Turn Table < CPD ???

Bass_Pedal

This will be a very newby type question but here goes...

I have had my stock Project Debut 3 TT for about a month now, I am using a Project Phonobox 2 for my phono stage. I know that there are many factors that go into analogue sound, the deck, the cartridge, the tone arm, the stylus, then you have all the regular issues down the line like the preamp and the amplifier. Luckily my question can be narrowed down, I think. I have noticed that when listening to brand new vinyl (can't compare old records as conditions vary) the sound is not as rich or involving or dynamic as the exact same CD recording played on my Cambridge 640CV2. I assumed it would have been the other way around. I’m wondering, does this sound correct and if so I guess that means I need to upgrade my TT. The first thing that comes to mind would be the cartridge but I have absolutely no experience in this area, does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks

SKsolutions

Slippery slope.

You can start upgrading the TT with all the bits and pieces, dollar by dollar, month by month over the next two years. . . actually think you have found nirvana, and swear to it too. . . .

Then you hear someone else's digital rig so you. . .

Chuck the whole thing in the Flea Market and buy a sexy new CDP.. . . . add a tube buffer, outboard DAC, silver cables, new pre, dollar by dollar, month by month over the next few years. . . .actually think you have found nirvana, and swear to it too. . . .

Only to chuck it all in the Flea Market and pick up the next TT you see.

Aint it fun! Masochists.

dcmeigs

Cartridges are wear items, consumables, like tires. Your's could be shot.

They vary wildly in quality. A thousand dollars doesn't come close to the pinacle (at least in price).

You may be comparing a very good CDP to a very cheap cartridge. You didn't mention brand or model.

unc2701

It could just be bad vinyl. Since you say it's brand new, I'm guessing that means a recent pressing & many of those aren't very good. There's more art in mastering vinyl and a lot of that talent has retired. The result is tons of crappy recordings.

Ricardo

From your post I am guessing that the cartridge is also new, but is it aligned correctly? Tracking force ok? Lots of variables that can make a difference in sound from great to crap.

skipf

Ricardo is spot on. Even a $3000 cartridge will not perform if it isn't set up properly. It would also be helpful to know what cartridge you are using and if your phono stage is set properly for that cartridge.

Bass_Pedal

Thanks for the responses,

The Debut three comes with an Ortofon OM 5E cartridge pre-installed. It's an MM cartridge and my phono stage is set to MM. As for the records I have been testing, I've done A-B comparisons with Radiohead's OK Computer, Kid A and In Rainbows. All three sound better on my CDP as I mentioned in the OP. I have been looking around a bit and found that several people that own the Debut 3 have upgraded the cartridge. Not sure which one to go with. I'm thinking something under $500.

Thanks

skipf

I asked The Needle Doctor folks for a cartridge recommendation for my AR, and their strongest suggestion was to go with an Ortofon MM2 (or 2MM) bronze at $350 or black at $600. Haven't heard either, but maybe some others here have heard it. Your cartridge alignment may have been factory set, but could well have changed during shipment. A very slight change in verticle or horizontal tracking angle or stylus pressure can make a huge difference in sound.

Bass_Pedal

skipf wrote: »

Your cartridge alignment may have been factory set, but could well have changed during shipment. A very slight change in verticle or horizontal tracking angle or stylus pressure can make a huge difference in sound.

How would I be able to measure stylus pressure or determine my tracking angle? I know in my initial set-up I adjusted the counterweight on the tone arm as specified for the cartridge provided. Beyond that I couldn’t say for sure if the cartridge itself was installed properly or if it was moved out of place during shipping. Anyway I could determine this for myself?

cstpeter

Bass_Pedal wrote: »

Thanks for the responses,

The Debut three comes with an Ortofon OM 5E cartridge pre-installed. It's an MM cartridge and my phono stage is set to MM. As for the records I have been testing, I've done A-B comparisons with Radiohead's OK Computer, Kid A and In Rainbows. All three sound better on my CDP as I mentioned in the OP. I have been looking around a bit and found that several people that own the Debut 3 have upgraded the cartridge. Not sure which one to go with. I'm thinking something under $500.

Thanks

Bass Pedal:

I have a Pro-Ject Xpression TT, which is comparable to the Debut. I wasn't blown away by vinyl at first, especially with new recordings. However, I experienced a big improvement after upgrading the cartridge to the Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 and getting a Pro-Ject Speedbox.

By the way, I have OK Computer on both CD and vinyl and the latter sounds better. However, many of my other newer albums sound better on CD.

dcmeigs

Bass_Pedal wrote: »

How would I be able to measure stylus pressure ?

There are scales for that but I've never owned one. I set the counter-weight until the cartrige just floats above the vinyl. Then set the scale to zero. Then dial in the proper force for that cartridge. All done.

Bass_Pedal

Thanks guys,

I'll take a look at some cartridges in my price range. The Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 is a moving coil cartridge which I don't think will work on the Debut 3 unless I change the platter. Which I am sure I will do at some point, until then I will check out some reasonably priced moving magnet cartridges for an upgrade.

jm1

Bass_Pedal wrote: »

Thanks guys,

I'll take a look at some cartridges in my price range. The Sumiko Blue Point No. 2 is a moving coil cartridge which I don't think will work on the Debut 3 unless I change the platter. Which I am sure I will do at some point, until then I will check out some reasonably priced moving magnet cartridges for an upgrade.

Before changing anything, I would try different tracking forces. The manufacturers recommended setting is a ballpark setting at best. Try going lower and higher from your current setting. My guess would be lighter based on your description.

It is an iterative process to determine the optimum setting for each cartridge/tonearm/TT. Only make small changes and listen to the results. You will reach a point where it will all snap into place. This will be a fairly narrow window so remember to make SMALL changes.

I am not sure why you would need to change the platter to use a different cartridge? Maybe there is something I am not aware of with Project TTs. Please elaborate why you feel you would need to change the platter for another cartridge.

I looked at the user manual for the TT. Did you get a cartridge alignment jig with the TT? If not, I would not recommend touching the current location or changing the cartridge until you have one. I see Project has the 'Pro-Ject Align it' accessory. This is what you would need to check your current or install a new cartridge.

If you purchased this at a local store, check with them to see if they can give you a TT 101 class so you are more familiar with TTs.

Let us know if changes to the VTF (vertical tracking force) take you closer to your goal.

JM

Bass_Pedal

I read that there is an issue with the aluminum platter, apparently it wrecks moving coil cartridges. I don't have a cartridge alignment tool, when I do get a new one I plan on taking the TT back to the store I purchased it to have it installed, they have a very large service department. I am now going to make a few minor adjustments to the tracking force as suggested, I will post the results.

Thanks