Computer Recommendations - Help

rskarvan · January 2003

This is in the off-topic category. So, don't flame me. But, I am looking for a new CPU. I've got the monitor and acc. I want something in the 2.xGig range. Something with dual Seagate SCSI hard-drives in a raid array. Something with a 128M graphics card. And, maybe a gig of memory. And, a DVD burner too.

Any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks (in advance).

polkatese · January 2003

I used to build machines in the old days and had find that Dell usually has the best configuration for the money (i.e. the quality of the components such as nvidia based card, etc.) why do you need scsi? - my suggestions would be to configure one on Dell website, so that you know what is the latest and greatest (Dell may not have the option for dual scuzzy though) and go from there (in terms of shopping for the right price) good luck..

F1nut · January 2003

Dell would be my first choice, Gateway second.

jrausch · January 2003

If you want to do RAID, build your own box. It's not that hard and you will get everything exactly your way. If not, Dell and Compaq sell server class systems but it's going to cost you much more because the type of computer youre talking about is not mass produced. You may find a Dell Graphic artists box that would be geared more toward your taste. Dell will build you what you want, but it may cost you extra. The scsi Raid is the setup that's going to add the big bucks to your system. I would consider going with IDE RAID and a pair of 10k rpm drives. This will give you the access speed without breaking the bank. IDE taxes your CPU a little more, but only a very small percentage. Scsi controller's and hard drives cost 2-3 times as much as IDE. Take a look at a 100 gig scsi drive and compare it with IDE. Unless you need it for a business, I'd go with IDE RAID. I have both setups and there is little differance between them. Stongly consider what is it you want your system for and what you want it to do.
Save as much money as you can because in six months the price will probaby drop another %20-%25.

phuz · January 2003

Build it yourself. A manufacturer will charge an arm and a leg for that kind of machine.

check out www.laboratorycomputers.com - they have some of the best prices that I've found anywhere.

Good luck.

MxStYlEpOlKmAn · January 2003

I agree with Phuz, I have a custom built computer, it can out run nething in its class, more reliable, faster - CHEAPER! lol

faster100 · January 2003

good place for parts cheap, www.tcwo.com
very cheap and shipping is next to nothing, they are local for me although, I build computers as a hobby/side thing. why do you need such power in a pc? just wondering? 128 video, raid, over 2 gig processor? I have a 1.4 amd xp and it runs very fast, I just run a regular ide maxtor drive 7200 rpm, 32 meg ddr video.. does my video transfers from my mini dv camera no problem, Build it yourself no one will have one prebuilt like that or offer it for that matter unless its a business/server class pc, Let us know what you will use this pc for>????

stevelarrison · January 2003

Well, I am a newbie to this forum, and relatively uneducated about audio equipment (but I know enough to be an SDA owner), but it just so happens that you have asked about something that is right up my alley.

First of all, let me give you a little bit of my background. I work as a computer consultant. My specialties are databases, and all things Unix. As for applications, my specialty is using inferential statistics to improve operations at manufacturing companies. I have been developing software professionally for about 18 years, and have been fortunate enough to work on some very high profile (and cool) products. I spent about 9 years in the night vision industry working for Litton, and about 2 1/2 years working for the Aircraft & Missiles division of Boeing. (My work has gone into the manufacture of just about every military aircraft and missile Boeing makes including F15, F18 C/D, F18 E/F, AV8, T45, KC-135, B2, C17, CH47, Apache AH64D, AWACS, Harpoon Missile, Airborne Laser, and National Missile Defense). I also had my hands in the vision system of SADARM.

Aside from a professional background in software, as a hobby, I build and overclock computers. I have been doing so for about the last 5 years.

That having been said, the first question I always ask anyone who is looking at a machine is what their intended use for the computer is. The recommend spec will vary widely based on your intended usage. If you are a gamer, having a fast CPU and a high end video card like the ATI Radeon 9700 is the best route to go; However, the cost of SCSI RAID won't be justifiable. If you are into database applications development, then SCSI RAID is worth looking at, so is a fast processor with lots of L2 cache, and a decent amount of RAM, but the video card isn't too important. If you are into CAD or Photoshop, then a lot of RAM, a high end video card based on something like the nVidia Quadro 4, and a fast processor are necessary, but fast SCSI RAID isn't. If you are building an internet server, then a fast internet connection, a lot of RAM, and fast disks are more important than a fast processor.

I can not recommend the right spec of computer without knowing what you want to use it for. The second most important question is related to budget.

Once I know a few specifics, I can recommend whether building yourself (or having a local shop do it for you) is a better idea than going with a package deal from a company like Dell.

rskarvan · January 2003

I'm just looking at upgrading from a P2 with a 4Mg video card and 11G of Disk Storage.

I don't want to break the bank.... but, I'd like a machine that is:
1. Quiet (Fan doesn't sound like an aircraft propeller)
2. Very fast boot-up and load times.
3. Reasonably good at games/video/etc (Radeon 9700 pro is a distinct possibility... although I've heard the 128Meg Nvidea cards have more stable drivers.
4. I want 3 or 4 open PCI slots.
5. Something that won't obsolete itself very quickly. I'm really talking about buying TIME of useful life. 5 years vs. 2 sort of thing. My P2 is from 1997. Its time to upgrade. Simple as that.
6. I'd a dvd burner as video-type editing is in my plans.
7. I'll also run Autocad on this machine. Don't need cutting edge performance... but, reasonably good would be nice.

