Turnable help - Music Hall MMF-5

AndyGwis
AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
edited August 2008 in 2 Channel Audio
Hey Guys,

Just got a Music Hall MMF-5 the other day to replace my 2.1. Really like the looks and feel of this table. Solid and pretty.

I think I have it set up correctly but am not 100% sure. I followed the instructions implicitly for the tracking force, etc. and that seemed to go well. However, I am a little concerned about the stylus being damaged during shipping; or possibly I am just naive. The stylus seems to be almost parallel to the cartridge, and the bottom of the cartridge (Goldring 1012x) appears to almost be dragging on the records during playback.

Is this the style of this cartridge, or did the stylus possibly get bent upward during shipment? I've also found many of my records to be warped which kind of sucks.

Any turntable help would be appreciated. I just want to be sure I'm getting the most out of this table. I am using a Music Hall Speed Box (which is cool) and my phono pre is a Meridian 501. It gives me headphone output and some other cool features for my rig so it will be staying.
Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
Post edited by AndyGwis on
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    DO NOT adjust any of the screws! How to fix coming up to a post here shortly.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    Take the glass platter off again, remove the belt and the spindle/platter support. Reinstall the spindle/platter support with the threads facing up. You will have a smooth, rounded spindle and a threaded spindle. Just make sure that they [the threaded side] are facing up when you install it.

    Put the belt back on, then the platter and readjust everything as if you had never messed with it before. When you are done, there should be about a millimeter to two between the housing of the stylus and the LP.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    I'm pretty sure I have the threaded side of the spindle (metal dolly) facing upward as that is what I screw my record clamp into. . .

    But, I can re-install the platter, belt, etc. if you think that will make a difference.

    My idea would have been to bend the stylus back down and/or get a new stylus. The tonearm and cart seeem to be in fine shape so I wasn't planning to mess with them.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    No, it won't help. If you have it set up with the threads up and the tracking weight is correct, you should be good to go. At this point, I would call them up and request a replacement needle.

    Personally, I would not bend the stylus for fear of twisting the needle in a manner which tears the LP's up....but that's just me.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited August 2008
    Grab a magnifying glass and look at the stylus; maybe it is an almost horizontal "arm", and at the end you have the tip pointing down? That's how my Benz is.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
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    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    Further note....on mine, the needle goes up when the tonearm goes down on the LP about 1mm. This has been normal from day one Andy.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • awe-d-o-file
    awe-d-o-file Posts: 146
    edited August 2008
    There is no VTA adjustment and Music Hall includes the Goldring with the table. I like Treitz3's response. The platter might be sitting too high if you did not seat its double plinth properly. Good luck!


    ET

    System: MF Trivista SACD > Placette passive> CJ passive horizontal bi-amp> MF 2500A(LF) MF2100(HF) > 1.2TL's

    Other: Speltz silver Eichmann IC's & speaker wire, Econotweaks Detail Magnifiers, PS Audio P-300(source), R. Gray 600, Al Sekala's AC R/C filters, R. Gray HT PC's, Oyaide R-1's,WPC-Z , M-1, Herbie's & DIY Isolation
    Room: Qty 7 - 4' tall 18" diam. bass traps, Qty 4 - 4' X 2' X 4" panels. All DIY - man my wife is tolerant!
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    so, if you look at the table eye level while a record is spinning, can you see any space between the record and the bottom of the cartridge? If mine has any space, it's unseeable by human eye. if you're is 1mm away, I'd say I need a new needle.

    how much do they cost, how easy are they to install?
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    Dunno about the cost. To install? Easy as making ice.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    Are you certain that the tracking force is done correctly? Man, I hate to ask that.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited August 2008
    There should be more than 1 mm between the cartridge and the record. Mine has probably around 2 mm.

    You either have too much tracking force, the stylus is bent, or there's some other setting issue. If there's no VTA adjustment, it could be the platter is not sitting where it should. When the stylus is sitting on the record, is the arm parallel to the record? If it is, then it is either stylus of tracking force.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,766
    edited August 2008
    Andy,
    Was this a brand new table/cartridge or used? If its a new cartridge, then I'd say your setup is wrong. Its unusual for a stylus to be bent back towards the cartridge leaving it to ride low. Usually they break away, or get bent to one side.

    If its a used cartridge, then its possible that the suspension on the cantilever is weak and flexing too much. This usually only happens on carts that are 10+ years old though.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    it was used but seems to have hardly been used. I think the stylus got bent, that's the most logical reason. I'm not sure if it's affecting sound but it looks odd to have the cartridge skimming on / just above the record as closerly as this one is.

    Maybe I'll take a photo to show what it looks like. I doubt anything is wrong with the cart / arm. Setup may be the culprit cuz I'm an idiot, but it looks correct to me.

    While I've got you guys here, anyone have thoughts on using the meridian 501 as the phono pre?
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • candyliquor35m
    candyliquor35m Posts: 2,267
    edited August 2008
    This happened to me once and it was the tracking force. Did you balance the tonearm to where it suspends in thin air and then set the weight to zero before you set the tracking force?
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    yes, it was floating like a magic carpet, I set to zero, I then moved the weight to the specified 17.5 value. I guess I can "lighten" the force to see if that helps. . . but just looking at the cartridge on it's own makes me think the stylus ain't so stylin these days.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited August 2008
    I say that's a clear sign telling you that you need to upgrade.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited August 2008
    Hey Andy, just a thought here.......is there an object down where the spindle goes that might prevent it from going all of the way down?
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    Well, I did try to buy a MMF-7 that was juicily priced on Agon about two days after I unpacked the MMF-5. I have no problem pulling the trigger when a good deal comes along.

