatsoever. The important thing is that they are adjusted in relation to each of the other speakers so you get a seamless soundstage.

I would personally use Audyssey first, then make adjustments manually from there: set the speakers to large/small correctly and make manual trim adjustments with using the SPL meter.

nikolas812

jaysonbarnett wrote: »

Thanx nick i am just trying to get all speakers to the same level this is why i was asking how to properly use my SPL meter because i can barley hear the center and never the surrounds. I keep thinking i am doing something wrong. Other people that come over say the same thing "are these speakers on" refering to the surrounds. I will post pics when i get home so you can see my layout.

The correct way to use the SPL meter.

1. Sit in the sweet spot.

2. Hold the SPL meter in front of you where it points towards the ceiling. I personally like to hold it at the same level as your head(or ear level).

3. Run the pink noise test and set all channels to 75db.

There. Thats it.



Your not really supposed to hear the surrounds. Or at least not like you will with the main speakers. When set up properly they will blend in with the sound and produce a seamless surround sound effect. Which means the sound from them will be subtle. But enough to produce an effect. At least in most cases. The prominence of sound varies form DVD to DVD. If your not hearing any sound from the speakers at all then something is wrong.

As for the Center. If its not where you want it. Bump it up or down until it sounds natural or right to you..


Nick

John K.

Jayson, as tcross pointed out, the main object in calibrating speaker levels is to get them equal to each other as heard at the listener's location. It isn't critical whether the level used is 75dB or anything else at a reasonably loud level that can be accurately measured.

As to the accuracy of the built-in meter used in the Audyssey system, there's no good reason to believe that it isn't at least as accurate as setting the levels manually with the aid of a separate meter, especially when the added element of possible human error in reading the meter is considered.

kuntasensei

A few thoughts on the original poster's problem:

One problem with your center level could be the way you calibrated with Audyssey. The mics with the Onkyos use a shallow base. Sadly, most room configurations put the center channel at greater than 90 degrees off the center axis of the mic when the mic is placed at ear level. Per Audyssey, the mics are intended for grazing incidence (i.e. not aiming straight at the mic capsule). Here's the problem with Onkyo's mics: The base of the mic actually obscures the sound a bit, causing the calibration of the center channel to be A MESS. The mics with Denons have an elevated capsule for this very reason.

The way around it is to do each mic placement such that all of the speakers are within 90 degrees off-axis from the center of the mic capsule, preferably with all speakers at a similar off-axis angle. Since the surrounds are typically higher up on the wall, this means that tilting the mic forward slightly normally gives you a better result with Audyssey's equalization. My initial run with my 705 gave me the same results as yours - dialogue too low and ridiculously off when checked with a SPL meter.

The mics supplied with all consumer grade Audyssey-enabled products are good for testing level relative to the other speakers (i.e. level matching) but are not adjusted to a set sensitivity, which is why Audyssey does not attempt to set the channel trims to proper reference levels. It simply matches the levels between speakers, whatever that level may be. If you're using the absolute volume scale, then this doesn't matter... but to get 0 to equal reference level on the relative scale, you have to adjust all channels to 75dB with a SPL meter. If you have done the Audyssey calibration correctly and with care, you should be adjusting all channel trims by the same amount to bring it up to 75dB.

Unfortunately, Onkyo went against Audyssey's recommendations and set their receivers to detect any speaker that is relatively flat down to 80Hz as "full range" (whereas Audyssey recommended 40Hz as the threshhold). Now, you can just set all channels to 80Hz and forget it.. but I've found with my setup that I got a much better sound by tailoring each channel to the speakers' capability. A good guideline is to set the crossover for each channel to 1.5 times its -3dB point so that you give it a half-octave of transition before the speaker's natural rolloff (though the actual transition will likely extend beyond this, since in-room response is usually lower than the anechoic spec listed by Polk). The exception is that you don't want to have to set any channel above 80Hz or you risk localizing your subwoofer. For instance, the OP's RTi8s extend down to 40Hz, making 60Hz an excellent crossover point. I'm using 60Hz for my older RTi70s, and they have a similar response. The RTi4s and FXi3 have a -3dB point of 60Hz and the CSi3 of 65Hz, so stick with 80Hz for those.

