Dolby TrueHD & DtsHD question.

pearsall001

Does an AVR or pre/pro have to have these two formats on board to decode the BlueRay audio or does it come directly from the BlueRay player regardless if the AVR or pre/pro has them?

I've noticed that a lot on the newer AVR's have both formats & then there's a lot that don't. It varies by price & company. And if you only need the decoding done in the BlueRay player why would companies include the same formats in their AVR's?

jakelm

pearsall001 wrote: »

Does an AVR or pre/pro have to have these two formats on board to decode the BlueRay audio or does it come directly from the BlueRay player regardless if the AVR or pre/pro has them?

No an AVR does not have to be able to decode the formats. As long as the BR player can do it and there are 5.1/7.1 analog inputs on the AVR and the same outputs on the player, all is well.

However, the majority of the players on the market do NOT have analog out (probably to keep cost down) and only have HDMI. If this is the case, then the AVR must decode it itself.

I've noticed that a lot on the newer AVR's have both formats & then there's a lot that don't. It varies by price & company. And if you only need the decoding done in the BlueRay player why would companies include the same formats in their AVR's?

My reasoning for that, is the fact that TrueHD and DTS-HD will not be limited to disk , but I feel Cable HD and/or SAT HD will handle these formats in the future, as they handle DD now.

HD on PC will probably also handle the HD Audio. To have the format capabilities at the sorce of the HT (the AVR) instead of having it seperate with different components, eliminates the analog cables running from all component. Instead, 1 HDMI cable for each player/ Sat reciever/ Cable box.


....just my 2 cents

bobman1235

Most of the high-def video players I've seen also have optical / digital coax out that will output a downconverted DTS signal for receivers / processors that do not have the newer formats. My Toshiba HD-DVD player, for example, is doing this as my Outlaw does not have HDMI or know how to decode the new formats.

Shicks18

So is an extra $60-100 spent on an AVR with True HD and DtsHD money well spent?

cheddar

jakelm wrote: »

No an AVR does not have to be able to decode the formats. As long as the BR player can do it and there are 5.1/7.1 analog inputs on the AVR and the same outputs on the player, all is well.

However, the majority of the players on the market do NOT have analog out (probably to keep cost down) and only have HDMI. If this is the case, then the AVR must decode it itself.

Analog outs on a BR player are only necessary for those AVRs that do not have hdmi connections as toslink and coax can't handle the digital signal that lossless audio requires. It is a convenience for backwards compatibility with older equipment. Players that internally decode the lossless formats produce a digital PCM signal (the same PCM that results from an AVR decode) that transfers to an AVR just fine over hdmi.

The player has to do an extra PCM to analog conversion to send it out over analog outputs.

cheddar

pearsall001 wrote: »

I've noticed that a lot on the newer AVR's have both formats & then there's a lot that don't. It varies by price & company. And if you only need the decoding done in the BlueRay player why would companies include the same formats in their AVR's?

This was the same situation for DVD. Early AVRs and DVD players varied in decoding capabilities. DTS, for example, was absent on a lot of early equipment. Although HD-DVD and Blu-ray have been out for a few years now, it's really the first year that lossless decoding capabilities are starting to appear on the AVR side. And now Denon and Onkyo are pushing the pricepoints for these capabilities ever lower. So expect lossless decoding abilities on both sides to become far more common as the blu-ray format continues to roll out.

As I understand it, the decoding itself is a rather straightforward process. Differences in sound probably come more from the digital processing capabilities of the AVR after decoding and the chips that have to do the digital to analog conversion before the signal is sent out to the speakers. But if you have older connections, it does affect whether you have access to lossless audio as in addition to not all AVRs having hdmi connections (making player decoding/analog out necessary), you have to have the right hdmi connection from the player to the AVR to bitstream the TrueHD and DTS-HD MA signals to a decode capable AVR. Be sure to check the specs of your player to be sure that it can pass a lossless bitstream before you go the AVR decode route.

WilliamM2

cheddar wrote: »

Analog outs on a BR player are only necessary for those AVRs that do not have hdmi connections as toslink and coax can't handle the digital signal that lossless audio requires. It is a convenience for backwards compatibility with older equipment. Players that internally decode the lossless formats produce a digital PCM signal (the same PCM that results from an AVR decode) that transfers to an AVR just fine over hdmi.

The player has to do an extra PCM to analog conversion to send it out over analog outputs.