Maybe that will help you spec me one better Steve... I don't know. The way I figure, buy as much as you can reasonably afford and it will last longer. This is a home computer. I do want ultra-sharp high resolution graphics to run very smoothly on my 19" Samsung LCD monitor.

Thanks again for your help!

SDA's are nice. Very unique soundstage. Unlike home computers, SDA's don't ever become obsolete.

- Ron

Jstas · January 2003

Well, I have to say that I'm running an ATI Radeon 8500SE 128M at home and it has been rock solid stable. I have seen very little performance differenc between the nVidia cards and the ATi cards.

Secondly, either way, if you are going to get a whole new system, you will not necessarily need an extremely fast processor. Save your money on the processor. You can pick up a 2.0 GHz P4 for cheap now so you don't need to find anything much faster. Use the money saved on the processor and load up on RAM. I am running 1 gig of RAM in my machine at home and my little 1.6 GHz P4 outperforms the 2.2 GHz machine on my desk at work.

I also highly recommend staying away from RAMBUS (aka: RDRAM). While it may be fast and fancy looking, it is extremely expensive for very little benefit. In addition, the RAMBUS bus is a system bottle neck and causes memory faults on a regular basis. Especially is your are taxing the system. My machine at work has 512 MB of RAMBUS and I get memory faults on a regular basis. Especially running graphics intensive programs or things like MATLAB which are processor intensive. Video games will flat out just crash when the memory faults pop up.

My recommendation for memory is DDR. DDR is expensive also but still less than half the cost of RDRAM. If you can't afford the DDR then go for SDRAM. It's dirt cheap anymore and you can get a gig's worth of 6.5 ns ECC RAM for less than 400 bucks. It's not as fast as the DDR but just as stable and for it's cost, it is one hell of a bang for the buck deal.

If you want to have the DVD burner and video editing is your future endeavor then, stock up on RAM and disk space. I wouldn't get less than 512 MB of RAM. I just built a system for my brother for his lab work in film school. He is running a 2.0 GHz P4 with 1.5 GB of memory, an ATi Radeon 8500 All-in-Wonder, SB Audigy Platinum and about 280 GB of hard drive space. The machine is loaded to the gills and total cost was just over $1600. But that is not the point. The point is video editing requires resources. A fast processor will do it quickly but, if the machine has to continually swap memory contents because of a lack of memory then it will run like a dog. If you are planning on doing video editing, I recommend an ATi Radeon All-in-Wonder 128. It has many different input and output options and allows you to connect to virtually any video standard. To augment that you might want to pick up a 1394/Firewire card. Many newer video cameras have a 1394 standard connection for video feeds and transfers.

Like I said before and I can't stress enough, do not over spend on the processor. Get a system that will allow oodles of memory and run it up as high as your budget will allow. You will do more with extra or even excessive memory than you will with more clockspeed.

If you build a system yourself (really not as hard as it seems) then you will most likely pruchase a new motherboard and case. If that is the case, very few come with less than 7 PCI slots and 1 AGP slot. Some boards still have legacy slots on them and have 1 or 2 share ISA/PCI slots. However, no P4 board will have legacy slots on it so do not worry about that.

If you get a system from a manufacturer like Dell or Gateway, you will have to get a higher end workstation type machine to fit your needs. Mainly because most home systems that they have are coming in mini-ATX cases. There is not enough room in these cases to fit a full-sized ATX board. Consequently, you will have 4 or less PCI slots, an on-board graphics and sound card or maybe just one of the two and most likely very limited RAM and processor options. If you do go this way, make sure you get the salesman to give you exactly what you want. Do not settle. I have had even the much hyped Dell sales people try and pressure me into buying something I didn't want or didn't need.

rskarvan · January 2003

Jstas,

Thanks. Exactly the type of information that I was seeking. I'll take to heart many of your recommendations. You DEFINITELY know exactly what you are talking about. RDRAM isn't all its cracked up to be.

Ron

Strong Bad · January 2003

I recently priced out a Dell Poweredge 600SC server. I'm looking at the following setup:

1.8ghz 512k cache P4
512mb DDR RAM w/200 mhz bus
RAID 5 array w/4 IDE 40gb hard drives
15" monitor

Thats the basics. I have to go back and bump up the video card, NIC and monitor a little bit, but thats about where I am right now. Cost...$1500.00. It'll probably climb to around 17 - 18 hundred after the upgrades.

I'm looking to use this for multiple applications. I'm going to get into website development, among other things. I can use this for school also.

John

faster100 · January 2003

Forget Intel!!! Overpriced, AMd is the way to go and DDR ram is dollars above sdram, 400 for a gig of ram, i can get 2x512 for about 220.00 pc2100/or 2700.. as for all the raid stuff.. if you really intend to use it get it, but for a normal home pc is totally unesasary... you don't have to be a "rocket scientist" LOL to build a home pc and you don't need 3000.00 bucks to do it or a pc kit from a retailer, they are crap.. Buy a atx case with a nice power supply first. get a asus or gigabyte or similiar motherboard. that takes DDR, nice video care. I use ati and at the savings over other cards it works great.. 128 video is nice but not needed unless you plan to game or video intensive stuff. Let s make it easy on him and send him in the right direction. this can be done and without all the millions of idea's of high dollar equipment. Its simple and don't need a degree to figure it out. seems my post was passed up and a link to a cheap computer parts house as well. just some useful info from a average joe smoe : )

rskarvan · January 2003

Thanks faster. I'm a little leary of the DIY boxes... but, that is probably the best way to go. I was hoping more for something with some tech support and/or warranty just in case something ain't right from the factory.

