Diminishing returns to speakers

cdn5003

I have, like many of you, made the progression from tv sound to cheap HTIB. Then from cheap HTIB to a real receiver, powered subwoofer, and adequate speakers. Finally replacing all the speakers and subwoofer with "real" speakers and a "real" subwoofer.

Each step in this progression showed objectively marked improvement in audio quality. The first step, adding a HTIB made everything sound much more powerful and clear. The passive 8" sub sounded great compared to what the tv was putting out. For $300 this was clearly worth it.

The next step was buying the infamous ht-s790 from onkyo for $450. This system crushed my first HTIB. Having a powered sub and bigger speakers filled the room with sound. This upgrade was also a worthwhile solution compared to tv speakers. While it was a noticeable improvement over my first HTIB the increase in quality was less per dollar spent.

My final step to where I am now (in my sig) was upgrading all my speakers and subwoofer. This cost $800 and yielded an enormous gain in quality but again diminished slightly in the performance per dollar department.

Many of you can relate to this progression i'm sure and have made many more steps than this. My first assumption is that I would need to spend around $3,000 on a system to see marked improvement from where I am at now having spent around $1,000. My second assumption is that around this performance point subjectivity begins to take over. The type of sound people prefer (warm, harsh, etc....) begins to matter more. i.e. A person could like a much cheaper warm sounding system more than an expensive harsh sounding one.

Are my assumptions correct?

If they are than the itch to upgrade shouldn't be so bad among us, at least single step upgrades should be discouraged.

ben62670

Well for HT the RTI's are about where you will stop seeing huge improvements. If you are into music then LSI's with separate amplification is where you will stop seeing huge improvements. I am not saying it doesn't get any better. You can do much better, but it starts to get real expensive. Polk is the leader in bang for the buck in my book. I don't see any other companies able to provide as much for the dollar as them. The lower Polk series IMHO are really good for the price, but not where I would be satisfied. Better than 90% of the stuff out there dollar for dollar yes, but not $hit eating grin impressive.
Ben

BjornB17

After my present upgrade cycle (Monitors to RTI, receiver to separate preamp and dual amps), i doub't i'd upgrade anything for a long time because I got very good deals on all the equipment, that to upgrade to something even a little better would be prohibitively expensive. But that makes me feel good because i won't have the itch and be able to say that it's a cheap upgrade.

steveinaz

The better your equipment gets, the better it has to be. Here's why; as the resolution of your system gets finer and finer, flaws become more noticeable. I call it the microscope effect. The flaws are mostly a poor job in the mixing room (software) when the music was mastered.

On a positive note, good recordings sound wonderful.

Climbing the audio ladder is a double-edged sword. What's good is excellent, what's bad is horrible.

BottomFeeder

^^I hate you for saying that!

You've said it here before & I hated it then too!

What's my problem? YOU'RE RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wuhhaaahhaaaaaaaaaa!

ben62670

BottomFeeder wrote: »

^^I hate you for saying that!

You've said it here before & I hated it then too!

What's my problem? YOU'RE RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wuhhaaahhaaaaaaaaaa!

I second that!

devani

one of the reasons that I ended up with LSi series....that's it for me...

Early B.

Cdn -- I can assure you that you won't be satisfied until you get into the Lsi series and separate amplification with an HT processor. So skip the Rti series altogether and go straight to the Lsi's. Your receiver won't be able to power them properly, so you'll need a powerful 5-channel amp along with your Lsi's.

My advice is a radical approach -- sell everything (except your sub, for now) and start over. Begin with 2-channel HT (front speakers only) and go from there. In th elong run, this approach is less costly and far more beneficial than slow, incremental upgrades.

Hawkeye

cdn5003 wrote: »

Many of you can relate to this progression i'm sure and have made many more steps than this. My first assumption is that I would need to spend around $3,000 on a system to see marked improvement from where I am at now having spent around $1,000. My second assumption is that around this performance point subjectivity begins to take over. The type of sound people prefer (warm, harsh, etc....) begins to matter more. i.e. A person could like a much cheaper warm sounding system more than an expensive harsh sounding one.

Are my assumptions correct?

If they are than the itch to upgrade shouldn't be so bad among us, at least single step upgrades should be discouraged.

cdn,
I don't think your first assumption is necessarily correct. I did an "upgrade" on speakers that cost the same amount as the originals. There was a definate turn for the better for no additional cost.