    I do have problems selling my other gear that has been replaced, though. Lot of FS threads created. . . and then self-bumping said threads.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    Okay, so I need a new stylus.

    Where to I find a replacement needle, and will I have any trouble installing it? Just pop it in where the old one was? What's the best way to remove the incumbent stylus (do I need to unscrew cart to take out old, re-install new?

    Thanks! Cartridge is a Goldring 1012x if that matters.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • SCompRacer
    SCompRacer Posts: 8,498
    edited August 2008
    You can get a replacement stylus from Needle Doctor, Music Direct, Amazon, etc. To remove, hold the cartridge body and slide the stylus out. The replacement stylus should include instructions.

    If the arm does not have a removable head shell, I prefer to remove the cartridge to change the stylus. The reason for that is to prevent applying pressure to and possibly damaging the tonearm bearings. Other folks may feel differently. You should check cartridge alignment afterwards anyway, as the replacement stylus will most likely not be located exactly where the old one was.
    Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 *
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,766
    edited August 2008
    You may want to consider a different cartridge all together. Replacement styli are not cheap and for what that one costs, you may be able to spend just a bit more and get a nicer cartridge. Do your research.

    FYI: LP Gear sells the stylus much cheaper than Needle Doctor
    http://www.lpgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=LG&Product_Code=GLDD012GX

    For that price, you could look at one of the Denon High Output Moving Coils (DL-160?) which are generally pretty highly though of. Just a bit more could get you a Benz Micro Silver too.

    Or for under $100, you could get a Shure M97xE or AT ML440
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • candyliquor35m
    candyliquor35m Posts: 2,267
    edited August 2008
    Did you try a lighter tf? My at440mla recommended a 1.4 tf but my tt mechanic recommended a 1.0 since my technics sl-1800 has a fairly heavy platter and with joe's clamp, I am not having any problems running at 1.0.
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  • Gretsch6136
    Gretsch6136 Posts: 80
    edited August 2008
    Andy,

    In your post you mentioned you dialled in a tracking force of 17.5 !!!!!!!!!!!! If you truly have 17.5 grams on that needle, then that's your problem right there!
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    Maybe that is the problem.

    I thought that is what the directions said, but I did hook it up in a hurry.

    How can a needle be that expensive? Am I missing something? I thought it would cost a few bucks for a needle that would just slide right back in. Mine busted off (long stupid story). Hate to think that little piece of metal cost that much. . .

    Sensitive / fragile ****, btw.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    maybe my terminology is off. . . the needle broke off. Hoping I can just pop a new one in. I'm starting to think that isn't as easy as I was hoping, though.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,766
    edited August 2008
    Gretsch6136 wrote: »
    Andy,

    In your post you mentioned you dialled in a tracking force of 17.5 !!!!!!!!!!!! If you truly have 17.5 grams on that needle, then that's your problem right there!

    That's in Newtons force, not grams. The MMF is using SI units. 17.5 is nothing to worry about. Any tonearm that uses grams would likely not be able to adjust to more than 5 grams unless a headshell weight was used.
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,766
    edited August 2008
    AndyGwis wrote: »
    Maybe that is the problem.

    I thought that is what the directions said, but I did hook it up in a hurry.

    How can a needle be that expensive? Am I missing something? I thought it would cost a few bucks for a needle that would just slide right back in. Mine busted off (long stupid story). Hate to think that little piece of metal cost that much. . .

    Sensitive / fragile ****, btw.

    The majority of cost is always in the stylus/cantilever.

    Well, there is a lot of technology in that little 'needle'. Finely honed diamond tips, super light thin walled cantilevers, often made of special metals like boron, special materials in the suspension for the cantilever.

    If the cost is giving you that much sticker shock, then perhaps you should move to a more entry level cartridge, like the Shure M97xE. Its a fine cartridge and you can replace the whole thing for $55 if you get ham thumbed and break the cantilever.

    http://www.amazon.com/Shure-M97xE-High-Performance-Magnetic-Cartridge/dp/B00006I5SB/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1219022190&sr=8-1
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    that Shure cartridge might not be a bad idea.

    I know these things can be expensive. I was just hoping my stupid mistake wouldn't be a costly one. Dumbest (audio) thing I've done in a while, but guess this stuff happens.

    I may just take a break from vinyl for a while till I figure out my gameplan.
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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  • AndyGwis
    AndyGwis Posts: 3,655
    edited August 2008
    Also, I believe the tracking force is probably 1.75 grams but it is between 17 on 18 on the weight which is probably why I said 17.5

    Anyway, I may just take this as a sign to give up on vinyl. . . or maybe to upgrade the entire cart :)
    Stereo Rig: Hales Revelation 3, Musical Fidelity CD-Pre 24, Forte Model 3 amp, Lexicon RT-10 SACD, MMF-5 w/speedbox, Forte Model 2 Phono Pre, Cardas Crosslink, APC H15, URC MX-950, Lovan Stand
    Bedroom: Samsung HPR-4252, Toshiba HD-A2, HK 3480, Signal Cable, AQ speaker cable, Totem Dreamcatchers, SVS PB10-NSD, URC MX-850
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