I recently returned an Alienware computer to Best Buy because the RDRAM was unstable as hell and continually locking up. It sure was nice to walk back into BB and just say... this computer is crap... give me my money back. No problems and an instant credit back to me. That is why the DIY stuff scares me. I have an engineering degree and I am certain that I can work out the tech details... just didn't want to deal with part problems.

Thanks again.

Ron

stevelarrison · January 2003

OK, first things first, so far, I don't see any justification for you to have to spend the money on a SCSI RAID array. If your reasons for wanting RAID are related to fault tolerance via something like RAID-5, I would recommend forgetting that idea and just use the DVD writer you want to get for regular backups. If that isn't suitable for you, you can go with IDE RAID and mirroring. Although SCSI is fast (especially the newer 15k drives), I don't see it as being worth the expense for what you are going to use your machine for.

Now for a few more questions.

First of all, are you comfortable working with hardware? If so, I highly recommend building your own machine. You can get something more tailored to your needs. If not, in your case, I would recommend going with a local PC shop, and having them assemble components that I will recommend to you. You can usually get this done for about $50 over the price of components. However, you can generally save money on components by going to price search engines like www.pricewatch.com or www.pricescan.com .

Secondly, are you familiar with overclocking? If so, what are your thoughts? I realize that you don't want to have your machine sounding like a vacuum cleaner, but there are safe and affordable ways to tweak things to run faster than stock.

Third, the question that is always asked with PC purchases. How long can you wait before upgrading? While it is true that there is always something newer and shinier right around the corner, there are some very legitimate reasons to delay until March if you can. First of all, the Geforce FX is about to be released. When the Geforce FX is released, you will see a significant drop in the prices of the Geforce 4 series cards as well as the Radeons. Secondly, I don't know how familiar you are with processor technology, but there are some very interesting things happening in the next few months.

The Pentium 4 is more performance sensitive to memory bandwidth than any previous processor. As you are probably aware, the Pentium 4 is currently available in 2 flavors. Ones that run a 100MHz quad-pumped 400MHz Front Side Bus (FSB) and ones that run a 133MHz/533 MHz FSB.

In the March time frame, Intel will be releasing a version that runs on a 200MHz/800Mhz FSB. If you take a common processor speed for all platforms, all else being equal, a 100/400 2.4 GHz P4 is about 10% slower than a 133/533 2.4 GHz P4 in most benchmarks. The 200/800 2.4 GHz will outperform a 133/533 2.4 GHz P4 by about 15% (estimated) without using Hyperthreading. Also, though only available on the 3.06GHz P4 right now, Hyperthreading will be available on all 200/800 P4s in the spring.

In addition to changes in FSB, there are some newer motherboard chipsets coming out at the same time that you will also be interested in. Right now, they are code named Springdale and Canterwood. These chipsets will support the 200/800 P4's. In addition to a faster FSB, these are also dual-channel DDR motherboards. Since the P4 is sensitive to memory bandwidth, dual-channel DDR does very good things for overall system performance. Currently, the only dual-channel DDR motherboard for the P4 is the recently released GraniteBay series motherboards. All reports say that Canterwood is where you want to be. (Granite Bay is a little bit more expensive than most newer motherboards, plus will be obsoleted shortly).

On the AMD side, I have seen enough delays in Barton to not be able to have any confidence in the relase of that processor. Of course, all Socket A processors will be obsoleted by the Hammer series of chips. Don't expect Hammer to be affordable for the home before Sept. '03. If you do go AMD, there is only one motherboard chipset to look at. The nForce2. It offers the best performance, and tons of integrated goodies like high end audio, firewire, integrated LAN. And if you aren't too big of a gamer and your CAD needs are light, the integrated Geforce 4 440MX video card may even be suitable for your needs.

Next question, how much Autocad stuff do you do? You need to think this one over carefully. While I am more of a database/stats guy than a CAD person, from talking to friends who are into CAD, ATI cards can be somewhat problematic in a CAD environment. The problem isn't really driver related. ATI used to be plagued with driver problems, but over the past year or so, they have improved their Windows support dramatically. (Linux support still sucks) The problem is more related to precision. If you really do a lot of CAD work, you probably should consider something like a Geforce Quadro, or other dedicated CAD card. If you just occassionally bring stuff home from work, it isn't as big of a concern.

Next question: Any interest in integrating the system into your home theater? If ATI is suitable for your needs, and you do want to integrate the machine into your home theater, I would recommend looking at the All-in-wonder series of ATI video cards. Aside from having very good image quality, they have built in TV tuners and software that allows Tivo-like functionality. Also, if you are interested, you can rip high bit-rate MP3s and route them to your AV receiver. The level of interest in doing stuff like this will impact both the amount of recommend disk space as well as the sound card being used. (Assuming you go with Intel. If you get an AMD, get the nForce2 based motherboards, and you will be very happy with your sound)

Once I have answers to these questions, I can give you a parts list and actual prices. (Or if you decide to wait for 200/800 P4's and Canterwood, then I can give expected prices)

Jstas · January 2003

Yeah, that's another thing. A 15 inch monitor will do just fine. Just bump up the resolution.

