Now that's classy right there!

dkg999

Sometimes it's not about marketing or PR. Sometimes it's about senior mgt just deciding to recognize the accomplishments of a worthy competitor on a major milestone in their history. It takes a complex decision/approval process in a company like Ford to put that up on the sign, or it takes the sr person at the top just giving a direct order to do it.

And I would challenge the fact that you can label any auto manufacturer as foreign or domestic? The distinction just doesn't exist anymore.

Ricardo

What's this thread about? Oh, and my last 7 cars have been Honda. NEVER had any expense beyond tires, oil & filter, and 1 (one) battery.

Need to go now.

bobman1235

Whose GDP do their corporate profits count towards? There's the distinction.

As far as having employees and factories and all that stuff you're right, but where the corporation comes from still counts for a lot.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I heard or read somewhere that Toyota makes more cars in the US than the American car makers, don't know if it's true or if I'm even remembering that correctly...

kgingras

Jstas wrote: »

Everybody always lists Consumer Reports. Why? People tell you that they are bogus because the have a reputation for twisting the facts, fixing test results and being corporate shills.

Honestly Edmunds isn't much better.

But whatever. For the results to really mean anything, the survey criteria is important but since I'm just "letting my patriotism cloud my judgement" I won't even bother anymore.

For the record, I think your judgement is also clouded in this matter.

I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of CR either and I am familiar with some of the problems they've had in the past. My favorite pet peeve is when they review a sports car and say something like “the ride is harsh”. . But as far as reliability, resale, initial and log term quality analysis, I do not see why they would fudge those results? An an American non profit company, if anything, I would think they would skew the results to favor the US manufacturers. I wish I could provide a link to the snippet I had but I cannot get into that part of the site. I do have the article in front of me however and it has a lot of great information in it.

The Japanese and specifically Toyota are kicking the asses of American manufacturers because they are the best problem solving organization on the planet. They strive for zero defects and perfection in everything they produce. The others do not. They do it on American turf without unions, pay comparable market rates, have fully paid up pension programs and a no layoff policy. How novel given recent news.

By the way, I liked your analysis of the AIG fiasco and although I understand the situation it is still a very hard pill to swallow. But as you say, it is not a situation anyone wants to be in. I look back to the Asian financial crisis of the 90’s when the IMF stepped in. The US was relentless in enforcing its rules about letting Korean banks and other companies to collapse rather than allowing gov’ts to bail them out. I realize this situation is different but the US’s reputation is not being helped by doing this. After decades of rhetoric about the virtues of the free market and the dangers of gov’t intervention, they are going to have a helluva time promoting these policies abroad. I saw footage a few days ago of Paulson and Bernacki coming out of what looked to be the meeting where these decisions re AIG were made and they both had very grim looks on their faces. Just wondering if the same thing was going through their heads.

Jstas

bobman1235 wrote: »

So who can we trust? Post some links with counter information.

When all of the big name survey companies agree that imports are more reliable, and the consensus among normal people is that imports are more reliable, and the sales of American cars are in the tank compared to very profitable imports.... how exactly can you corroborate your opinion? Aside from "I own a Ford truck and love it", which is great but irrelevant. I've owned American cars and loved them too, we're talking about the general trend not specific models and experiences.

I'm not even going to bother. Wouldn't want my "patriotism" to get in the way.

Funny though how when ever someone says the imports aren't all they are cracked up to be, it's "patriotism" and blind allegiance. Whatever. I'm sick of the close minded attitude. If you've driven a bunch of stuff like Brett seems to have done theen I'd understand that you just didn't like them. But when you just sit on an Internet forum telling everyone who disagrees with you that you can't have a rational discussion and accuse them of over-zealous patriotism to avoid arguing a point or doing any real research, kinda makes me not want to bother with it.

As for MY "evidence" I never really claimed to be having anything like that. I've read news reports at not only places like CNN, Reuters, AP news feeds and such but the places like BON, Autoblog, Top Gear's own website, Jalopnik and so on. But of course, I have a Ford bias and such and my own personal experience is invalid. OK, so's yours. Consumer Reports is not non-profit. They have a profit, they sell magazines and internet site subscriptions plus adevertisements. Same goes with Edmunds. They BOTH say they don't take corporate funding but they refuse to release financial records. I don't care how accurate or inaccurate their reports are, I question the integrity of the companies at a fundamental level and that reflects poorly on everything.

Besides, I have grave concerns about the validity and value of results from a company that refuses to release survey procedures and policies. How is anyone going to be able to verify results of a survey if you can't even see what the survey control is? Yeah, don't ever hold up Consumer Reports as an example. They are bogus through and through.

As far as the rest of your questions, read the news sites and get some info that isn't 4+ years old for once.

AsSiMiLaTeD

John, instead of attacking the two independent resources of evidence that Bob brought up, how about supplying some of your own? It's easy for me to say "Your evidence is crap", it's something altogether different to provide counter-evidence of my own.

