I want to HEAR the bass, not FEEL it!

obieone
obieone Posts: 5,077
edited September 2008 in Subwoofer Hookup & Bass Management
NOTE: Yes, I read Early's thread, but I wasn't 100% sure if we're talking about the same thing, so...
I've got 2 Monitor 60's, 4 Monitor 30's and 1 PSW303.
I know I can't expect too much from 2 way speakers, but I only feel the bass without hearing it. I'm looking for more low end tones. I'm assuming I should be looking for something along the lines of Monitor 7's? Or, the modern equivalent.
My living room is 13X17, so SDA's are T.F.B. And LSi's don't have drivers all facing the same way. And I really want the full range of music, so I don't THINK the RTi/a's will cut it with 7" drivers.
So that's my b*tch for now. Any feedback is welcomed.
Thanks
I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
Post edited by obieone on
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2008
    You need a better subwoofer. Problem solved.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Frank840
    Frank840 Posts: 262
    edited June 2008
    ya new subwoofer. if you dont want to break the bank. there is a guy sellling PSW1000 for 225 or best offer offer him 100dollars like i did and then go buy a dayton amp for 250 and you will be a happy camper.or if you look close enough you can find a psw505 for around 300bucks.

    PSW1000
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Polk-PSW1000-Pro-Dual-Subwoofer-System_W0QQitemZ150262859140QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


    and the amp

    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-806
    - This your Bush?
    Pioneer Elite Sc-25
    Polk Lsic,15's,9's, PSW1000
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  • Eric W
    Eric W Posts: 556
    edited June 2008
    Frank840 wrote: »
    ya new subwoofer. if you dont want to break the bank. there is a guy sellling PSW1000 for 225 or best offer offer him 100dollars like i did and then go buy a dayton amp for 250 and you will be a happy camper.or if you look close enough you can find a psw505 for around 300bucks.

    PSW1000
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Polk-PSW1000-Pro-Dual-Subwoofer-System_W0QQitemZ150262859140QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


    and the amp

    http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-806
    For the record, that is not a PSW1000. That is a LSiW cabinet and the drivers are different then the 1000's. If you pop in a PartsExpress/Dayton (or any other plate amp for that matter) it will not have the proper equalization or compression/limiting that is unique to the PSW1000.

    It will "work" but will not be nor perform like a true PSW1000.
    -Eric
    -Polk Audio
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited June 2008
    obieone wrote: »
    I know I can't expect too much from 2 way speakers, but I only feel the bass without hearing it.
    Thanks

    It has nothing to do with 2 way speakers.

    Some of the smaller SDA's would work in your room, such as the 2B's.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited June 2008
    O.K., well what sub would go w/ the 60's? The psw125 is what's matched w/them, but...
    While we're on the subject, the 303 is called a 'long throw' sub?? Is it designed for larger rooms with a seating distance over a certain range?
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited June 2008
    I have a psw125 for sale. $185
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  • fatchowmein
    fatchowmein Posts: 2,637
    edited June 2008
    Would a PSW303 work for him? Onecall has them for $139.97 but they want $47.98 for 3 Day Fedex shipping.
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2008
    Ob -- what's you budget? You need to purchase the biggest, baddest sub you can barely afford. At a minimum, you'll need $400, IMO. For $200 more, your options increase dramatically.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Gaara
    Gaara Posts: 2,415
    edited June 2008
    Anyone reading the OP anymore?
    obieone wrote: »
    I've got 2 Monitor 60's, 4 Monitor 30's and 1 PSW303.
    I know I can't expect too much from 2 way speakers, but I only feel the bass without hearing it.
    The Basement HT
    PC Rig
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited June 2008
    I was @ Tweeter today and TRIED to listen to a couple of subs, but the guy that was helping me either couldn't get his **** together, or the place has electrical issues.
    I got to listen to the Pro400(not micropro). Unfortunately this guy had them matched with the rm6750's? Needless to say there was a bit of a gap, but the 400 sounded good.
    I'll have to go back when the contol system or this clown isn't F'ed up.
    I also checked out the Focals 806vb's vs. the LSi9's. It was close, but the 9's squeaked by on bass.
    If this post seems goofy, you had to be there at Tweeter, because it was a GOOFY visit.
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • speakergeek
    speakergeek Posts: 555
    edited June 2008
    I want to hear bass AND feel it. Actually good bass will be heard and felt.
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  • fatchowmein
    fatchowmein Posts: 2,637
    edited June 2008
    Gaara wrote: »
    Anyone reading the OP anymore?