An example, I have a 15 inch ViewSonic Optiquest Q55 at home. It's actually listed as a server monitor on most sites. However, it has all the best of Viewsonic's imaging capability but not as many fancy whiz-bang options. It's dot-pitch is extremely low (.25mm) and it is non-interlaced. The picture quality is astounding and the monitor actually performs better than the big, expensive Sony Trinitron 17 and 20 inchers we have here at work. The Sonys at work run us about 350-400 a pop. My Viewsonic at home? $!25. I have a top-notch monitor for bargain basement prices. If you do go with a home-brewed system, shop around. There are awesome deals everywhere on monitors. In my opinion, if you are going for a new monitor, you can't beat a Viewsonic. They post awesome numbers but have measly prices compared to thier competition. If you go used, try and find a large screen (19" and larger, if you have room for it) NEC or Hitachi. You can get refurbed ones and they can get pricey but $500 for a refurbed 21 inch Hitachi is a whole lot better than $1500 for a new one.

Also, I forgot to question the need for SCSI. You are getting into a price range that will double teh cost of your system. SCSI disk space is expensive. Especially if you are going to run the system off of a SCSI disk. If you want SCSI for the video editing speed, what I would do is forgoe teh SCSI stuff for now. Get a couple of IDE drives. (I'll explain my reason in a second) Load teh OS on one and use it as your primary disk. I see alot of people get one big fat IDE drive. While that's all neat and cool and easy, if you are going to keep important stuff, it's not smart. Which would you rathe back up? 40 gigs or 80 gigs? What Ido at home is I have 2 40 gig disks in my machine. One disk is the OS and applications. The other disk is solely for video games and storage of pictures, movies and MP3's. That way, the OS disk stays pretty stable and I'm not backing up frivolous stuff.

The SCSI stuff, you can still get them but get a PCI slot SCSI controller are run the SCSI disks off of that. It will be alot easier to maintain and since it would be just storage for movie editing and such, it would not have to be volume managed. You wouldn't even have to RAID it unless it was vital to something.

You have alot of options. Consider them all and get as much info as you can before making decisions. Keep asking people if you don't get the answers you are looking for the first time.

Jstas · January 2003

Another thing, AMD stuff can be had from Dell and Gateway.

As far as prices go, they fluctuate throughout the year. For both AMD and Intel stuff. I'm going on prices from the September/October time frame which was the last time I was shopping. It may be cheaper now. In fact, it probably is because the computer market stunk for Christmas this past year. Alot of places have overstock that they want to get rid of.

But one thing that really bugs me is people who think they have the better answer to everything. I know AMD puts out decent stuff. If they didn't, they would not be in business. Just because that is what you use or because you can find a better price does not make it better. Both AMD and Intel have thier merits. Intel is expensive when they are first released. Wait 6 months for the next chipset or processor to be released and the Intel stuff will be cheaper than the AMD.

Another plus for Intel is prices fall extremely quickly where as AMD is cheaper off the bat but will stay steady for a longer period of time. Intel does a much larger volume than AMD because of all the companies like Dell, Gateway and Compaq using millions of Intel processors.

This isn't as true now as it was 2 years ago when AMD first hit the market but AMD stuff doesn't always have the level of driver support that Intel enjoys. It is much better now but still not equal and some expansion cards still do not directly support AMD buses and interfaces. I'm saying this out of experience. It was a major factor in my choosing an Intel based system for my last hardware purchase due to my specific requirements for certain kinds of hardware.

Price is defintly one major consideration but don't start screaming that one is better than the other for reasons based solely on personal opinion. There is alot more to selecting computer parts than price if you want to get down to the nitty gritty. For your average home user though, AMD is a viable option easily. However, when you start delving into more specific requirements and specialized expansion cards, you have to consider everthing from the type BIOS, the system chipset all the way up to the OS you are choosing to use. I myself prefer to consider all of the above from the outset. It saves time and money later on. For that, my experience has been Intel over AMD.

faster100 · January 2003

Its not from just a price point, Its common knowledge AMD is cheaper and in benchmarks surpass Intel in several levels period. We could get into a pissing contest what and who is better but Both companies offer everything you need for all applications, Intel isn't the holy grail of companies, They are big headed and overpriced!! Simple.. LOL and why again do we need a 3 gig processor for home use? what are we useing this computer for building the space station or surfing the web?? I'm just kidding but really we are getting way to far into this for a simple computer question and i see people typeing up knowledge to belly around the last post that doesn't even pertain to building a simple computer, sheesh Ok thats all, don't flame me now

stevelarrison · January 2003

Being a new member of this forum, the very last thing I am interested in is getting into a flame war with anyone. Please do not misunderstand this post, but when someone is looking for advice, it is better to sit back quietly than to talk about things that you don't really understand. I have seen numerous mistakes in your recommendations, and have kept quiet up until now.

First of all, Dell does not sell AMD based systems. They never have either. There are rumors that they will being selling Opteron based (Sledge Hammer) systems when released by AMD, but so far, these are still rumors. At one time, Gateway sold AMD systems, but they stopped a couple of years ago. (By the way, AMD has been in business for over 30 years, not 2)

Secondly, nVidia, Via, and SiS chipset motherboards for AMD products use the same industry-standard PCI and AGP buses that Intel, Via, and SiS use for Intel products. I challenge you to name one piece of hardware that will run on an "Intel" chipset ( Made by Intel, or compatible with Intel processors) that won't run on an AMD system.

