My most exciting audio discovery

organ

A lot of you here have known me for years now and know that tube amplification is my preference. My equipments are constantly on rotation but my SS amp never stay for more than a few days. I always find that tubes give a much more realistic and natural presentation, especially directly heated triodes like the 300B and 2A3.

Yesterday, I picked up a pair of mono blocks and I am floored. Wait a minute, I thought it was a dream. It took me a few years to convince myself to get them because I wasn't sure if I would enjoy SS again and because of the high price. Well, now I know I have the best amp in my collection. And not just a little better. These mono's leave every other amps/int.s that I own or have heard in the dust. Hell, they're not even on the same planet. It doesn't sound like tubes, doesn't sound like SS. A totally new level of performance. NOTHING I've come across can even come close.
I don't even want to describe the sound because I'd go on for days. If you're interested, check out the 6moons review below.

For the sound quality, this 6moons review explains everything, including internal parts. The entire signal path is less than 5" long. I have to say that I agree 100% with everything mentioned in the review. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiozone/amp2.html However, the pics in the review is of the older model. I got the newer one. Same internals, just different casing. I think it looks much better. My dealer had both but I decided to pay a little more for the newer ones.

Before I forget, the amps are Audio Zone Amp-2. The newer version can be viewed on their site...
Their website is... http://inthezonenet.com/

I've been going to the same audio shop for about 2 years now. George, the dealer is a hardcore tube guy but prefer the AZ stuff. So I first found out about the AZ brand a few years ago. Audio Oasis (name of the store) is where these amps are made and sold around the world. He told me all the crazy stuff about AZ but it wasn't until I read the 6moons review that I finally decided to give them a try.

So I can say FOR SURE that my hunt for that perfect amp is done. Of course, until AZ release a newer design.

Have anybody else heard AZ stuff?

Gaara

Its a gainclone, haven't heard that AZ but have heard plenty of good clones, I use one in my basement rig and one for a surround amp. Their DAC is pretty stellar to, that I have used.

billbillw

Its very interesting how for so many years everyone said to stay way from IC based amplification. Problems with reliability and long term serviceability due to lack of the ICs after many years.

I'm curious what will happen to these expensive amps if/when the chips go bad and its been 20 years since National Semiconductor quite making the LM series chips.

SolidSqual

I've been looking at the AZ stuff as well. I first noticed these on the website of Underwood HiFi. The build and design looks extremely well thought out. How big is that power supply?

organ

Gaara,
That's cool. I'm planning to try them out on my LSi9. Hopefully they work good on Polks. So far I tried them on my Klipsch RF-35 and now the La Scala. Same results on both, Is that the AZ DAC you tried? I saw 2 at the shop when I went.

Bill,
If it was purchased from the dealer, I doubt you really need to worry. I believe it was the DIY'ers that had problems with them. These things run cold so I doubt they break easy. I'm sure the chips will be around for a long time, just like how you can find NOS tubes today. They were probably mass produced in the millions.

SS,
the power supply is in the same chassis as the amp section. Each mono measures 3"h, 9"d and 6" across. I'll post a pic tomorrow when I can get the camera. The build quality is A+. So far it's the most solid amp I've come across. Weight is probably about 15-20lbs each.

Sean,
Long time no see bro. Thanks for the heads up on the Karan. Is that a gain clone as well? I know you've been into chip amps for a while now. Just wondering what your thoughts are on gain clones vs digital amps? Let's forget about damping and power output. I'm wondering because AZ just released some new high powered digital amps and those look interesting.

billbillw

organ wrote: »

Bill,
If it was purchased from the dealer, I doubt you really need to worry. I believe it was the DIY'ers that had problems with them. These things run cold so I doubt they break easy. I'm sure the chips will be around for a long time, just like how you can find NOS tubes today. They were probably mass produced in the millions.

I wasn't speaking of any current problems with the chip amps, I am speaking about the stuff from the 80's that used IC based amp chips. People generally suggest to stay away from because the ICs in the amp section are nearly impossible to find these days.

