Whats this CRAP I heard on the news....

RuSsMaN

...this morning.

First

'Intelligence, not military force is the key'

AND

'Military action is NOT inevitable with Afghanistan'

Is it just me, or has the 'harshness' of the event ever so slightly started to dissipate? Are we softening our stance, our retaliation?

I'm getting impatient, I need to see SOMETHING happening. I am sick of hearing about the rag-head Talidouchebags every day, I don't care what they think, I don't care what they have to say. I don't care to LEARN of their culture and religion.....

I'm not saying to go level the Middle East, but Christ, lets get on with it. Everyday we sit and refrain, or plan, or wait, or negotiate....is another day the shitheads get to plan another tragedy...

Sorry for the rant..

Russ

Micah Cohen

It took a while for us to get back to Japan after Pearl Harbour. I think almost a year. And then... Well... You know. It's only been three weeks.

Don't worry. We'll do that voodoo we do so well.

And if you can just get all the traitorous "peacenicks" in this country to stop whining about how much they care about "civilian casualties," we might even do some good, serious damage.

I'm personally looking forward to it.

MC

TroyD

I would have to go check my dates but I think it was nearly a year and a half before we were ready to take on Japan after Pearl Harbor.

In the Gulf War, we built up our forces for six months before the aerial campaign started.

I, as much as anyone am anxious to get this going but it takes time. Moving forces does not happen as quickly as we would like. What I do think is encouraging is that we are amassing a VERY lethal, potentially devestating force. So when we do call down the thunder it will come with authority. To have done something hastily, and not well thought out would have caused a lot more American casualties. Russ, my man, be patient from my vantage point our position of strength and resolve is growing every day.

Troy

procw

”I would have to go check my dates but I think it was nearly a year and a half before we were ready to take on Japan after Pearl Harbor.”

Actually it was only six months. The battle of Midway atoll started on June 2, 1942 and we did kick some butt.

TroyD

..I have bad memory for dates. Point is though, these things are going to take time.

Troy

joelll

Originally posted by RuSsMaN

...this morning.

First

'Intelligence, not military force is the key'


This quote, though given without context, is valid as it stands, IMHO.

No really. Look into what happened with various military forces mounting campaigns or installing governments in Afghanistan. The British withdrew after their colonial governor was drawn and quartered -- implying that British forces couldn't protect him and the power he represented. The Soviets had an estimated 100,000 men involved, in the air and on the ground, and they meddled with Afghanistan's government, and their campaign was a total disaster.

Intelligence is *crucial* to any campaign into Afghanistan. Throwing in large armies because it'll make us feel better could result in drastic losses of our soldiers. Good military intelligence can limit those losses.


'Military action is NOT inevitable with Afghanistan'


But it's very, very likely, because the ultimatum we gave to the Taliban is more than I think they'll ever agree to.


Is it just me, or has the 'harshness' of the event ever so slightly started to dissipate?


It has, and it will. It might help to look at it as a change from adrenaline-charged rage to a cold resolve. There are many reasons for this, but I think the biggest is human nature.

Also, look at the calls for a return to normalcy in daily actions by ordinary citizens, because without it our faltering economy could drop like a rock.


Are we softening our stance, our retaliation?


I don't think so. We're building up a huge invasion force near Afghanistan. We can bide our time; they're not going anywhere. All the countries on their borders have closed their borders. The logistics of moving a large ground force are time-consuming and expensive (and always have been). The skies are unchallenged, and we have carriers in the area, but there isn't anything strategic there to bomb, unless we decide we want to starve and bankrupt the country, and for that we would have to destroy their cash crops -- food and poppies -- which (if I recall) aren't even planted yet (they plant crops on a different schedule, because of water availability). Er, starve them more than they were already, because a significant number of Afghans are already starving to death after four years of drought.


I'm getting impatient, I need to see SOMETHING happening. I am sick of hearing about the rag-head Talidouchebags every day, I don't care what they think, I don't care what they have to say. I don't care to LEARN of their culture and religion.....


We're hearing about their culture and religion because the media doesn't have much else to report at the moment, and there's a perceived desire on behalf of their consumers for more information.

We want the bad guys. They're hiding in a country that many Americans don't understand. We don't want to bomb the many starving refugees of the past 20 years of war; the global consequences could be terrible. We need to get the people who perpetrated the acts of terrorism against our country.


