Which type of cable

ben62670

Wow tuggy once again you show your thin skin. Nobody said your system isn't any good. I have seen where improvements can be made to get the most out of your system. Take it as you want. Not everyone has the money, or want to improve their system. If you are completely satisfied then rock on. People are sharing their experience, and advising you on what would really help improve it. Most just see it as a shame that 1.2TL's are being under driven. Maybe a Polkie that lives near can bring over some gear to demo. But like you stated if you are happy with your system rock on;)
Ben

tugboat

ben62670 wrote: »

This is where you don't seem to get it. Read all the post you see about guys with decent to better systems, and their reviews of what they have used in their systems. F1nut, and others have been in this hobby for many years. They have heard many different nice systems with many different components. Myself and many others have gone out to HiFi stores, and listened to very very expensive gear that costs more than any car I have ever owned. There is no "proof" that would be like me having proof that one type of food tastes better than another. Open your mind and try some different stuff out. BTW what are you using for a receiver?
Ben

I'm using a Denon 5803A. It has 200wpc into 6 ohms.

I understand that some people hear a difference. Don't know how or why, but I believe them. It just seems that when someone asks how it's possible, they get jumped on. If someone says it sounds different because of the different impedences in cables from different makers, then that sounds like it should be something that can be measured. Now if the person says they don't know why they sound different, then it should be left at that. There will always be people that need/want proof and there's nothing wrong with it. On the other hand, those claiming there is a difference should be ready for someone to ask how or why.

Just because someone says they don't hear a difference doesn't mean they deserve to be told there's something wrong with their hearing. To do so is an attack on them. I always do my best to compose my posts without aiming at any particular individual.

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

Damn dude you are so one tracked. OK you can measure some stuff, but what about all the other stuff that science hasn't figured out how to measure? How many scientist have said the world is flat? What about the number of stars? Till Galileo made the telescope it was thought there were only 2200 or so. Being stuck on what can be scientifically proven is just plain ignorant. So someone having a tiny mind, and focusing only on what can be proven (so far) you are locking yourself into a teeny tiny world.

I would think someone who believes what can be proven with science would be a logically minded person not ignorant. As for your analogy, I think we have came for enough scientifically speaking to be able to measure electricity passing through a wire. Do you think cable designers blindly throw together cables and hope for the best? No, they have set measurements they want to meet, ex. with component video they may be looking for 95% + shielding, sweep testing to 4.5 GHz, 75ohm impedance, etc. So if the companies are using measurements to design their cables, why can they not be used to determine cable "quality"?

I many times hear SC Analog IIs being describes as a warm sounding cable. Why is this not measurable? I would imagine a higher than average capacitance causing a high frequency roll off. A simple test could be hooking the cable from a CDP output to a PC input, and measure the response. Compare the original recording to the PC recording, and the recessed highs should be easily seen.

To people with no experience with different cables hook up with a local Polkie, and go see for yourself before you jump on the ignorance wagon. If you don't hear a difference great, if you do you will have opened up your audio experience to a different level. If you try different cables on mass market gear don't expect much. As for these half assed studies who are the people in the studies. 90% off the population think that Bose makes killer HT stuff. Who are you?
Ben

There are a few issues with this. It is a good idea to try different systems and different gear etc, but the issue is its all new. You are hearing different speakers, different gear, a different room, etc on top of different cables. You would have to be very familiar with the system and source material to properly compare cables, IMO.

As for the studies the most commonly quoted one is the Roger Russell article, he was a engineer at McIntosh labs. Other support given is usually the John Dunlavy email of Dunlavy Labs, as well as the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity PC review.

ben62670

Tuggy how about forgetting all the numbers. If you take a same gage wires with the same usual specs of R/I/C, but leave out all other factors such as the dielectric constraint of the insulation, or the actual construction of the wire itself you are focusing on way too little information. For instance I use only solid conductor wires in my IC's. I have found that too much of the musical information is absorbed with a bunch of ultra fine strands. Another thing is the wire insulation. I have found that Teflon over PVC, or many other type of insulation is Superior. I believed exactly as you do a few years ago. If you are serious about music look on ebay for some used PBJ's. You can get two sets for around $60. This is a small investment for you to check into. If you don't hear a difference sell them for what you paid for them;) Minimal loss, and there is your proof. I can't tell you what you hear. The proof thing is annoying to me. It would be like me asking to prove what you hear. People are different than measuring equipment. F1nut although coming off as abrasive at times once told me that "a mind is like a parachute if it isn't open than it doesn't work" (I am sure I messed that up a bit).
Just something to chew on.
Ben

Gaara

F1nut wrote: »

Saying that cables don't make a difference is not a recommendation.