Your second point is well taken. Personal preference begins after we buy our first set of speakers or piece of gear. From then on, it can be a vicious cycle. As we move up the chain, our likes and dislikes become the deciding factor. While I think my kit sounds terrific, I could invite 5 people into my house and get 5 different opinions on it.

The dollar/benefit ratio is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. To me, if it sounds good, it was worth the money. I've never been able to say to myself if I spend $x, I will get a XX% improvement. I don't know how I'd quantify that.

These audio sites are what keeps all these audio manufacturers in business!! We get on here and read what we're missing! Hence the desire to upgrade and get what everybody else seems to have that we don't.

Gordon

Ricardo

I have a different view from others here; for me, if the system will be used only for TV, DVD's and gaming, the RTi line (and maybe the monitor line...I have not heard it so cannot offer an opinion there) is the best value you will get.
I am known for suffering from upgraditis (sp?), and I have my Home Theater with RTi8's, CSi5 and some JBL surrounds. I have absolutely no desire to upgrade. I use a Denon receiver. I did purchase external amplification once (you know.... you need a minimum of 200 wpc.....), but after listening for a while I decided that the difference I was hearing did not justify the extra cost, and returned them (Three 200WPC Outlaw monos).

If the system is also used for 2 channel music, then the story is a different one, and the improvements using "better" gear and speakers is more readily noticeable, and enjoyable.

So if you have any interest in 2 channel, and you have the extra space, my recommendation would be to save the extra money you'd spend in speakers and amps for your HT, and start a dedicated 2 channel system (You can have a great 2 ch system for less than you might think). If you are not interested in 2 channel, then enjoy what you have now.

Ricardo

Hawkeye wrote: »

These audio sites are what keeps all these audio manufacturers in business!! We get on here and read what we're missing! Hence the desire to upgrade and get what everybody else seems to have that we don't.

Gordon

Absolutely true!!! But the key here is that you don't just buy things because everybody has them; buy them, and if they don't give YOU the difference YOU expected, then sell them. That's why buying used is such a great option; you can try almost anything you want, and sell it with no or little loss.

awe-d-o-file

Think about it. Cars: Corvette vs Ferrari. Yes I prefer the Italian but is it worth the diff? How about wine? Is the $200 bottle 10X better than the $20 dollar bottle? No. How about hotels? Is a $500 room 10X better than a $50 Motel 6 room? How about restaurants? Is a $400 dollar meal 10X better than a $40 meal? You can go on and on. High end stuff has a logrhythmic return curve.

Monster Jam

cdn5003, In short I'll just say that I completely agree with you. Yes, there IS a diminishing return in quality vs. dollar paid. awe-d-o-file points it out in an excellent analogy:

awe-d-o-file wrote: »

Think about it. Cars: Corvette vs Ferrari. Yes I prefer the Italian but is it worth the diff? How about wine? Is the $200 bottle 10X better than the $20 dollar bottle? No. How about hotels? Is a $500 room 10X better than a $50 Motel 6 room? How about restaurants? Is a $400 dollar meal 10X better than a $40 meal? You can go on and on. High end stuff has a logrhythmic return curve.

Many customers of high-end audio equipment (and virtually every other consumer market as seen in the example above) view this as a hobby - a passion even. They don't necessarily attempt to quantify, or justify, the purchase. Its just what they love to do. So ultimately you have to ask yourself if you fall into this category.

walk

You have a pretty nice setup now. If you were going to do anything I'd say get a better receiver. Everything starts there.

Yes you'll probably hear a difference if you move up to i.e. RTi speakers, even more with a better receiver, but it will be diminishing returns. You might think about getting some FXi for the (side) surrounds, and a 7.1 receiver and move the M40s to the rear. Dipole surrounds made a big difference in my room. Then if you like those, think about upgrading the fronts and center later on.

You don't need to spend a fortune either, I bought my entire system on closeout. Every time Polk updates their model lines the old ones go on sale. Watch out for those sales. For example I paid $500 for the RTi 150 towers, regularly $750-800 EACH.. I just got the FXi for $200, regularly $350.. got the subwoofer for $160 shipped ($500-600) etc..