If I were recommending a system for Ron a year ago, I would have probably steered him towards an AMD based system. The story is not the same today. Intel has used a larger R&D budget to put the competition behind it. Though announced months ago, the XP2800 still isn't showing up on Pricewatch. The XP2700 is hard to get, and at $319 isn't very much cheaper than the 2.8GHz P4 ($361). On the lower end of the scale, the XP220 at $132 isn't significantly cheaper than the 2.26GHz P4 at $168. The days of AMD representing the best value are over. Considering that Ron wants a system that will last as long as possible, going with a higher-performance Intel system seems to fit the bill better.

While I agree that SCSI probably isn't a good idea for Ron's purposes, going SCSI will NOT double the price of his system. I was pricing some 15k RPM 36GB disk drives just yesterday for $139. For the right situation, the performance is worth the price. (Even someone like me who can benefit from fast drives would be stupid to use the space for games and MP3s. You selectively consider what you want on the fast drives, and use cheaper IDE drives for the rest. In my case, it makes sense to have the OS and the datafiles and indexes for my databases on a fast drive. Everything else can live on 7200RPM IDE drives.

Contrary to your advice, the only reasons I can think of to get multiple IDE drives is to use IDE RAID, or if you need extra capacity. You can partition a large drive into several logical drives to make backup easy, or you can configure your backup software to only back up the directories you want to when you want to. Even with a DVD writer, the size of todays harddrives require diskswapping to get everything all at once.

Next up is the number of slots. While most motherboards have 5 or 6 PCI slots, I am not aware of a single non-server motherboard with 7 PCI slots. Can you show me links to all these motherboards with 7 PCI slots? (I have a couple machines at home with Serverworks chipsets that do have 7 PCI slots, but these are the exception, not the rule)

Next is the recommendation for processor speed. The cheapest 2GHz P4 on www.pricewatch.com lists for $170. The cheapest 2.4Ghz P4 on www.pricewatch.com is $178. Right now, the 2.4GHz is at the sweet spot of price and performance; however, as I mentioned earlier, the combination of Hyperthreading and the upcoming 200/800 MHz FSB coming in the spring lead me to strongly recommend that Ron wait before upgrading. He already stated that he wants his machine to last for several years. Even if he can't wait, I don't think the $8 is worth it for a processor that is about 28% slower. (A 2.4 GHz 100/400 processor is 20% faster than a 2.0GHz (also 100/400) processor. But when you consider dependance on memory bandwidth, the 133/533 2.4GHz processor picks up an extra 7 or 8% in performance over the 100/400 2.4GHz P4)

Next: RDRAM is NOT twice as expensive as DDR RAM. Looking at pricewatch.com, 512MB of PC1066 RDRAM can be had for $182. 512MB of PC3500 DDR can be had for $165. On the lower end of the scale, 512MB of PC800 RDRAM can be had for $135, 512MB of PC2100 DDR can be had for $92. Currently, RDRAM offers the best performance for P4 systems. I still recommend going another route though. With the 200/800 FSB P4's coming up, the lifespan of the i850e chipset is limited. A P4 on a 200/800 FSB will offer the most future-proof solution for Ron that is available.

Next: Recommending SDRAM is just plain stupid. The P4 is very sensitive to memory bandwidth. The i845 chipset was a dog. The Pentium 4 shines in video editing applications that Ron is interested in, but only when it has adequate memory bandwidth. Getting SDRAM on a Pentium 4 is a major mistake. You would be better off getting less DDR RAM than getting the wrong type of RAM. If you start with, say 128MB of DDR because you are broke, you can always upgrade the RAM later. If you get SDRAM because you can't afford the 512MB+ of DDR that you are recommending, you have to replace your motherboard and RAM to get decent performance. I can't emphasize it enough SDRAM and P4's are not meant for each other. SDRAM simply can't give the needed bandwidth.

Next: Recommending a separate Firewire card is foolish. If Ron goes the AMD route, the chipset to look at is the nForce2. It comes with integrated firewire. If he goes the P4 route (recommended), then he will need a soundcard. Considering that this is a Polk forum, there is more than a fair chance that he is interested in a nice sound card. That being the case, I would highly recommend an Audigy 2. Not only is it a true audiophiles soundcard, but it has integrated firewire as well. No sense in wasting a PCI slot and money on an unneeded firewire card. The only way I would recommend a separate firewire card is if Ron is interested in one of those Aopen motherboards with the vacuum tube soundsystem.

Next: Ron already mentioned a need to run CAD. Anyone care to guess how quickly you will blind him if he follows your advice and gets a 15" monitor? CAD and 15" monitors don't mix. I run my desktop at 1600x1200 on 21" Viewsonic P815.