Nice strawman. JohnK recommend monoprice...is that not a valid recommendation? He feels that the cable won't make a difference, so recommend something good quality on the cheap.

If I was going to recommenced it would be Canare LV-77S.

Anyone read the Times Article? It is on speaker wire though...

The manufacturers and sellers of audio goods like to stay above the fray. Cables are a highly lucrative item that may account for a modest percentage of sales but a greater percentage of profit.

Even audio manufacturers not directly involved in the cable business like to steer clear of the debate.

Polk Audio, a well respected manufacturer of loudspeakers in Baltimore, no longer makes cables but declined an invitation to set up a listening test in its laboratories. One reason it gave was that the test could affect relationships with audio stores. "We would be hearing from every retailer in the country," said Paul Dicomo, communications director for Polk Audio.

tugboat

ben62670 wrote: »

Tuggy how about forgetting all the numbers. If you take a same gage wires with the same usual specs of R/I/C, but leave out all other factors such as the dielectric constraint of the insulation, or the actual construction of the wire itself you are focusing on way too little information. For instance I use only solid conductor wires in my IC's. I have found that too much of the musical information is absorbed with a bunch of ultra fine strands. Another thing is the wire insulation. I have found that Teflon over PVC, or many other type of insulation is Superior. I believed exactly as you do a few years ago. If you are serious about music look on ebay for some used PBJ's. You can get two sets for around $60. This is a small investment for you to check into. If you don't hear a difference sell them for what you paid for them;) Minimal loss, and there is your proof. I can't tell you what you hear. The proof thing is annoying to me. It would be like me asking to prove what you hear. People are different than measuring equipment. F1nut although coming off as abrasive at times once told me that "a mind is like a parachute if it isn't open than it doesn't work" (I am sure I messed that up a bit).
Just something to chew on.
Ben

I hear you. I'm just not a critical listener like some here and want that to be respected.

ben62670

Gaara wrote: »

#1
.... As for your analogy, I think we have came for enough scientifically speaking to be able to measure electricity passing through a wire.
#2
Do you think cable designers blindly throw together cables and hope for the best?....
#3
I many times hear SC Analog IIs being describes as a warm sounding cable. Why is this not measurable? I would imagine a higher than average capacitance causing a high frequency roll off. A simple test could be hooking the cable from a CDP output to a PC input, and measure the response. Compare the original recording to the PC recording, and the recessed highs should be easily seen.
#4
There are a few issues with this. It is a good idea to try different systems and different gear etc, but the issue is its all new. You are hearing different speakers, different gear, a different room, etc on top of different cables. You would have to be very familiar with the system and source material to properly compare cables, IMO.
#5
As for the studies the most commonly quoted one is the Roger Russell article, he was a engineer at McIntosh labs. Other support given is usually the John Dunlavy email of Dunlavy Labs, as well as the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity PC review.

#1
Way to over simplified. Not even going to bother with this one.
#2
They sure do. 99% of the population thinks that TIB's are the bomb with there 700-1200 watts receivers. Bose wave radios:rolleyes: Most cable companies that you find in the average store just care about a pretty package with some cute audio catch phrases, and a pretty package. Come on now lets be real. Do you think even a small percent of the pop has any idea of what really is required of a good cable?
#3
This would be interesting, but I would not hold this as absolute truth.
#4
Yep Yep Yep Yep Yep
Don't forget new stuff needs time to burn in.(here is another debate:eek:)
#5
I take these studies as mostly blah blah blah. Way too many variables involved here. Where are the listeners position, is this an open room with a bunch of chairs all over.


Ben

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

#1
Way to over simplified. Not even going to bother with this one.
#2
They sure do. 99% of the population thinks that TIB's are the bomb with there 700-1200 watts receivers. Bose wave radios:rolleyes: Most cable companies that you find in the average store just care about a pretty package with some cute audio catch phrases, and a pretty package. Come on now lets be real. Do you think even a small percent of the pop has any idea of what really is required of a good cable?
#5
I take these studies as mostly blah blah blah. Way too many variables involved here. Where are the listeners position, is this an open room with a bunch of chairs all over.
Ben

#1 Why? Is that not the job of a interconnect, to send a electrical signal between two pieces of equipment? If the signal is passed from A->B and the exact signal is passed, would that not be a perfect interconnect?