The Onkyos come with the low pass filter of LFE (LPF of LFE) defaulted to the THX 80Hz standard. Do not mistake this setting as a "subwoofer crossover". This is a filter placed solely on the LFE channel alone - not the summed subwoofer output. Since the LFE channel in digital soundtracks is designed to extend up to 120Hz, the only way to ensure that you're getting all the related harmonics (despite there being much placed above 80Hz by audio mixers) is to set LPF of LFE to 120Hz. The only reason I would use the 80Hz default is with THX-certified equipment where the subwoofer's output is specifically tailored to only perform below 80Hz. A good subwoofer can produce not only the sub-80Hz bass but the harmonics above it that give the bass notes their perceived tone.

The crossover for each individual channel determines where it transitions to the sub, so you want to make sure any active crossover on the subwoofer itself is either disabled or turned to its maximum setting. This also helps prevent crossover-induced delay, which can throw off the distance detection.

Do not, and I repeat, DO NOT plug your subwoofer into the receiver. The power outlet on the receiver is not designed for that much current draw and will very likely affect the quality of your receiver's output, especially at volume. It could also cause a potential fire/overheating hazard.

As for how to hold the meter: The common advice you'll get is to hold the meter straight up at the ceiling. There's a big reason that this may or may not be good advice - the mic on the SPL meter has a different rolloff as it gets further off-axis from center. Now, theatrical setup dictates holding the meter straight up, however theatrical setup doesn't have speaker placements at such a close distance and such disparate angles. Therefore, in a large theater, the meter is able to read more indirectly how the sound is balanced for the large space. Because the speakers are closer and at more disparate angles in the home theater, holding the SPL meter straight up can often lead to the surrounds being turned down too low, since their angle closer to the mic's center axis can slightly affect how they read. So how do you get around this? The same way you should do with the Audyssey mic during setup: You angle the SPL meter on your tripod slightly forward so that the angle from each speaker to the center axis of the mic is more similar. This ensures that you're getting a more balanced response from each test tone and will give you a more balanced soundfield as a result.

You'll also see people tell you to sit in your main listening position when checking with a SPL meter, holding the meter in front of you. WRONG. This is fine for quick spot-checking, but should not be used for critical calibration. Not only does your body being in the seat itself affect the acoustics enough to potentially throw off the level reading, vibrations from your hands can produce enough low frequency noise to affect calibration. The ideal method is to place the SPL meter on a tripod in the main listening position with the mic placed where your head would be when seated. You would then want to stand behind your seating if at all possible, since the seating itself will absorb sound in front of you, minimizing the effect of you being in the room. This same idea is why you should NOT be in the room when running Audyssey's calibration... Your body affects the sound, and you're calibrating FOR THE ROOM.

Audyssey is very much a garbage-in/garbage out proposition, and careful attention should be paid to proper calibration when using it. I would suspect that your initial run-through of Audyssey could potentially have caused the dialogue issue you're having. For more information on how to properly calibrate with Audyssey, see my section of the 705 FAQ over at AVS here.

garnier

Kuntasensei, what does this mean? "90 degrees off the center axis of the mic." Thank you.

kuntasensei

Imagine a line coming straight out of the end of the mic. That's the center axis of the mic.

jaysonbarnett

Thanks to all of you THANX AGAIN see this is why i come to this forum. I ran audyssey again last night with all the advice here and i think ive got it. The one thing i did change was i moved my huge table which i think was blocking the sound and now i can hear my center channel. Also kuntasensei I took your advice on the crossover points and i will see tonight when i watch the bank job. Thanx again for all your advice. Kuntasensei i had my sub plugged into the receiver and does that effect the sound of the sub?