    My bad. I was thinking he had a PSW10.
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  • jjeckelxz5
    jjeckelxz5 Posts: 48
    edited June 2008
    check out velodyne, i have a minivee that sounds great
    reciever-Yamaha rxv1700
    front-RM50t
    center-RM30
    surrounds-M40
    rear surrounds-RM30
    velodyne minivee
    playstation 3
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  • SlowcarIX
    SlowcarIX Posts: 887
    edited June 2008
    speakergeek wrote: »
    I want to hear bass AND feel it. Actually good bass will be heard and felt.

    +1 :D
    my 7.(1x4) HT setup
    TV - Mitsubishi WD-65734
    AVP / Amp - Onkyo PR-SC885P / D-Sonic 2500-7
    Front - Emerald Physics CS2
    Center - JTR Triple 12LF
    Surround L/R / Back - Polk RTi4 / Polk FXi A4
    Sub - 4 X Hsu ULS15 playing nearfield
    DVD / CDP - Sony PS3/40GB / Sony SCD-XA9000ES
    Belkin PURE AV PF60 / UPS
    Buttkicker

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60612
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited June 2008
    In order to have bass accurately reproduced IMO, you need to be able to feel it when it is not audible and experience it instead of hearing it. To do so correctly is an incredibly hard feat to pull off and is not cheap....again, IMO.

    Obieone, what you are describing is a mid-bass punch. That is not bass. Totally different spectrum of frequencies.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited June 2008
    I don't mind feeling it AND hearing it, but right now the only way I can hear it is to mash the bass contol to +12! I'm assuming that a dedicated preamp vs. an avr would have better bass mangement.. I also have a hard time understanding why a 3 way speaker wouldn't sound better than 2 way in 2.1?
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited June 2008
    obieone wrote: »
    I also have a hard time understanding why a 3 way speaker wouldn't sound better than 2 way in 2.1?
    I'll let your audio journey discover this one for you. Utilize the search function and/or Google for a plethora of information on this.
    obieone wrote: »
    I don't mind feeling it AND hearing it, but right now the only way I can hear it is to mash the bass contol to +12! I'm assuming that a dedicated preamp vs. an avr would have better bass mangement..
    You can find out what frequency or range of frequencies the bass knob increases on some gear, I am [unfortunately] unfamiliar with your AVR. It is best IMO to not use any form of boost to any frequency or group of frequencies. 9 times out of ten, attenuation will yield a better end result from what I have experienced.

    That said, yes. Separates will definitely get the ball rolling again on your audio journey and show the potential of audio reproduction that you apparently have not embraced. Be careful, one you leave mainstream.......you may never return. That's a good thing! :D
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited June 2008
    obieone wrote: »
    I don't mind feeling it AND hearing it, but right now the only way I can hear it is to mash the bass contol to +12! I'm assuming that a dedicated preamp vs. an avr would have better bass mangement.. I also have a hard time understanding why a 3 way speaker wouldn't sound better than 2 way in 2.1?

    If you have to "mash the bass control to +12," you probably have a setup problem somewhere. Have you tried different placement options? Does your room have a large opening on one side? How far is the sub from your seating position? Did you calibrate it? How loud do you play music?

    Another thought is the sub may be doing its job, but you may be accustomed to the sound of boomy bass because you don't "hear" the bass.

    A dedicated preamp will not necessarily have better bass control. The processor isn't the problem.

    By the way, a 3-way speaker will not necessarily sound better than a 2-way speaker. The difference is only in the design. It's not relevant to your bass problem.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited June 2008
    Early B. wrote: »
    A dedicated preamp will not necessarily have better bass control.
    ......not necessarily.......but a dedicated amp will..... :D
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Erik Tracy
    Erik Tracy Posts: 4,673
    edited June 2008
    The PSW303 can provide a decent musical bass experience that can be felt and heard w/o mashing the knobs to +12.

    I've got my PSW303 set up the Polk way and the volume is set about 60% (or about 1 o'clock), and the low pass filter is set about 70 Hz.

    I can get decent bass sound and feel it too - but I tend to be somewhat conservative in that I want my sound to have a 'foundation', but that it should not be the dominant portion of the overall sonics.

    Maybe I got lucky with my room acoustics....who knows....

    If your room layout has troublesome acoustics one way is to get a bigger better sub.

    Kinda like the analogy I heard about the F-4 Phantom fighter jet which had horrible aerodynamics, but some kick @ss engines. One pilot said that if you strap big enough engines on a bus - it'll fly! :-)

    But also, like most things, you (typically) get what you paid for. I'm sure there are some very exceptional subs for the right coin.