I'm not saying to go level the Middle East, but Christ, lets get on with it. Everyday we sit and refrain, or plan, or wait, or negotiate....is another day the shitheads get to plan another tragedy...


I believe we already are. Remember the confirmation that special forces are already working on the ground in Afghanistan? Those soldiers don't exactly go waving at cameras or chatting on the 'net about what they're up to.



joel

TroyD

I understand and share the frustrations shared by Russ though....

I look at it this way, in the last 8 years we have had:
The WTC bombed
US Army soldiers killed, mutilated and dragged through the streets of Mogadishu
Bombing of the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia
Bombing of 2 US Embassies in Africa
Bombing of the USS Cole in Yemen

and what was done?? Essentially nothing, nada, zip, zero. That really pisses me off. I think the current administration is on the right track but it I can see people getting discouraged. The prior administration essentially gave those **** a pass on all of the above incidents. I agree with Russ's sentiment that it is time to not only punish but exterminate these ****.

Troy

RuSsMaN

But I sway toward instant retaliation everytime the thought enters my mind of so many lives ending, suddenly, violently.....

The pain, the fear.....

Think about what it must feel like to be crushed, or burned alive.....or have your throat slit with a box cutter....

Its time to bomb the f'rs, I don't care anymore. Right now I am so mad, I feel like they should put some riot gear on me, drop me in the freakin desert with a couple sawed offs, I'll go find the **** myself.....and deliver his head in burlap.

Russenegger

wangotango68

if george can get access to a plane we can all meet in n.j. and fly over bring any weapon you have and we can do it ourselves!!


scott:mad:

TroyD

largely because up until now, we have done squat to these maggots. Thier time is coming my friends......"the only thing worse than death is the anticipation of death"

Troy

Micah Cohen

Listen, it's also a time of reckoning for the religion of Islam.

Every major religion has gone thru times in history when the religion has to grow and change, and its god has to be brought up to date, to fall into line with the modern world. Judaism had to do it when the Romans left Palestine. Christianity had to do it (less) during the crusades and (again during and after) WWII. Now it is time for Islam.

If the god concept of that religion does not grow and change with the requirements of the people of the time, that god and its religion will cease to be viable forces, ultimately dying out.

Now is the time for all good muslims, the ones who claim to chose to follow the non-violent parts of the koran, the parts that say that "all religions and peoples must live together in harmony" (and there are such parts), to SPEAK UP and vomit up these fanatics en mass out of their midst and take a stance on which god will be the god of islam: the peaceful allah, or the vengeful allah.

It's sad that even islam seems to have not figured this out yet. Few if any muslim clerics (I'd love to be a "cleric"; do they get "points" -- invisibility, magic, etc. -- like in those old D&D role-playing games?) have spoken out against the fanatics, few have rallied their flocks to speak out against the misuse of allah for violent purposes. For centuries, islam has leaned toward its more violent, circa 13th century, "allah or the sword," tendencies. Now it has to make a choice.

This conflict -- the civilized world against the uncivilized world -- will change islam forever. Either with or without islam's own permission. I don't understand where the islamic leaders are on this, unless they are all secretly ready to fight to the death for the killer allah?

MC

George Grand

Yes, I am in the military. Yes, at times I talk about military action. HOWEVER, after the initial feelings subside, it becomes apparent that things MAY NOT be as they seem. It is crucial to get The Big Picture, and then let the COOLER HEADS (Powell, Rumsfelt, Cheney) advise the hotter heads.

We are closer to the TOTAL DESTRUCTION OF THIS ENTIRE PLANET than we have ever been before. You don't have The Big Picture. The Cuban Missile Crisis was NOTHING compared to this. NOTHING! It would appear (because he says so) Osama Bin Ladens goal is to remove U.S. military and commercial presence from Saudi Arabia, the holiest of Islamic lands. I say his ULTIMATE goal, is to lay his hands on the nuclear weapons that Pakistan possesses. If he does that, your children (or unborn children) will NEVER reach voting age.

To go in NOW and bomb the **** out of ANY innocent people, would only serve to unite Muslims everywhere against US. The situation in Pakistan is tenuous at best. Unite the Muslims, and you will almost be HANDING those nukes over to Bin Laden.