I was just speaking about how its kind of ironic how things shift. For many years (80s/90s/early 2000s), in the world of solid state, everyone pushed discrete amp topology as the best. Now things are shifting again. The T-amp and all these chip amps are changing that. Like I said, it will be interesting how these chip amps are viewed 20-30 years from now. Yes the chips are mass produced, but at some point they will be discontinued and supplies will eventually become scarce. At this point, nobody knows how reliable these chips will be in the long run.

organ

Sean,
Yeah, those were good times lol. I remember when you blew your RT2000's cuz the neighbours were pissing you off.

I agree with you. My dealer feels that this type of amplification will be the future. I think the future will be different though. I can see all types of amps (tubes, chips, transistors) co-existing peacefully together. I just don't see tubes going away at all. Even though the chips are the best I've heard, the tube presentation is very different, especially the low powered tubes (under 10w/ch).
This might sound strange but if I had to describe the sound of the AZ, it would be like sitting in the shade at a nice beach on a very clear and sunny day.
With the SET amps, it's like being on a tiny boat floating along the Amazon while there is a nice thick fog 20ft above the water and everything in the middle is crystal clear.
So I feel the SET amps give more of a "dream like" quality to the sound.
I need both lol:D.

That Karan sounds crazy. I still can't get over the fact that they can make these amps run so cool. The efficiency now is just crazy compared to what was available 10 years ago.

Bill,
Sorry man, mis-read your post there. Yeah, I agree. Hopefully this design continues to be produced well into the future so that there would always be a demand for the chips. Not sure what the status is on IC's is right now, but I hope it keeps evolving together with the simplest of circuits.



I took some pics of the amps and speakers last night. I placed a jewel case beside one of the monos to show its small size. Sorry for the bad lighting. For some reason, I can never get the pics of my rig bright enough.

Gaara

organ wrote: »

Gaara,
That's cool. I'm planning to try them out on my LSi9. Hopefully they work good on Polks. So far I tried them on my Klipsch RF-35 and now the La Scala. Same results on both, Is that the AZ DAC you tried? I saw 2 at the shop when I went.

I really like the Gainclone/LSi9 combo. To be honest I feel my clone performs admirably on all my systems, if it didn't clip at reference levels w/HT it would be in the main rig. Your AZs should perform well, but not great. The 3875 chip excels into 8ohm loads, that is why I got a 3886 gainclone, it has 2x the current and is much better into difficult loads.

As for the AZ dac, I lied it was AudioSector, Peter Daniel's DIY offshoot company. Same DAC, you just buy the parts and build it yourself. I got mine used, and felt it was phenomenal. The combo of a NOS DAC, TVC, and gainclone gives amazing clarity into the music...really something amazing.

Congrats again on the purchase.

Ern Dog

Well I just pulled the trigger on a used version of the AZ amp-2. I'm excited to hear how it sounds driving my Dynaudio's. I'm going to have to learn more about what a gainclone is. Off to google.

dcarlson

Maurice... Nice to see you're still around and experimenting.

I've been racking my brain around an office setup. Right now, I've got laptop/maudio transit/Bel Canto DAC2/Rotel RA-932(That I actually bought from Zero a while back Lol.)/Polk RT25i setup.

I've been thinking SET amp with MM Decapo's to replace the Rotel and Polks.

Have you had a chance to hear the Decapo's anywhere down in the GTA?

organ

Sean,
I thought you were looking around for another pair of 2000's? I think they were the best looking speakers in Polk's RT line.
If you get the chance to hear some 2A3 or 300B SET, you should audition. This "human" element you're talking about is what those two types do best. Solo instruments or vocals is excellent.
Do you have a pic of the Karan?

Gaara,
Oh yeah, I think they're pretty much the exact same DAC. I'd like to get all AZ stuff for my rig. Not sure if I want to upgrade to the DAC first or have them beef up my Rega with better caps and stuff.

Just wondeing, do you find that your gain clones take a little while to warm up and sound their best? It's just that whenever I listen this past few days, it seems like they take 30mins minimum before they start to sound good. At about the 1hr mark, its extremely good. It has that SS sound for the first 30 mins or so.

Looks like we're into the same stuff. I also think TVC is the sh#t. I got one from ASL and it's better than any other powered pre amps I own (including tubes). From now on, my pre-amplification will only be passive.

I've already started saving up for the AZ PRE-T1 because I feel that none of the pre amps I own are in the same level as the amp-2. So far the passive ASL work much better than the others.