While mostly true, not all HDMI equiped recievers will accept LPCM over HDMI.

cheddar

WilliamM2 wrote: »

While mostly true, not all HDMI equiped recievers will accept LPCM over HDMI.

This is pretty limited in old equipment. I'd say if the OP was interested in shopping for a new AVR with possible internal decoding capabilities, they're very unlikely to run into this situation. But yes, if you've got one of the first HDMI capable AVRs, it's possible that it may run into compatibility issues (and not just limited to PCM, but you're probably already aware if you've got one).

Marty913

WilliamM2 wrote: »

While mostly true, not all HDMI equiped recievers will accept LPCM over HDMI.

Not to hijack someone's thread but it seems related. What's with all the lower / mid HDMI receivers that require a separate cable for audio? Does that mean they just drop the audio on the input HDMI and route the video to the output HDMI OR do they route both out but just don't make the input HDMI audio available for receiver processing? Make sense (or could you explain what I'm asking more clearly - Duh)?

cheddar

Are you talking about toslink, coax digital connections? These are legacy digital connections before the days of hdmi. Modern hdmi equipment can pass signals usually handled by these connections over hdmi instead. There are also some special proprietary digital connections from the likes of Denon (on higher end equipment) that handle high resolution audio from sacd/dvd-audio. There are usually options in set-up menus to configure which connections handle which input/outputs from various connected equipment.

Midnite Mick

Not just mid level. The new Arcam avr350 doesn't pass audio via hdmi and that is a 3k receiver. I think only the Onkyos and Pioneer elites currently do.

cheddar

Midnite Mick wrote: »

Not just mid level. The new Arcam avr350 doesn't pass audio via hdmi and that is a 3k receiver. I think only the Onkyos and Pioneer elites currently do.

Isn't the arcam at least a couple of years old? I know it may not seem like it, but two years is pretty early for an hdmi capable receiver.

WilliamM2

There are units that only do HDMI switching. Those would require a seperate cable for audio, as they do no processing.

Marty913

Midnite Mick wrote: »

Not just mid level. The new Arcam avr350 doesn't pass audio via hdmi and that is a 3k receiver. I think only the Onkyos and Pioneer elites currently do.

Thanks Mick, that is exactly what I'm referring to. Using Denon as an example, the 1508, 1708, and 1908 seems to require a separate audio cable. I believe the 2308 and 3808 offer "full switching". I guess my real question is what exactly are the repercussions? Can't they just pass it through untouched.

cheddar

If you really want to talk about the older units, hdmi rolled out with a variety of early, sometimes very confusing, standard formats. HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3. Not to mention the 1.3a's etc. The earliest units were not even 1.1 compatible. HDMI 1.1 can pass PCM. 1.2, I believe, handles some sacd audio stuff (DSD maybe?). 1.3 handles deep color and bitstreams the lossless audio formats. Although even 1.3 has exceptions for bitstreaming capabilities with the earliest chips.

So as you can see, the further back in hdmi you go, the more likely you are to run into audio compatibility problems. I think that early multiple hdmi flavors is one of the most frustrating parts of using hdmi in a rig.

pearsall001

The more I read the more you guys are confusing the **** out of me!!. Here's a question fo ya's...If I were to buy a new AVR or a pre/processor would it be imperative that they decode Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD. Or just leave that decoding to the BlueRay player. From what I gather the player would have to have analog outs to feed the audio to the AVR or pre/processor. Am I getting close here??

Midnite Mick

I think you got it bang on Phil....congrats:)

Mike

PS. btw. 6311's are in the house...looking mighty nice and sounding pretty sweet.....although I only have about 8 hours on them

pearsall001

Midnite Mick wrote: »

I think you got it bang on Phil....congrats:)

Mike

PS. btw. 6311's are in the house...looking mighty nice and sounding pretty sweet.....although I only have about 8 hours on them

I'm sure they are sweeeeeeet!!! Usher makes superb speakers. Enjoy.

So I actually have it correct about the TrueHD & the DtsHD? i'm starting to scare myself here.

avguytx

cheddar wrote: »

If you really want to talk about the older units, hdmi rolled out with a variety of early, sometimes very confusing, standard formats. HDMI 1.1, 1.2, 1.3. Not to mention the 1.3a's etc. The earliest units were not even 1.1 compatible. HDMI 1.1 can pass PCM. 1.2, I believe, handles some sacd audio stuff (DSD maybe?). 1.3 handles deep color and bitstreams the lossless audio formats. Although even 1.3 has exceptions for bitstreaming capabilities with the earliest chips.