For example, take THIS link that shows JD Powers VDS ratings.

That one even helps your case a little - on that list there are 5 American cars in the top 15, and Buick is tied with Lexus for # 1. Of course Ford, Chevy, and Dodge are all below the industry standard, but at least Ford and GM have their premeir brands in the top 10. Oddly enough though, Nissan is also below the industry standard. I've never owned one, but I've always thought of them in the same category as Toyota and Honda, while, at least looking at this link, clearly they're not.

I don't know how accurate this article is, and to tell the truth I wouldn't trust a single source of information, but when multiple independent sources all say the same thing, that information becoems more reliable.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Ah, and see I found the 2008 version of that article HERE, where Ford actually managed to sneak in above the industry average.

As far as I know, those articles are not based on personal opinion, but on actual statistics regarding the number of defects. Of course that could be a flawed measure, because a bad cruise control module that causes your vehicle to spontaneously burst into flames (really happened to my beighbor, funny as hell since no one got hurt) and a broken radio knob are both considered defects, yet one is obviously 'worse' than the other, and this study does not account for that...

kgingras

Jstas wrote: »

Consumer Reports is not non-profit. They have a profit, they sell magazines and internet site subscriptions plus adevertisements. Same goes with Edmunds. They BOTH say they don't take corporate funding but they refuse to release financial records. I don't care how accurate or inaccurate their reports are, I question the integrity of the companies at a fundamental level and that reflects poorly on everything.

Besides, I have grave concerns about the validity and value of results from a company that refuses to release survey procedures and policies. How is anyone going to be able to verify results of a survey if you can't even see what the survey control is? Yeah, don't ever hold up Consumer Reports as an example. They are bogus through and through.

If they don't sell magazine or internet subscriptions then how are they supposed to buy the products they need to test?

And they do publish how they perform their tests, surveys etc.

bobman1235

Jstas, I was only commenting on your objectivity with regards to cars, I wasn't maligning your character. You don't need to stomp your foot and refuse to play.

I don't think that EVERYONE who prefers American cars is saying so because of blind allegiance, but it seems like every time the topic comes up around here that's what it comes down to. It's never the merits of the cars themselves, just "BUY AMERICAN AND SAVE AMERICAN JOBS", and when someone tries to disagree they just get told America is awesome. You can't argue that at least 90% of the time that's what happens. So maybe you shouldn't have been lumped into that but it IS a common response.

Jstas

bobman1235 wrote: »

Jstas, I was only commenting on your objectivity with regards to cars, I wasn't maligning your character. (lotsa other stuff deleted for length concerns)

I don't disagree with that but it always seems to be directed at me.

Yeah, I bleed Ford Blue. Big deal. I have my reasons for liking Ford and they come out of my success I've had in racing with Ford products for both utility (towing, hauling parts) and actual racing. My uncle was also a Ford salesman for 30 years. I don't preach the mantra you complain of. Others do though but where others fail at putting forth a valid argument, I can. I am objective and I have not said that American cars are better than others. What I am saying is that things have changed, they are different. The info all the "haters" seem to have is at least 4 years old and alot of it extends back two decades ago. Stop living in the past and go out and do some research of your own. You'll see, things are different. Yeah, both sides are still churning out crap. There is no need to bring up specific examples because every example you can give for poor quality can be matched for one I can give for good quality. It doesn't get anywhere.

The only way your or anyone else's mind is going to change is by changing the experience you are having. The only way to do that is to go out and get a NEW experience with NEW stuff.

Go drive a Ford or a GM (not a Chrysler, they aren't so hot) and see for yourself. There is a reason the news stories are favoring domestic products more now. There is a reason Buick is toe to toe with Lexus. Things have changed.

I will always support the American brands. That's me but it's not out of patriotism. It's because they sell the stuff I want to buy. The other stuff I want to buy I can't afford and it comes from Italy and England and Germany. Aside from an RX-7, pretty much nothing out of Japan or Korea tickles my fancy and that's my opinion. But I'm not going to make an argument based on that. I'm gonna go with facts that can be found by anyone, anywhere.

Jstas

kgingras wrote: »

If they don't sell magazine or internet subscriptions then how are they supposed to buy the products they need to test?

And they do publish how they perform their tests, surveys etc.

I never said they weren't trying to turn a profit. It was mentioned in another post by someone else.

They publish how the tests and surverys are done but they won't give you the actual statistical base nor will they give you the info on what criteria dictates a bad sample or incongruent survey info. They won't tell you how the data is managenaged. They will only tell you how they got it (i.e.: phone survey, mail survey, POS survey) but they won't tell you what questions were asked, what criteria something was judged by, what was considered a baseline or control sample. Just because they tell you they are telling you what is up doesn't mean they are telling you the WHOLE story.