Again, I don't want to get into a flamewar. However, I simply can't sit back and watch someone looking for advice being fed a lot of wrong information.

faster100 · January 2003

wow i am glad that wasnt meant for me, LOL I couldn't even muster the strengh to read through that full review, wow
ok then geez

stevelarrison · January 2003

Isn't the need for a 3GHz processor at home dependant upon who lives there?

faster100 · January 2003

Steve easy there buddy, we are all a cool bunch of guys on here and getting all excited doesnt help the guy who asked the question by posting a 2 page rant. No offense at all just somethings are ok to pass on and not rant. keeps things calm

Jstas · January 2003

Originally posted by faster100
Its not from just a price point, Its common knowledge AMD is cheaper and in benchmarks surpass Intel in several levels period. We could get into a pissing contest what and who is better but Both companies offer everything you need for all applications, Intel isn't the holy grail of companies, They are big headed and overpriced!! Simple.. LOL and why again do we need a 3 gig processor for home use? what are we useing this computer for building the space station or surfing the web?? I'm just kidding but really we are getting way to far into this for a simple computer question and i see people typeing up knowledge to belly around the last post that doesn't even pertain to building a simple computer, sheesh Ok thats all, don't flame me now

I agree. That is why I am saying that he doesn't need any more than a 2.0-2.2 GHz processor.

stevelarrison · January 2003

Originally posted by faster100
Steve easy there buddy, we are all a cool bunch of guys on here and getting all excited doesnt help the guy who asked the question by posting a 2 page rant. No offense at all just somethings are ok to pass on and not rant. keeps things calm

One of the problems with this method of communication is that meaning can get lost due to the lack of verbal intonation and body language. Although very lengthy, it was not intended as a rant, nor to start a flame war. I simply don't want Ron to act on bad advice, so I spoke up.

Jstas · January 2003

Steve, while about half of what you say has merit, everything directed towards me, you have missed my point completely on. I am at work and only checking the site periodically. I don't have time to discuss your diatribe any further. than a few sentences.

While you do have good ideas and good backing, youare recommending something too far advanced for a user on the level of rskarvan and probably well beyond his budget limit.

You are committing probably the biggest offense you can to user. You have not listened to a word he has said. Well, you have but you have not really listened. You have spew technical jagon out the wazoo and attempted to dazzle everyone with big words and technical specs galore. Meanwhil, you have totally ignored the user's skill level and completely forget that he has a budget.

My recommendations, while they may not make business sense, are realistic and meant to make things as simple as possible so that he has a good experience and isn't blown away for his first time venture.

Oh and I never said he should use SCSI drives for storage of MP3's and video games. Try reading my post again. I said that if he wants the speed of SCSI for MOVIE EDITING, he should use a seperate PCI Slot controller for a later add-on.

Also I have one question to ask concerning your idea of mirrored drives and system stability/security. Even if you have a new 260 GB monster drive partitioned and mirrored into 40 different drives, what happens when that single drive with 40 partitions has a physical failure?

Having 2 seperate drives one for system and teh other for hot back-ups, storage and a page file for systemrecovery is much preferable to total system failure. At least in my book it is..

faster100 · January 2003

True, good points... just sometimes when "people" go on to long they lose focus and being we don't know Ron, or the level of knowledge he has for computers it might become overwelming i'f his knowledge is limited.. That s all

stevelarrison · January 2003

Originally posted by Jstas
Steve, while about half of what you say has merit, everything directed towards me, you have missed my point completely on. I am at work and only checking the site periodically. I don't have time to discuss your diatribe any further. than a few sentences.]

Feel free to adress any points you think I am incorrect about later when you have more time. Again, I don't want a flame war, I just don't want to see Ron take bad advice.

While you do have good ideas and good backing, youare recommending something too far advanced for a user on the level of rskarvan and probably well beyond his budget limit.

You are committing probably the biggest offense you can to user. You have not listened to a word he has said.

If you check Ron's profile, you will find that he is an Mechanical Engineer working for Delphi. He has expressed an interest in working with CAD at home, and also mentioned he wants his system to last several years. Recommending a 2.0GHz P4 over a 2.4GHz P4 for an $8 savings at a 28% reduction in processor performance ignores the fact that he has need for decent horsepower and a desire not to upgrade soon. Personally, I think getting a 133/533 2.4GHz would be a mistake with the 200/400 processors with hyperthreading right around the corner.

To me, it seems like you are ignoring the users needs here.

Oh and I never said he should use SCSI drives for storage of MP3's and video games. Try reading my post again. I said that if he wants the speed of SCSI for MOVIE EDITING, he should use a seperate PCI Slot controller for a later add-on.

I apologize for any misunderstanding here. I did not mean to imply that you recommended using SCSI drives for MP3s and games. Really, the speed of a 15K SCSI is wasted for movie editing as well. Though there is a fair amount of IO activity, benchmarks show that CPU and video speed are far more important.

Also I have one question to ask concerning your idea of mirrored drives and system stability/security. Even if you have a new 260 GB monster drive partitioned and mirrored into 40 different drives, what happens when that single drive with 40 partitions has a physical failure?

Another misunderstanding here. I am not necessarily recommending that he go with mirroring. (Perhaps you are confused, I recommended partitioning. Mirroring is a good idea for something where data loss is intolerable, but it involves using twice as much disk space as an un-mirrored system.) But to answer your question, the same thing will happen with a driver failure in a single drive system that happens in a failure of a drive in a two drive system. He will have to get another hard drive and restore from backups. A one drive system with a bad drive is just as unusable as a two drive system with one drive bad. If your data/applications drive goes out in a two drive system, you can't work until you replace a drive and restore the data and applications. If the OS drive goes out in a two drive system, you can't work until you replace a drive and restore the OS. The only realy difference is that you have a higher probability of being crippled by a drive failure in a multiple drive system than you do in a single drive system. If downtime is unacceptable, the going with IDE RAID in a mirrored environment is the best choice. However, it comes at a cost that exceeds the benefit in most cases.

stevelarrison · January 2003

Originally posted by faster100
True, good points... just sometimes when "people" go on to long they lose focus and being we don't know Ron, or the level of knowledge he has for computers it might become overwelming i'f his knowledge is limited.. That s all

There are a few key points I am basing my recommendations on. If you look at Ron's profile, you will see he is a Mechanical Engineer at Delphi. When I asked him about his intended uses, he did mention CAD. Based on the field he is in, I am assuming he is a somewhat sophisticated user. He mentioned wanting to spend a couple extra $ to get a system that would last a while, so I am basing my recommendations on something that is as future proof as possible.