#2 I would think if this were true we would see more variety with cables. Instead we see lots of low capacitance high bandwidth well shielded cables with tight fitting connectors. Not sure what the rest of your post pertains to, but I will take a go. Lets take your favorite, Monster. When you move up from say Video 2 -> Video 3s (same with Audio but I know video better, sold TVs for 4 years) you gain tighter fitting connections, nitrogen injected dielectric, and better shielding. So not just catch phrases.

#5 You said the studies were half assed, and asked who the people were in them...so check them out if you feel like doing so. No offense but I take the views of these studies over individuals any day. They are better controlled and people have less reason to exaggerate. No offense to you directly, as I do respect your opinion, but since you sell cables you have a financial incentive for people to believe in cables.

Ugh its almost 1...WTH. This is my last thread debating wires of any kind.

Face

Roger Russel wrote that article a long time ago, when McIntosh used attached power cords and barrier strips for speaker hookup. Since then, McIntosh products no longer has either feature in 90%+ of it's products. After Roger Russel left McIntosh, he went on to design speakers for other companies where I believe he uses Cardas internal wire.

ben62670

Gaara wrote: »

#1 Why? Is that not the job of a interconnect, to send a electrical signal between two pieces of equipment? If the signal is passed from A->B and the exact signal is passed, would that not be a perfect interconnect?

#2 I would think if this were true we would see more variety with cables. Instead we see lots of low capacitance high bandwidth well shielded cables with tight fitting connectors. Not sure what the rest of your post pertains to, but I will take a go. Lets take your favorite, Monster. When you move up from say Video 2 -> Video 3s (same with Audio but I know video better, sold TVs for 4 years) you gain tighter fitting connections, nitrogen injected dielectric, and better shielding. So not just catch phrases.

#5 You said the studies were half assed, and asked who the people were in them...so check them out if you feel like doing so. No offense but I take the views of these studies over individuals any day. They are better controlled and people have less reason to exaggerate. No offense to you directly, as I do respect your opinion, but since you sell cables you have a financial incentive for people to believe in cables.

Ugh its almost 1...WTH. This is my last thread debating wires of any kind.

Another round:p
Just for the newbies G knows how much I hate Monster;)

People are more into video now than ever. The signal in high res video needs to be kept intact. I see where you are going with this, but I have tried a lot of the cheaper cables offered, and they all sounded the same:(

As for the cables I sell. I sell them mainly to Polkies who pay way less for them than they should;) You will notice I did not mention to Tuggy that I sell cables. I don't push any of my cables on any members. People can read the reviews, and figure out if they are interested in them on their own. Members who have my cables make recommendations on them regularly. My views on cables have nothing to do with sales. People who have bought my cables know how little I charge. If I don't sell a set to someone its not going to kill me. The profit margin is minimal. Do you really believe that I would say anything different about cables if I didn't sell cables?
Ben

F1nut

So if the companies are using measurements to design their cables, why can they not be used to determine cable "quality"?

Very simple, measurements alone will not tell you how it sounds. For example, there is a speaker designer (I forget who, sorry) who stated that he designed a speaker with a perfectly flat response on paper, but it actually sounded terrible to the ear.

F1nut

If your player came with connecting cables, they're fine to use. Otherwise, a low-cost item from MonoPrice or similar does the job just as well as anything else, regardless of price.

Gaara, if you want to call that a recommendation, fine. What I see is someone saying that all cables sound the same.

F1nut

As for the studies the most commonly quoted one is the Roger Russell article, he was a engineer at McIntosh labs.

And now that he sells speakers, he uses Cardas chassis wire. When asked about that, he said something along the lines of, well, now I'm selling speakers. For some reason, hypocrite comes to mind.

F1nut

My last comment in this thread.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

RutgersFTW

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

Secrets put together a blind test between generic bundled power cords and Nordost Valhalla. ABX behind a felt curtain with controlled seating and music selections through suitably wonderful equipment. The end result was a 49% correct average, with self-proclaimed audiophiles averaging 47% and non-audiophiles 50%. A statistical wash, but not without its problems.

At the end of the feature, the organizer (who had written a glowing review for the Valhalla earlier) provided a reasoned explanation that I believe defuses much of this debate. The differences between amps (at the same power rating and same volume level within +/- .1db) and cables are in fact very subtle. Every test and comparison with controls demonstrates this. There is no night and day to be had in comparing similarly constructed audio products - they're all good at what they do.