    I'm still 'low-end' for now - and content - for now. ;)

    Cheers,
    Erik

    H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music.
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  • dcmeigs
    dcmeigs Posts: 708
    edited June 2008
    Have you told us how you are powering your speakers? You may need more power. You will be amazed what a 150 or 200 watt per channel power amp will do for bass, sound stage and imaging.
    The world is full of answers, some are right and some are wrong. - Neil Young
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  • RutgersFTW
    RutgersFTW Posts: 458
    edited June 2008
    I've got a pretty similar setup to Erik Tracy and it sounds great. The 303 is a highly capable subwoofer and before everyone sends OP on a costly journey, why not some simple advice on placement? If "feeling" too much means boomy bass, move it out of the corner and off the wall. Do a bass crawl (throw in a bass-heavy source and pop the sub on the couch and crawl around the room until the bass sounds best, then place the sub there).

    And the "full range of music" isn't nearly as demanding as most people seem to think. Any speaker that does well into the low 30s is almost certainly providing you with the "full range of music." Standard pianos stop at around 32hz, and except tubas, pipe organs, and other very large instruments the first octave (16hz to 32hz) is a very lonely place. Furthermore, almost everything down in the first octave is felt and not heard.

    If you've got too much action in the second and third octaves in your system, move the sub off the wall and turn it down a little. In a room that size the PSW303 can shine (unless you've got 25 foot ceilings). If you still want more bass, another PSW303 might add more than scrapping your current sub and starting over.
    Currently listening to:

    Marantz SR5004
    Sony BDP-S370
    Apple TV V2
    Audio Technica AT-LP120
    Mirage CMD-5 x 5
    Bic H-100
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited June 2008
    O.K., probably should have put this info in the OP, but GAFF!
    Rig: Denon AVR-1905, 2x Outlaw Monoblocks, 2 Monitor 60's 1 PSW303
    Attached is the layout of my LR. Speakers are approx. 6' apart, with the listening position maybe that far back.
    NOT the best drawing, but it gives you an idea of how cramped it is, with the limitations of placement.
    I know I could probably fix/ improve sound quality, but until I remove/ replace my furniture, I thought I could make some other adjustment.
    I may very well be expecting to FIND a sound that doesn't exist.
    Trying not to turn into Capt. Ahab going after the white whale:eek::D
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • amulford
    amulford Posts: 5,020
    edited June 2008
    Move the sub to the other corner.
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited July 2008
    Treitz, um....you were right. I listened to some Vandersteen full range Flr. standers today and they didn't sound as good as Paradigm bookshelves+Sub.!?
    Doesn't make sense, but little in life does.
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • erm93ct
    erm93ct Posts: 14
    edited July 2008
    put the psw303 in a corner. it may sound boomy but you will hear it better
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  • uts294
    uts294 Posts: 3
    edited September 2008
    :)
    amulford wrote: »
    Move the sub to the other corner.

    Just like this
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  • candyliquor35m
    candyliquor35m Posts: 2,267
    edited September 2008
    some solid core speaker cables like romex electrical wire or anticable will help also. Gets rid of the distortion related boom and loudness and just passes the bare sweet music signal to the speaks.
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  • PTong88
    PTong88 Posts: 37
    edited September 2008
    Try a better subwoofer with a very rigid design. Also, take for account where you place it in your room.
    ONKYO TX-SR606
    polkaudio RM30 (Cntr)
    polkaudio RM7400T (Frnt L & R)
    polkaudio RM6902 (Surr L & R)
    polkaudio RM 6901 (Rear L & R)
    polkaudio DSW Pro 400 Sub (Front & Rear Sub)
    SAMSUNG HPS-5053, APC C2
    Microsoft XBox 360 Elite, Microsoft Xbox, SONY PlayStation 3, SONY Playstation 2, Nintendo Wii, SNES, Nintendo
    SONY CDP-CX455, SONY CDP-NC85H
    Monster HTS 5100 SS MKII, Monster PowerCenter SW 200, Monster PowerCenter AV 200
    Logitech Harmony 550
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  • ajanzalone
    ajanzalone Posts: 128
    edited September 2008
    candyliquor35m wrote: »
    some solid core speaker cables like romex electrical wire or anticable will help also. Gets rid of the distortion related boom and loudness and just passes the bare sweet music signal to the speaks.

    Really "romex" on your subs or all around?
    I thought stranded wire was the preferred?

    .... have plenty around here:D

    Tony
    Audio Research SP5 Preamp
    Quad 405 Amp
    Pioneer Elite DV-48AV -
    Outlaw 950 preamp/processor
    Polk Monitor 10's
    Velodyne VRP 1200 Sub Woofer

    Success is having what you want ... but Happiness is wanting what you have!
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