Jstas · January 2003

Steve, you are getting far too deep into this.

Number one, he may be a mechanical engineer but, he has said and it is evident by his posts that he does not know more than your average novice when it comes to computers. You advice is way too far past that. Out of the 50 people that have read this thread I think maybe 25% of them have any idea what you are talking about.

You say you don't want a flame war yet all you have done is bash what everyone else says.

I admit that my advice may not be as complete as yours. However, it is not my intent to impress him. Remember, this is advice. He does not have to take it. All I am saying is that you are going way too far for what he needs.

Oh yeah, check the specs on a 2.0 GHz chip set from Intel. It's the same as a 2.4 GHz. Performing a simple jumper switch on the MB will give him 2.4 GHz performance at a 2.0 GHz price. He can also do a soft-clock with a 2.2 GHz over-clock and get 2.5 out it. I know, I am running it at home. But then again, with enough RAM he will not know the difference.

Also, I run AutoCAD and Visio on my machine at home with a 15 inch monitor. I have no problems using it. Sure it would be nice to have a larger monitor but my space does not allow a physically larger monitor nor does my budget. Make due with what you have. If he can't afford a 17 or 19 or 21 inch monitor he shouldn't be forced to purchase one.

Also, again, you have missed my point about multiple drives. If you have a page file, you do not need a mirrored drive. You can use your page file as a space to store boot info. If you make a page file and a recovery disk from that page file, you can recover the entire system to the 2nd hard drive and run in that configuration. At least until you fix your issue. You would not be without a computer.

Also, the real reason I keep video games and BS files seperate is because they are buggy. They screw things up. I don't store them on my system disk because they make things unstable. I store them on my secondary disk. Applications are alot less likely to screw up the OS files or disk space. Storing them on the system disk with the OS increases thier performance and stability.

As for your previous points, I will do my best to address them in my limited time.

Number one. RAIDing IDE drives will, 9 times out of 10, not work with the on-board controllers. Very few onboard controllers on non-server class machines will have a RAIDable IDE controller. You need to purchase a secondary IDE controller for a PCI slot. That is one chipset where several controllers do not work with AMD based systems. I know, I have tried. I even called companies for tech support and they recommend not using thier cards of certain models in AMD systems. You need to get models with cards that have on-board memory because teh cards are incapable of interfacing with AMD's way of doing the DDR and/or RAMBUS controllers.

As far as backup options, DVD writers are nice but expensive. I'd rather run a 4mm tape drive, also fairly expensive but half the price of a DVD-RAM drive. Also, a 4mm tape can hold 120 GB's compressed. HP has a very nice interface for it too. Makes it easy as pie.

As far as your RAM recommendation goes, again, you are blowing his budget. While teh P4 can utilize faster RAM, SDRAM is sufficient quantities will work just fine for him. Besides, many P4 boards have a dual memory capability which allows for either SDRAM or DDR RAM. Or did you forget about that? Your upgradability for DDR RAM is still there but he does not have to have the high initial investment to get up and running. SDRAM is still cheap and works well enough for his current needs. He will have no problem operating with it.

You are also mistaken on the RDRAM. While the PC1066 RAM may be cheap, it may not be compatible with newer buses and bus speeds. Also, If he starts out with PC1066 and wants to get new PC2700 (as an example), he will need to buy enough memory to replace what he already has and then get the upgrade. Why? Because the RAMBUS controller will choke on the two different speeds. He is stuck at the PC1066 speed and maybe one level up or down until he upgrades all of it. Then he better make sure he has a bus controller that is compatible with the new RDRAM he wants to get. Face RAMBUS should have been put to bed a long time ago. It's a good idea that was badly implemented and now they are trying to bandage it up with sheer brute force and it's still not working.

Lastly, I recommend a seperate firewire card merely for additional ports. Much of the video equipment out there is not capable of daisy-chaining a Firewire/1394 line. They don't have pass throughs. If he wants to use a new BetaCAM with a firewire out to record to something like a mini-disc, he will need more than one port because the BetaCAM most likely doesn't have the 1394 out. The Minidisc might. The reason I know that? Again, experience. My brother is a film major. I already built a system for video editing for him and he is working just fine with USB and 1394 expansion cards on a 2.0GHz P4 running 1.5 GB of SDRAM.

Since you are touting your credidations, they pale in comparison. I have 15 years of hardware experience (that's right, started messing around with computers at age 10.) I have 6 years experienc and counting working in a major U.S. Corporation on equipment so cutting edge it will make your head spin. I am responsible (in a small group of course) for maintaining hardware, software and networking capabilities of about 3,000 machines on a network that supports over 5,000. My experience covers every major operating system including some that are obsolete and 9 different hardware platforms, 4 of which are obsolete. My geek credentials go on and on but I hate tooting my own horn.

I'm done with your debates. You are obviously upset over all of thise and it seems that you are regurgitating specs from tomshardware.com or something. I speaking out of experience here and while specs and what things are supposed to do is nice to know, knowing what they really do is a different story.