However, since we listen to our gear almost all day and the same albums a lot, we learn and remember what specific passages sound like, or at least what we think they're supposed to sound like. If, then, a power cord comes into a system and after a month or so a listener is convinced there's been a slight improvement in listenability, dynamics, whatever - I'm all ears. This is a reasonable claim for a product to make - a subtle improvement in an already great setup.

This doesn't mean cable-makers should be let off the hook so easily, however. There is no excuse for the pricing of exotic cables. And again, telling someone that a $2,500 power cord will provide a dramatic improvement in their system has been largely proven dishonest at this point. It may improve things, but not in a readily apparent way that a group of experienced listeners can reliably identify.

So there: both the cable deniers and cable believers are wrong.

RutgersFTW

Also, the appeal to Google to vindicate cable believers isn't really a good idea since almost all of the cable articles that pop up first involve duping audiophiles (copper hanger v. monster cable, dishonest AB tests where tester keeps changing which cable he calls A and B to see if the listener can catch on after claiming night and day difference, etc...). As with all audio purchases, I've come to believe that once you buy it you should NEVER EVER google it or read more about it online as someone else will have a different opinion or measurement to challenge what you thought was great.

WilliamM2

F1nut wrote: »

And now that he sells speakers, he uses Cardas chassis wire. When asked about that, he said something along the lines of, well, now I'm selling speakers. For some reason, hypocrite comes to mind.

That is not what he said at all:

Cardas Wire and the IDS-25

If I don’t believe that expensive speaker wire makes an audible difference, why is it used inside the IDS-25 speaker system? The answer is very simple. IDS is out to sell speakers and not everyone believes in ordinary wire. The explanation is the same as what McIntosh found at shows and is described in the section above. Cardas wire does not sound any better but it may help to sell speakers to those who are concerned about wire and are not convinced that ordinary wire is just as good. The increase in cost is negligible compared to the drivers, enclosures and equalizer.

WilliamM2

However, since we listen to our gear almost all day and the same albums a lot, we learn and remember what specific passages sound like, or at least what we think they're supposed to sound like. If, then, a power cord comes into a system and after a month or so a listener is convinced there's been a slight improvement in listenability, dynamics, whatever - I'm all ears. This is a reasonable claim for a product to make - a subtle improvement in an already great setup.

Right, they can't point out these differences when switching back and forth within minutes, but they can pick out the differences when they have not even heard the other cable in a month, Very reasonable.:rolleyes:

Gaara

ben62670 wrote: »

Another round:p
Just for the newbies G knows how much I hate Monster;)

People are more into video now than ever. The signal in high res video needs to be kept intact. I see where you are going with this, but I have tried a lot of the cheaper cables offered, and they all sounded the same:(

As for the cables I sell. I sell them mainly to Polkies who pay way less for them than they should;) You will notice I did not mention to Tuggy that I sell cables. I don't push any of my cables on any members. People can read the reviews, and figure out if they are interested in them on their own. Members who have my cables make recommendations on them regularly. My views on cables have nothing to do with sales. People who have bought my cables know how little I charge. If I don't sell a set to someone its not going to kill me. The profit margin is minimal. Do you really believe that I would say anything different about cables if I didn't sell cables?
Ben

Ben, You didn't really cover any of my comments except the you making cables one. My video cable example was to refute your mass market cables comment, the catch phrases used actually will give improvements to consumers. Monster is probably the biggest out there, and I know that they design cables off of certain specifications. They don't just randomly throw together various coaxes and rcas and hope for the best.

You have your cable business in your signature, so you don't need to mention that you make them. As for your question, the answer is no with a qualifier. Even though you may be independent in fact, there still is a lack of perceived independence. Even though you may answer the questions exactly the same even if you didn't make cables, you still do and therefore still have more of a incentive then others for people to be believers.

F1nut wrote: »

My last comment in this thread.

Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

I won't try and refute any of your points, as this was your last comment. I completly agree. I was scammed by cable vendors before, going off user testimonials and impressive reviews. Never again.

ben62670

Gaara wrote: »

...you still do and therefore still have more of a incentive then others for people to be believers.

BS. Really plain and simple.
The recipe for my cables.
one set of 36" cables
Almost 20 feet of high quality wire
4 connectors
sheathing for the cables
I have to braid the wires by hand
terminated one end
sheath the cable, and hot glue.
add indicators
terminate the other end
Hot glue the sheathing.