And the website is no better because they give you the same "results" info but add to it user feedback. That stuff is awful because it's purported by ill-informed, over-opinionated people with nothing better to do but surf the net. Half the time, you can't even be sure that the commentor even OWNS the products they are commenting on. It's like reading tire reviews on TireRack.com. It's either ///BEST TIRE EVAR!!!! or ///WORST TIRE EVAR!!! No happy medium, just fanboi crap.

I'd sooner go with companies like J.D. Power or Deloitte. At least they have established methods of collecting data and publish all the info.

kgingras

Jstas wrote: »

I never said they weren't trying to turn a profit. It was mentioned in another post by someone else.

They publish how the tests and surverys are done but they won't give you the actual statistical base nor will they give you the info on what criteria dictates a bad sample or incongruent survey info. They won't tell you how the data is managenaged. They will only tell you how they got it (i.e.: phone survey, mail survey, POS survey) but they won't tell you what questions were asked, what criteria something was judged by, what was considered a baseline or control sample. Just because they tell you they are telling you what is up doesn't mean they are telling you the WHOLE story.

And the website is no better because they give you the same "results" info but add to it user feedback. That stuff is awful because it's purported by ill-informed, over-opinionated people with nothing better to do but surf the net. Half the time, you can't even be sure that the commentor even OWNS the products they are commenting on. It's like reading tire reviews on TireRack.com. It's either ///BEST TIRE EVAR!!!! or ///WORST TIRE EVAR!!! No happy medium, just fanboi crap.

I'd sooner go with companies like J.D. Power or Deloitte. At least they have established methods of collecting data and publish all the info.

Again, I ask what is the motivation to skew the results. There is detailed information inside each issue about how CR conducts their testing. I have a feeling that no matter what level of detail they provide, it will not be good enough though.

Just perusing through JD power results I see nothing to get excited about with the American manufacturers. I see some good scores with IQ but that doesn’t mean ****. What happens 3 years down the line? How about resale? Check those results and then you begin to see some unfavourable trends. With the exception of a couple of marques (Cadilac, Buick), most begin to fall to about “about average” or worse while many of the Japanese marques are “better than most” or “among the best”.

Not specifically related to you but the other thing that confuses me is why is one’s patriotism questioned for buying an Asian or European brand? The vast majority of these companies have invested huge sums in manufacturing facilities here in North America. Honda has well over $10 billion in capital investments just in the state of Ohio alone. Next quarter they’ll have a new $500 million plant coming on line in Greensburg, IN. Parts are supplied by over 650 companies from North America. Honda builds many of its products wherever its customers are located. All Accords, Civics, Odyessy’s, Pilots, Ridgelines, Acura TL, RDX, MDX power products, sports products are built in North America for North America. Some of these products are even exported back to the far east. Not only are many are these built here but they are also designed here from the ground up. The new Acura TL just began mass production on its third generation all of which were designed here in the US.

The only unpatriotic thing about them is the lack of the UAW in their plants. The large US auto manufacturers had the opportunity to learn from the Japanese with the International Motor Vehicle Program study, they chose not to. Had they tackled the demarcation, the unions, the operational procedures then (10+ years ago) they would probably find that they would not be in this mess today. If you don’t change and evolve, and realize that there are other, better, more effective ways of operating you will not survive. It appears that the penny has only just dropped and the pain it causes them to change today will be far greater than it would have been had they addressed it when they first had the opportunity. I'd not be concerned about what you are doing Monday unless you work for a unionised monolith who don’t want to or wont accept change. The unions fought for what they wanted and because of the short term-ism of winning battles for members over pensions and health care they will in the long term have put them selves out of a job. Oh Well!

George Grand

Great way to dick up a thread.

25 freakin' posts and they're obviously all in this thread. Welcome to Club Polk, I don't like you.

kgingras

George Grand wrote: »

Great way to dick up a thread.

25 freakin' posts and they're obviously all in this thread. Welcome to Club Polk, I don't like you.

I've posted in several other threads.

Joe08867

George Grand wrote: »

Great way to dick up a thread.

25 freakin' posts and they're obviously all in this thread. Welcome to Club Polk, I don't like you.

I still think the guy is a Tool!

+1 George

Systems

Real nice guys, way to gang up on him, man don't you just hate it when somebody elses opinion isn't your own......

carpenter

Frankly I'm surprised that nobody brought up the GM-volt. for me it's proof positive that someone at GM has been paying attention to the world. the volt addresses all the future automobile-market demands. Firstly, it's as green as any car lined up by any manufacturer, Secondly, it promises to be so fuel efficient, that if GM delivers so much as half what they publish, it's fantastic. It's practical, affordable, and it doesn't look as ugly as most electric monstrosities. to sum up, IMO, contrary to popular opinion the last chapter in GM's book is not about to be written anytime soon.

George Grand

Settle down Lorthos. He's just dying for it to go political. Seen it all before.