So as you can see, the further back in hdmi you go, the more likely you are to run into audio compatibility problems. I think that early multiple hdmi flavors is one of the most frustrating parts of using hdmi in a rig.

But HDMI is supposed to make all of our AV lives much easier for connectivity, right? :eek: That's scary....it's like a tree that keeps branching out with all these new "rules". I guess it's main goal is to make equipment obsolete in a short amount of time so "we all" will keep buying it.

Hmmm.....lemme think about that. Nah....

Sherardp

I was about to ask this same question. In my new room Im using the Sony 7100ES, over HDMI Im getting LPCM when using my Sony BDPs1 and XA2 hi def players. Will I gain anything by using the onkyo 875 as my pre over the sony as far as SQ goes?

Shicks18

Yamaha's new RX-V663 and RX-V863 does audio through HDMI. They currently support HDMI 1.3a , so not just HDMI pass-through, but full out decoding of True HD and Dts HD through the HDMI!

You can find the v663 for under $400 as well.

Here is a solid review of the new line:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v663/

The 663 doesnt upscale video, but the 863 does. However that and a few small other features aren't enough to offset the $300 difference of the 2 AVRs

cheddar

pearsall001 wrote: »

The more I read the more you guys are confusing the **** out of me!!. Here's a question fo ya's...If I were to buy a new AVR or a pre/processor would it be imperative that they decode Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD. Or just leave that decoding to the BlueRay player. From what I gather the player would have to have analog outs to feed the audio to the AVR or pre/processor. Am I getting close here??

People are overstating the incompatibility problems with hdmi. For the newest AVRs, you are not likely to run into problems passing decoded player PCM via hdmi. The standard way to pass player decoded lossless is hdmi going forward, not analog outs.

Yes, the early hdmi versions give headaches to people trying to match gear. For instance, Outlaw's pre still uses dvi and is only now about to be replaced. But new stuff going forward should be simpler to match properly just like it's almost impossible to find dvd stuff incompatible with DTS now. Just do some basic homework before you buy. Make sure that whether it's decoded in the player or the AVR, that each has the necessary compatibility so that you can hear the lossless audio in the end, and you'll be fine. I would actually pay more attention to the quality of the other processing in the AVR rather than if it includes decoding for the new codecs. Especially if you're going to buy both a new AVR and blu-ray player. Decide on a new AVR you want for the SQ and listening you do first. If it decodes fine, in any case, make sure that you get a blu-ray player that is compatible with the AVR and you're good to go.

For the blu-ray player:

1) Analog outs for older equipment if necessary.
2) Internal decoding of all lossless formats if the AVR doesn't handle it.
3) HDMI 1.3 bitstreaming capable if you want the AVR to decode the lossless formats.
4) HDMI 1.1 or above connection to the AVR for passing decoded PCM if you're not using analog outs.

cheddar

Sherardp wrote: »

I was about to ask this same question. In my new room Im using the Sony 7100ES, over HDMI Im getting LPCM when using my Sony BDPs1 and XA2 hi def players. Will I gain anything by using the onkyo 875 as my pre over the sony as far as SQ goes?

Again, I think the biggest gains in SQ are in the digital processing chips and the digital to analog converters, not in the TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding chips.

billbillw

pearsall001 wrote: »

The more I read the more you guys are confusing the **** out of me!!. Here's a question fo ya's...If I were to buy a new AVR or a pre/processor would it be imperative that they decode Dolby TrueHD & Dts-HD. Or just leave that decoding to the BlueRay player. From what I gather the player would have to have analog outs to feed the audio to the AVR or pre/processor. Am I getting close here??

I'll make things simple for you.
YES!

If you are going to invest in a new AVR, GET ONE THAT DECODES EVERYTHING! It simply doesn't make any sense to spend that kind of money and not get the latest technology.

It will also makes things much easier when choosing a Bluray player. You simply look for one that "bitstreams" every codec. Something like the Panasonic BD30, the upcoming Pioneer 05FD or 51FD, or the upcoming Sony S350/S550 models.

If you were using a fairly new receiver (2-3 years old) that didn't decode everything but will still pretty capable, then I might recommend doing something different like getting a Bluray player that decodes everything.