kuntasensei

It can affect the sound of the subwoofer during transients (i.e. brief bursts of bass that require more power). During those peak moments, you're also reducing the clean power the receiver can deliver to the speakers. DO NOT leave it plugged into your receiver.

jaysonbarnett

Did i ruin my onkyo? with the sub plugged in?

jaysonbarnett

this is my last question about audyssey. Can i have two subs (connected with a Y splitter) connected at the same time and then run audyssey? or do i unplug one and then reconnect the other one after audyssey is complete.

jon s

you can use a y-splitter and then calibrate... adding the second sub later will throw calibration off...

jaysonbarnett

I have a velodyne 12 inch and epik 15 inch is this ok with audyssey or do the subs have to be the same? Im just wondering because audyssey will eq the subs but if they are differnet brands(and sizes) will this confuse audyssey?

kuntasensei

jaysonbarnett wrote: »

Did i ruin my onkyo? with the sub plugged in?

No, you didn't ruin anything. But I would unplug it from the 805 immediately.

As far as your multiple subs: Are they located in the same place or different places?

Kex

kuntasensei wrote: »

No, you didn't ruin anything. But I would unplug it from the 805 immediately. ...

Does he mean unplug the LFE output, or what? Does his subwoofer not have its own amplifier? Does Audyssey EQ require that the sub not be plugged in for calibration, or does it just do a very bad job of it? Just curious, and want to clear things up for the OP in case he's not following.

tcrossma

Kex wrote: »

Does he mean unplug the LFE output, or what? Does his subwoofer not have its own amplifier? Does Audyssey EQ require that the sub not be plugged in for calibration, or does it just do a very bad job of it? Just curious, and want to clear things up for the OP in case he's not following.

From the way I read things I was under the impression that the OP had the sub's power cord plugged into an outlet on the receiver. But that's just the way I read it -- not sure if that's really the case either, so some clarification might be in order here.

jaysonbarnett

yes i had (key word had) the sub plugged into the back of the reciever. The reason i did that to begin with is i wanted the sub to turn off completely. Now i know and i dont know if anyone else has felt this way, but when you do something lame you feel like an idiot. Now that i have looked that up it really can be all bad. Thanx to all that let me know because i called chad from epik subwoofers he laughed and told me to unplug it immediately. I also when i got home i re-ran audyssey with kuntasensei advice, and i have to say this is the best my system has sounded yet. My surrounds and center are PERFECT!! I also ran audyssey with both subs connected this time( the time before i just unplugged the velodyne and replugged it back in later) and i have to say the bass is right on. Except at about 60 hrtz ( i used an avia disk with signal sweep and used my trusty SPL meter) there is a null there almost no sound, but other than that i am doing reallly well.
thanx again
P.S. now that i found calibration disks i am hooked

garnier

nikolas812 wrote: »

Your not really supposed to hear the surrounds. Or at least not like you will with the main speakers. When set up properly they will blend in with the sound and produce a seamless surround sound effect. Which means the sound from them will be subtle. But enough to produce an effect. At least in most cases. The prominence of sound varies form DVD to DVD. If your not hearing any sound from the speakers at all then something is wrong.

As for the Center. If its not where you want it. Bump it up or down until it sounds natural or right to you..


Nick

I agree with you, nikolas812!

SlowcarIX

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/graphs/graph1.html

shows what Audyssey does graphically besides level matching

jaysonbarnett

Hey slowcar you finally sold your conquest i see. I really love my caliber there is now i could be without it. Those audyssey graphs are very informative thanx.

I agree with you, nikolas812

I know the surrounds do not sound like the fronts but before i could not hear them very well. Now i can hear ambient sounds that were not there before.

nikolas812

jaysonbarnett wrote: »

Hey slowcar you finally sold your conquest i see. I really love my caliber there is now i could be without it. Those audyssey graphs are very informative thanx.


I know the surrounds do not sound like the fronts but before i could not hear them very well. Now i can hear ambient sounds that were not there before.

Sweet!

It really is nice when everythign starts comeing together.

Congrats and enjoy.

Nick