Probably spent about $2500 total on the audio system but it would retail for almost $5000.

awe-d-o-file

Another thing I forgot to point out regarding high end anything and its higher cost is that these high end items are most often made in limited quantities and never mass marketed. Also if it is a product vs a service it is seldom made in China or another low cost manufacturing area in vast numbers that can lower costs. These two points play a big part in the higher cost that is not often "in line" ratio-wise with higher quality.

zx_toth

I too have been wondering about the diminishing return scenerio ...

In regards to speakers and electronics the greatest leaps have occurred from CRT TV speakers to RM speakers now to LSi setup. Now with the inclusion of a Bluray player (just bought a PS3 on Saturday) the sound from Bluray movies is a huge leap forward ... since each leap has been very noticeable I wonder what the the limits to this 'leaping' when does it become more of a 'hop' rather than a leap? At some point I am envisioning spending $5000 and only getting a small hop forward and being upset that 'Thats all I get for 5 grand?'.

At this point I am still hoping to get 'leaps' or large hops in SQ from getting a seperate Pre/Pro, a reference Bluray player (once some good ones come out), and a vastly upgraded subwoofer. After that I have a sense that I wont be getting huge leaps any longer ... as improvements will be marginal, subjective or as previously mentioned prohibitively priced.

Once I finalize my current rig with Rotel seperate Pre/Pro, full Lsi speakers (currently I only have Lsi 25s and LSiC up front), and possibly SVS Ultra 13 I will assess as to how much more would needed to be spent to make another LEAP. If a further leap were to be had if I blew 10 grand on upgrading things from that setup I would consider it in 6-8 years but not right away. Perhaps prior to dropping more G's on upgrading equipment one could experiment with wiring and acoustics, bass management systems.

Im not quite there yet though so Im looking forward to a few more leaps.

Zsolt

iskandam

Upgrading to an HDTV and PS3 is really what set me on this vicious, endless cycle of upgrading. I realized how much I was missing and just had to get the audio up to speed with the incredible HD video. Budget be damned, a year later I'm still not done yet. I ended up with a complete LSi set up.

The problem is with these guys for the first time I was able to hear differences between cables and higher quality separates. I have to say though that it has definitely been a fun journey and an incredible learning experience. I just have to be careful not to spend all my savings

NewHTguy

I started out saying I did not want to spend more than $1K (for everything) and I've spent over $2K. I believe it is important to make the distinction between the difference in sound quality and the enjoyment. The question is whether the increase in sound quality (whether large or small) gives you much more enjoyment. In wine and coffee tasting there are people who are certified as "super tasters." They literally have more taste buds than the average person. I've had expensive wine and did not enjoy it any more than $10/bottle. I'm sure some people can discern quality differences that I cannot. For them it might make sense to spend $5-10K on a pair of speakers. For me that would be a waste because I can hardle tell the difference. So my audio journey is slowing down. Maybe I'll switch out my center since everyone says the Csi5 is much better than the CS2, or buy an amp just to see if there is a difference. But for the most part I am content and have no regrets.

Steven Menk

I recently went from a $500-ish when new Kenwood to an Onkyo 905. The difference was unsettling in terms of where I thought I was on the diminishing returns curve.

am_dragon

I might be a bit different. I started working in a stereo shop right out of high school. I bought a decent Onkyo stereo receiver and a pair of bookshelf speakers. Loved that system. Didn't want to upgrade because I wanted something that would satisfy my ear. After spending good quality time with high end stuff circa 1989/90 that wasn't easy to do on a budget. Finally I broke down I picked up a new Onkyo 6.1 receiver 4 RTi38's, a CSi40, a pair of RTi70's, and a Polk Sub. So my first system is what many of my friends are upgrading to. I figure I spent the money once. Don't think I'll replace that later, think is this good enough, and enjoy it.

At some point I will need to "upgrade" but it will be more of a replacement. If I were where you are right now, I would go out and listen to good systems (well set a budget) and decide what I ultimately want. Then save up for it, and buy the whole system in one shot, but that's just me.

broncsrule21@

I realize I don't NEED to spend any more money on my set-up, but I will. Trust me, my wife can't tell the difference between our old Infinitys and our new RTis. But these kind of little pleasures keep me sane in day to day life.
Right now, I am considering buying an amp to run my Rtis even though I am not convinced there would be a huge jump. But something inside me tells me I need to find out for my self. Such is life...