And I charge only $60 a set

I make the ones I make only because they are a very solid deal. I don't make other types of cables because there are plenty of cables out there that Polkies could do just fine in the low end, and in the high end. I probably could make cables in the high end that would compete pretty well, but I don't want to include myself in the category of cable makers infested with hype(not all expensive cables are hype). I was making speaker cables for a bit, but there was too much synergy involved. I don't make them except on special request. You will not see me plugging my speaker cables. I rarely plug my IC's. Others that have used them do it for me:) People that have bought my cables rarely upgrade except to much more expensive cables. I take pride in my work. If you feel that my incentive here is just to make a couple bucks then please eat the corn out of my $hit. If you don't feel that my incentive is money driven then please accept my apology for my previous crude statement.

Bottom line
I share my opinion on cables because I didn't believe that cables made a difference in SQ. Running decent cables has really improved my listening experience. Thats it.
Thanks
Ben

Gaara

Ben. I will repeat, I do not feel in my personal opinion that your view point has been skewed by you making cables. My job requires me to have a questioning mind. I need to understand the difference between actual independence and perceived independence. My point was that I feel that you have actual independence, it is impossible for you to have a perceived independence since you do in fact manufacture cables.

Just say I was a builder and my brother was a contractor. I may have actual independence from him, I don't favor him in any way and may even not talk to him outside of work. Even so there is a perceived breach of independence since he is family. Even though I have no preference towards him whatsoever (actual) we still are family (perceived) so there is a breach in my independence towards my brother.

I'm bowing out. As usual nothing is resolved, those who believe do and those who don't don't. I for one will no longer give my opinion on interconnects in general or specific recommendations, unless directly asked for either.

ben62670

Polkie price is much lower. I don't advertise Polkie price. I ask Polkie price to be kept under people hats, and even at $100 a pair it would still be reasonable. Sorry if I am a little touchy, but I take lots of pride in my work.
Ben



Edit
Thanks for the link on the jig, but that only twists

RutgersFTW

Ben's cable pricing is much more fair than almost all of the silliness out there. He's also transparent about what goes into his cables.

zombie boy 2000

ben62670 wrote: »

Damn dude you are so one tracked. OK you can measure some stuff, but what about all the other stuff that science hasn't figured out how to measure? How many scientist have said the world is flat? What about the number of stars? Till Galileo made the telescope it was thought there were only 2200 or so. Being stuck on what can be scientifically proven is just plain ignorant. So someone having a tiny mind, and focusing only on what can be proven (so far) you are locking yourself into a teeny tiny world.
Rock on.

Well said Ben. I've tried to remove myself from the ****-flinging for the last year or so, but you can count me among the "believers" for the record. I look forward to hearing your IC's at the meet.

RutgersFTW

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Right, they can't point out these differences when switching back and forth within minutes, but they can pick out the differences when they have not even heard the other cable in a month, Very reasonable.:rolleyes:

Really? Now you're just being a dick. I use cheapy cheapy cheap cables like Monoprice Premium throughout my system and don't trust my ears where my thin wallet is concerned. I merely offered a possible explanation as to why many people spend more money on a single cable than I have on my entire system, as the very very subtle differences of exotic cables must be lived with to be appreciated (if they are in fact there at all). I also roll my eyes at people who claim any system wired with anything less than Nordost or Kimber is unlistenable, but not at people who are happy with their expensive cables and feel like they got a good deal. Roll your eyes elsewhere, good sir.

ben62670

Thanks guys.

candyliquor35m

vonnie123 wrote: »

From the preamp to the powered subwoofer, I have an Audioquest sub cable. Should a subwoofer cable also be used on the subwoofer output from a SACD multi-channel player to the preamp? Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that next time you and the hundreds of polk customers that read this thread will just call polk customer service for advice instead of asking for advice on this forum. Good job guys :rolleyes:

Face

candyliquor35m wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that next time you and the hundreds of polk customers that read this thread will just call polk customer service for advice instead of asking for advice on this forum. Good job guys :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Troll#Usage

Ricardo

How did I miss this cable discussion?

This is my opinion: I could care less what measures/articles/reviews/manufacturers say. I have heard differences in cables. Significant differences. And I DO NOT have golden ears.

To the people that have never tried, I say go ahead and try on your home and your system, and judge by yourself. I think there's a high possibility that you'll hear a difference, and you will be happy you did.

To those that have tried and say that you found no difference, I respect that. Enjoy what you have.

To those that have never tried because articles/measures/reviews say there are no differences, STFU.

Oh, and for those that want to try. I put up a demo program here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67455

Yes, I am putting up my own cables to help others try. What do I get from this? Maybe I am helping others find a diference like I did, and get more out of their systems. That's enough satiscation for me.

zombie boy 2000

It doesn't get any better than Ricardo's offer. Some of you should really consider it.