So I ask one more question. Which would you rather have? A pile or regurgitated specs that I could go and look up myself and still have no idea what they mean or honest advice based in real world experience tailored to my particular needs which address my problems with a viable, simple and well rounded solution?

Techno jargon is nice but it doesn't give the user a "warm-fuzzy" and it just shows that even though you listened, you really didn't listen.

rskarvan · January 2003

I am overwhelmed and seriously impressed with the quality of advice I am getting for a new computer purchase. As I stated earlier, I have a new 19" Samsung LCD digital monitor. The quality of the monitor is excellent (high degree of contrast) and I am impressed with it (though, I admit there may be better out there). You pegged me on the ACAD use - taking work home on occastion. The reason I was investigating raid drives was I wanted double access load times - as loading programs is one of the activities that makes a computer "seem slow". Yes, I can wait till spring if waiting till spring makes a LOT of sense. But, likewise, there is ALWAYS something better just around the corner. I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by buying just a little premature of major technical advances though either.

Budget-wise, I am a bit flexible. I want a good computer at a reasonable price. I don't want the very latest and greatest at an extravagant price. And, I don't want two year old technology at budget prices either.

Intended uses.
1. Video Editing
2. Autocad
3. Some Gaming
In short, intended usage is on the "advanced side" for a home user. But, I do not intend to host websites with it - don't want a noisy server box.

I liked the websites that offered components. Unfortunately, they really didn't offer a kit that would meet my intended uses. Seems to me that SOMEBODY could make a killing offering nice computer kits at reasonable prices. Either that, or I am just missing a website that already offers this service.

I'm disappointed with Dell's long lead time and I've heard bad things about the corporate health of Gateway and their HORRIBLE customer tech support. Sigh.

You would think that today, it would be easier to find a high end home machine that is nicely configured. Unfortunately, Best Buy, Circuit City, and Compusa don't really have very high end stuff at all.

Lots of el-cheapo computers out there with limited expandability. Very few modestly configured mid-range machines that a knowledgeable home user can tweak for their personal use.

Again, thanks all !

Ron

stevelarrison · January 2003

OK, because I am estimating prices for some components that aren't available yet, there may be some variance in actual prices. (It will be interesting to look back in a couple months and see how close I am) Also, because the chipset I am recommending for the motherboard hasn't been released yet, I won't be able to give you model numbers. Feel free to ask me again at the end of March.

Here are my recommendations :

Processor : Retail Pentium 4 2.4GHz with 200/800 FSB $163
Memory : 512MB of DDR400 RAM - preferred vendor - Corsair, also acceptable Mushkin or Crucial price $180
Motherboard: Canterwood chipset motherboard from either Intel or Asus. price : $180
Soundblaster Audigy 2 sound card. $110
Harddrive : Western Digital Special Edition with 8MB buffer (the fastest IDE drive available) Size dependant on your needs. The 80GB drive will cost around $120, the 180GB drive will cost about $315
CD-ROM about $25

Total base system price before options: $778 to $973

Customization:

Case - a plain-jane ATX case with 400w Power Supply can be had for as low as $40, or you can spend as much as $600. Based on astetics and desire for things like vapor-phase cooling, this is your call.

Video Card - you never answered the question about desire for making this a Home Theater PC in addition to a primary machine. From your response, I am assuming you are not a hard core gamer. If that assumption is correct, I would recommend getting either a Radeon R8500 or an Radeon R8500 All-in-wonder. (The All-in-wonder will give you Tivo functionality) The R8500 will give you adequate performance for any 3D game available today. However, it is projected to be sorely inadequate when Doom 3 comes out. If you can live with that, an R8500 can be had for $92, the 64MB version of the All-in-wonder runs $163, and the 128MB version of the All-in-wonder runs $257. ( I recommend the 64MB version. The extra 64MB of RAM is only needed when running with Full Screen Anti Aliasing at high (above 1024x768) resolutions. The GPU in this videocard isn't powerful enough to handle FSAA at high resolutions even with the extra memory.

If you are a hardcore gamer, change the price to $350 for a Geforce FX, or for the upcoming Radeon 9900. Both will be in stores in March when you put the system together.

If you are a hardcore gamer and want the Tivo functionality, up the price of the video card to about $500 and look for the All-in-wonder version of the Radeon 9900.

Operating System: If you have Windows 2000 Professional, transfer your license from your P2. If not, the only Microsoft Operating systems to consider are Windows 2000 and Windows XP. Personally, I prefer Windows 2000. An OEM version of Windows 2000 will run you around $100 for an upgrade. The home edition of XP is about the same price.

Recommended price $40 for case, and either the $92 Radeon R8500 or the $163 All-in-wonder version of the Radeon R8500. The OS will either be free, or cost you about $100. Total of customizations: Price between $132 and $303.

Total with customizations : $910 to $1276.

Personal choice:

Keyboard and mouse. Personally, I love the Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer. The thing is huge, but it fits my hands perfectly. Price : $20
Keyboard: I hate those Microsoft natural keyboards, some people love them though. If you are a touch typist, and prefer a quality keyboard, you can go old-school and get a genuine IBM PC-101 keyboard. These things feel like Selectrics, and can be had for $49 from http://store.yahoo.com/pckeyboards/ibm101.html

Additonal toys:

DVD Writer - Prices are dropping quickly. You can get a name brand DVD Writer for about $300, but they will be cheaper in the spring.

Computer Recommendations - Help

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