Ern Dog,
Congrats man. I hope you enjoy them as much as I do. Did you get the older one or newer? The only difference is the chasis.
I haven't done enough research, but it seems like gain clones uses a single chip for everything. In a normal transistor amp, you'd have a seperate circuit for feed back, another circuit for voltage regulation and things like that while in a gain clone, all these circuits are in one small chip. IC for Integrated Circuit. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Also, the signal path on the AZ stuff is super short.


Derick,
So good to see you again man! That's a kick **** office system. What are you using in your main system?
I haven't heard Decapo's. Those are the "Reference 3" speakers, right? From what I know, most people who own them are powering them with SET amps. Is there a particular amp you're looking at? My fav SET amp so far is the ASL tulip. It uses transformers as the first gain stage. Very unique. They can be had for 1k or less used. Here's a pic. Mind the tape over the LED light. It's too bright.

dcarlson

My anthems and SDA's don't get too much usage at home anymore it's just not a priority. My office setup is where I listen, hence the upgrade path. I went down a headphone path for a while but the presentation just isn't the same.

I was thinking Spendor and somehow ended up reading all sorts on Reference 3a.

I saw a used ASL AQ1005 DT integrated that had me thinking. I like the integrated idea at the very least real estate is limited on my desk.

Gaara

organ wrote: »

Sean,
Gaara,
Oh yeah, I think they're pretty much the exact same DAC. I'd like to get all AZ stuff for my rig. Not sure if I want to upgrade to the DAC first or have them beef up my Rega with better caps and stuff.

Just wondeing, do you find that your gain clones take a little while to warm up and sound their best? It's just that whenever I listen this past few days, it seems like they take 30mins minimum before they start to sound good. At about the 1hr mark, its extremely good. It has that SS sound for the first 30 mins or so.

Looks like we're into the same stuff. I also think TVC is the sh#t. I got one from ASL and it's better than any other powered pre amps I own (including tubes). From now on, my pre-amplification will only be passive.

I've already started saving up for the AZ PRE-T1 because I feel that none of the pre amps I own are in the same level as the amp-2.

Yep, same taste just different ends of the spectrum. My clone was $160...yours probably 10x that amount. Same goes for the TVC, main one was ~$500, but the pre for my LSi9 rig is just a pair of stepped attenuators I got for $80.

As for warm up time, I notice mine takes around 20-30 mins to come into its own. I never noticed any difference on my 4ch clone but it is only used for the surrounds anyway.

I think you asked somewhere about the chips, there are clones with more than 1 chip. My BPA200 uses 4 lm3886 chips per channel, so 16 total. If I recall correctly a BPA300 uses 6 and BPA100 uses 2.

P.S. Ever tried your clone vs any of the newer class D amps or class T? I think sound quality wise my clone sounds like good class T, like the Trends TA 10.1 and surprisingly similar to icepower.

Ern Dog

Organ,
How did the amp sound driving your Lsi9's and your other Polks?

The Amp-2 I bought is the older chasis and according to Robert at Audio Eden, it was originally the personal amp of the designer, Peter Daniel.

organ

Derick,
That's cool. Man, I think that's the same ASL I almost picked up last week. I found a dealer about 1hr north that was selling the same one. I"ve heard plenty of great things about the Ref 3a. Hope you get your new sytem up and running soon.

Sean,
That's a beautiful int. Thanks for posting the pic. I prefer the simple look without flashing lights and buttons. I'd love to get my ears on one of those one day. The Yamamoto stuff are pretty high $, if you want to hear one sooner, see if you can hunt down a used one. Not easy, but they go on sale once in a while.

Gaara,
No, I've never tried any class D amps or T. That's why I'm quite curious about the pecking order of these designs. Well, I guess, synergy will determine which one works best, but I still don't know the pros and cons of each. I'd like to hear a digital amp next, but don't feel the need right now. I'm getting everything I could ask for with the AZ. Oh yeah, forgot about the chips. Wonder if SQ is affected if you use too many chips to up the power to say....300w/ch?

Ern Dog,
Sorry man, I still haven't tried them with the LSi9. They sound so good on the La Scala that I can't get myself to get up and unhook them.
When are you expecting yours?