Let the covert people work their magic. Finally untie the hands of the CIA, and let them do what needs to be done on their end.

You may NEVER see a one for one payback for this act. Your lives HAVE changed, forever, and probably not for the better. Get used to it. Guns?
The bad guys are NOT going to come marching down Main St. in a straight line begging for you to pick them off. Gas masks? Any idea just how long it takes to properly fit one of those to your face? You don't have the time. Even if you DID, what makes you think it won't be a chemical agent that will kill you by simply touching ANY exposed skin, rather than by being inhaled? YOU DON'T HAVE THE BIG PICTURE.

I'll show you what's really wrong here. People are waving American flags, singing songs, etc. That's a good thing. It would also be a real revelation, if those SAME people, would EAGERLY encourage and accompany their sons and daughters down to the military recruiter when they turned 18 yrs of age. But that's not the case here. Most will say they had planned to send THEIR kids to college. Military service would "interfere" with their careers. Lot of talk on the tv right now, but the talk is cheap, cause the numbers at the recruiting offices don't reflect ANY INCREASE WHATSOEVER in enlistees. So if push comes to shove, it will basically be the people you see in uniform RIGHT NOW, who will bear the brunt of any battle. Anyone wanting to do their share without military service, is totally free to travel to Pakistan, make your way to the Afghan/Pakistan frontier, buy yourself a nice AK-47 at the Pakistani side (very available, about $200), and cross the border into Afghanistan. Have yourself a ball. They don't take prisoners. In fact, if you are captured, you will probably be raped silly, and then skinned alive. Do I see a show of hands?

I am NOT unpatriotic, nor will I refuse an order to fly into harms way. Chances are I will never be shot down. That is a good thing. It's a good thing because I probably won't live through the impact with mother earth. If I do, this soon to be 50 yr old man, will probably not be much of a match for an 18-25 year old heavily armed Taliban fanatic, who is in peak physical condition.

I feel that I am SOMEWHAT qualified to make the above statements, because after two years of being on this forum, I hear young people who are OBVIOUSLY more pre-occupied with watching the latest Hollywood ****, than performing ANY type of public service.

Flame the **** out of my **** if you want, I don't care. I KNOW the truth hurts. Flaming the **** out of me will NOT prevent me from being ordered overseas if there is a shooting war. I will go. I will miss my wife and daughters. I signed on for this type of **** over 25 yrs ago. I have been serving longer than many of you have been alive. I have AT LEAST 6 more yrs to go. Will you, or your son or daughter, be my 18 yr old replacement when the time comes?

George Grand

Oops, I forgot THIS. NEVER, EVER, conjure up pictures of the attack on Pearl Harbor and compare them to this. The attack on Pearl Harbor was an unprovoked attack on a MILITARY TARGET. Most of the lives lost were MILITARY, with minimum civilian casualties. This is MUCH more horrible, in MOST peoples eyes. Yet we have no observable increase in military recruitment and enlistment. After Pearl Harbor, there was HARDLY an able bodied man left in America NOT IN UNIFORM, or trying to get into one. Tom Brokaw knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he called them "The Greatest Generation", because that's EXACTLY what they were.

steve simmons

George- I like your post. It very clearly expresses my feelings as well. I too served our country because I felt it was the right thing to do. It was not a career choice I wanted for the long term but it was the right thing to do. I have been out for over 10 years but would go back in if I was needed. My brother is currently serving the US Army in Alaska and as of right now does not know if or when he will be relocating to another part of the world. My son who is 17 has been planning on going into the service for the last 2 years. He has not changed his mind even though his mother and grandparents do not want him to go in. I am proud of him. There is a price that must be paid for the freedoms we all want and expect. Someone must be willing to pay this price.

George Grand

Thank you Steve. I did not post it to draw attention to myself, or to draw attention to other vets. We know WHAT we did, and WHY we did it. I did it to show some people that the coffee is on the stove, and it's ABOUT time some people woke up and smelled it.

George Grand

wangotango68

i agree with EVERYTHING george said,but how is the us forces going to stop the way a group of people think? that is a question
that nobody has addressed yet.

scott

Ron-P

As far as I know, man has used (in war) every weapon he has developed except the nuclear weapons. Now is the perfect time to let those babies loose all over Afganistan and lets also include Iraq, Iran and Pakistan while we are there. Take'em all out, Forever.