Gaara

organ wrote: »

Derick,
Gaara,
No, I've never tried any class D amps or T. That's why I'm quite curious about the pecking order of these designs. Well, I guess, synergy will determine which one works best, but I still don't know the pros and cons of each. I'd like to hear a digital amp next, but don't feel the need right now. I'm getting everything I could ask for with the AZ. Oh yeah, forgot about the chips. Wonder if SQ is affected if you use too many chips to up the power to say....300w/ch?

From my experience it really depends on synergy. I have tried various Ice power amps, Nuforce, 3 class T amps, and a few gainclones. With my Gallos my current EVS icepower amps are by far the best match, but with my Rothschildes I preferred my Monarchy Class A amp over both icepower and the gainclone. Hard to determine a hierarchy because various types work better with different speakers, plus it is unfair to compare a $2k pair of amps to a $160 DIY amp.

As for the chips, the maker of my clones is Tim Rawson, and he seems to feel that the more chips the better. He really likes the BPA300 amps, w/6 chips per channel. I would have gone that route for my surround amp but the heat output was more than I could handle.

Ern Dog

[/QUOTE]Ern Dog,
Sorry man, I still haven't tried them with the LSi9. They sound so good on the La Scala that I can't get myself to get up and unhook them.
When are you expecting yours?[/QUOTE]

They should arrive before the end of the week. I emailed George about whether he thought the amp would be a good match for my Dynaudio's at 87 db sensitivity and 4 ohms. He said the Amp-2 works best with speakers at 90 db or higher and suggested the Amp-D2 as a better fit. That's their new class D amp with 200wpc!!! I couldn't find any reviews on it yet. I'm sure the amp-2 will be fine as long as I don't crazy with the volume.

organ

Gaara,
Yeah, synergy should play a bigger role. It's interesting to see all these new amps coming out. By icepower, you're talking about digital, right? How did you like the NuForce? Those are quite pricey digital amps.

Ern Dog,
Ok, I finally had a chance to power the LSi9 while I was playing around with the Omegas and Crnwalls. I rarely use my LSi aymore, but it did sound much better than last I remember them. They controlled the bass extremely well and everything I observed with the other speakers was present with the LSi (improved dynamics, speed, openness, etc). However, I didn't try them at high levels because everyone else were sleeping. Let's hope you get some great results on your Danes.
Can't wait to hear what you think of them. Remember to keep the average level at a comfy level because the sudden dynamic swings and climaxes can get very loud with the Amp-2. Even the transients on a snare drum is razor sharp and very quick at low volume.
Are the Danes your only pair of speakers?

I spoke to George on Wed because he wanted feedback on the amps. I was a little dissapointed when he informed me that the Pre-T1 is no longer being made because he can't source the transformers anymore. I had already started saving my pennies for it. Instead, I may have to go for the Pre-A1.
It will probably be a while before we see a review on the D-1 and 2 amps because they're still new. I saw them last time I was at his store. Very nice looking amps.

Ern Dog

organ wrote: »

Ern Dog,
Ok, I finally had a chance to power the LSi9 while I was playing around with the Omegas and Crnwalls. I rarely use my LSi aymore, but it did sound much better than last I remember them. They controlled the bass extremely well and everything I observed with the other speakers was present with the LSi (improved dynamics, speed, openness, etc). However, I didn't try them at high levels because everyone else were sleeping. Let's hope you get some great results on your Danes.
Can't wait to hear what you think of them. Remember to keep the average level at a comfy level because the sudden dynamic swings and climaxes can get very loud with the Amp-2. Even the transients on a snare drum is razor sharp and very quick at low volume.
Are the Danes your only pair of speakers?

I spoke to George on Wed because he wanted feedback on the amps. I was a little dissapointed when he informed me that the Pre-T1 is no longer being made because he can't source the transformers anymore. I had already started saving my pennies for it. Instead, I may have to go for the Pre-A1.
It will probably be a while before we see a review on the D-1 and 2 amps because they're still new. I saw them last time I was at his store. Very nice looking amps.

I also have a pair of Rti10's. Glad to hear the amp is a good match with the Lsi's. That sucks about the Pre-T1. I had a fantasy of purchasing one in the future as it is a synergistic match with the amp. Next time you're at the shop, give those D-2's a listen for me.

Gaara

organ wrote: »

Gaara,
Yeah, synergy should play a bigger role. It's interesting to see all these new amps coming out. By icepower, you're talking about digital, right? How did you like the NuForce? Those are quite pricey digital amps.

Yeah, icepower is B&Os class D amps. They sell the modules and other companies make them, like Bel Canto, Jeff Rowland, PS Audio, etc. They are known for great sound quality, small size, and run cool.

As for Nufurce, I used them in my main rig for a few weeks. I thought they were very nice amps, just overpriced. I used the 8.02 amps which was their lower powered ones. I preferred a pair of icepower amps to the Nuforce, and the icepower ones were cheaper.

organ

Ern Dog,
No problem. They had them hooked up to a pair of bookshelfs (don't know model). I really want to try a digital amp but I feel it's too early at the moment.
I've decided to get the Pre-A1 instead. I should be able to it them by Aug.
You should try the Amp-2 on your RT's as well. So far they sound incredible with all the speakers I've tried them on.

Gaara,
Thanks for the info on IP and NuForce. I wonder how much longer it will take before digital amps really mature. There is a B&O store near my workplace. Gonna have to drop by one of these days and have a look. I couldn't believe the damping factors on those NuForce when I saw the specs. That's insane!

Ern Dog

My Audio zone amp-2 monoblocks finally arrived and after the first song or two, I thought is sounded mediocre. It wasn't until the 4th or 5th song that it started to open up. I've never heard such 3-D imaging before from my rig. For the first time, I felt all my audio gear disappear! I can't wait try try some classical music next.

Organ- I want to thank you for starting this thread. It was reading your post and links that clicked inside that "I have to get this amp."

I gotta get back to listening.....

JoeLR

How appropriate that I recently joined this site & saw this thread today... I s/w Wally @ Underwood Hi-Fi about the Amp-D2 recently. Class D-power is really intriguing to me, even given the bad rap that Class D amps, in general, have received in the past (Re: poor treble response). I'm glad to read of good results, and these amps will be at the top of my list when I purchase in a few months.

steveinaz

One of my most exciting audio discoveries arrived yesterday...review coming soon...

Congrats Organ on the mono blocks.

JoeLR

I don't want to derail this thread, so my apologies...but I just didn't think it made sense for me to clutter the board w/ a specific question w/ regards to the Amp-D2-- do you think the Primare Pre30 would match well? My current speakers are Monitor Audio GS60...

organ

Ern Dog,
Awesome. Glad to hear you're enjoying them and that they're working out with your Danes. Do they run out of steam at high spl? I think the AZ will be my last amp for a very long time. They just do everything right.
You should try your Polks on them too. You'll probably get some extra dynamics due to higher sensitivity.

I'm going to see George in the next few weeks to get the Pre-A1. I can't wait.

Steve,
Ha! I think I know exactly what your discovery is:). Welcome to the land of the passives:cool:.

Joe,
I have no experience with that pre, but I don't see why it wouldn't work out.
You might want to give both the Amp-2 and Amp-D2 a try. One is a gain clone and the other is digital. Nice speakers you have btw.

ND13

Maurice has sold out to the ss side.:p;)

JoeLR

organ wrote: »

Joe,
I have no experience with that pre, but I don't see why it wouldn't work out.
You might want to give both the Amp-2 and Amp-D2 a try. One is a gain clone and the other is digital. Nice speakers you have btw.

Thank you kindly... Can you confirm whether the Amp-D2 is TRULY balanced? I've sent the same question to a dealer, but no response yet. I guess I'll be looking for a different pre as Primare (& Sumiko, their US distributor) don't seem to want to sell to me (nearest dealer is 4+ hours away & won't ship to me). Weird...

organ

Noel,
I couldn't resist. The SS fairy told me to. She....'s....so.....pre...tty..:). Don't worry man, I'm still playing on both sides. The EL34, 2A3 and 300B amps are staying.

Joe,
According to their website www.inthezonenet.com the D2 does have XLR.
These amps are made in Audio Oasis and I believe they ship to the states. Here's their ad... http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/83845-audio_zone_ampd1__ampd2_dclass_are_now_available/ You can also ask if they have any demo models for sale. But make sure you ask before buying if XLR is included. Sometimes mistakes happen. Hope the info on the site is not a typo.