To go in NOW and bomb the **** out of ANY innocent people, would only serve to unite Muslims everywhere against US.

Not if get all of'em.


No Peace Out~:D

George Grand

Ron,

I believe if you grab a history book, you'll see that we dropped a couple of nukes on the Japanese at the end of World War II.

You and I have had our differences in the past, and it got pretty ugly. We seemed to patch things up, and I am determined not to let it ever get that ugly again.

I am not saying we shouldn't make the people who are responsible pay. We will EVENTUALLY do that. It just may not be on your terms, or as quickly as you would like. I am not a hippie type peace freak. I don't think love is the answer. I think understanding, and real good thinkers are the key
to keeping our planetary temperature below 2,000 degrees right now.

If I understand your position correctly, I'm tempted to ask, "How would you feel about bombing whatever city Timothy McVeigh came from?" Because some people, a lot in fact, still think there was a third individual involved.

Good night my man, I'm not getting into an argument over this.

George Grand

George Grand

U.S. forces cannot PERMANENTLY change the way people think. Military force can modify their behavior by reducing their will to fight. However, these guys DON'T fight like us. If we fight like them, we become the animal as well.

We can help the rebel forces in Afghanistan to rid THEIR country of the lunatics who are controlling it right now. They can help us by providing US with info as they conduct the rebellion. Then WE can send in the real "dark forces" that we possess, capture those people ALIVE if possible, and try them before the whole world. WE, THE UNITED STATES are the ones to set the example for true freedom on this planet.

George Grand

Ron-P

I believe if you grab a history book, you'll see that we dropped a couple of nukes on the Japanese at the end of World War II.

Thanks for the clairification, I did not know.

You and I have had our differences in the past, and it got pretty ugly. We seemed to patch things up, and I am determined not to let it ever get that ugly again.

Nor would I.

George, to sum things up best, which should also answer your question, is that I am not trying to start an arguement with my past comments, they moreso reflect how I feel about the events of 9-11. I want to see revenge, but, not on the innocent. That also goes for the city McVeigh came from. Sometimes though, I see the twin tower footage on TV and those thoughts (like those in my previous post) return. It is very painful to watch and think of all those families torn apart, kids without their dad or mom or both, all the freinds and families destroyed for just going to work. It really makes me want to nuke'em all, but I know that is not the answer.


Peace Out~:D

George Grand

I know you're a decent man Ron. I want to see those suckers pay also. We will. Maybe not as quickly as we would like, nor as harshly, but they will answer for this.

Also for EVERYBODY, if you're not aware of it, an incredibly potent weapon, in ANY war, is DISINFORMATION. Anybody know FOR SURE, that we have special forces on the ground in Afghanistan? Maybe we do, and maybe we don't. That's the same thing Bin-Laden is thinking right now. We need to get him out of the caves, and on the move. He is easier to find that way.

To learn more about DISINFORMATION, try and read or rent, "Eye of the Needle", & "The Man Who Never Was". You'll be surprised what a little disinfo can do.

George

mcowan

Killing Bin Laden will only create a martyr. Holding him prisoner will
inspire his comrades to take hostages to demand his release.
Therefore, I suggest we do neither but consider the folowing:

Let the Special Forces, Seals or whatever covertly capture him, fly him
to an undisclosed hospital and have surgeons quickly perform a complete
sex change operation. Then we return her to Afghanistan to live as a woman
under the Taliban...What do you think?

madmax

The Bin Madam approach. This is the best retaliation I've heard yet! Let him live out his life that way. I say we do that to all terrorists and send them all there. I think inteligent action is much better than action provoked by anger. I think he would love to see us go in there and bomb Afghanistan.
madmax

PETERNG

George, I’m with you, until all of us realize and accept our full responsibilities and pay our due to our country, then we will be able to spell: “A M E R I C A N “(remember what Kennedy said?). Let ask ourselves a very basic question: how many of us actually teach our kid to go to vote on Tuesday mornings? We take so many things for granted in this country but we do very little things… It’s time to wake up and do what we need to do to be a responsible CITIZEN, at least a good start to the right direction…

George Grand

I like the **** out of mcowan's idea! What an imagination. Thanks man, I needed a good laugh, and I got one.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)