A nice alternative to Solen and/or Dayton caps

billbillw

I went ahead and rebuilt the x-overs on my 1C the other day. I probably would have held off for a while, but when I was looking at them a week ago, I noticed how much different the two x-overs were with respect to the parts installed. Not to mention, one of the xover boards was loose due to broken taps on the plastic standoffs.

The original receipt for this pair of 1C indicates that they were purchased from the dealer as floor models/demos. The serial #s are way off for some reason, and the dates on the x-overs were built almost a year apart. The mylar caps were noticeably different (same values though), the tweeter protection micro switches were different, the resistors were from a different lot, etc.

So, I was anxious to get these rebuilt, mainly to get them to an identical state with respect to caps, resistors, etc., and to get the loose xover secured properly.

I debated about what caps to use. I personally don't believe Sonicaps are worth the extra money for the low pass shunt caps, so for the larger 20uf and 40uf, I was pretty much planning to stick with Dayton 5% Metalized Polys, Solens, or Jantzen Cross-Caps. For the tweeter circuit (12uf and 4.4uf), I tossed the idea of Dayton, Solen, Claritycaps, Sonicaps, and a few models of the Jantzen caps.

Ultimately, I decided to try the Jantzen Cross-Caps in the tweeter section, mainly because I read many good things about them, they are relatively inexpensive, and they are physically smaller and more manageable than some of the others. For the low pass shunts, I stuck with Dayton. I would have went exclusively with Jantzen, but Dayton had values that matched to original BP electros exactly and Jantzen did not.

I had to double up the Jantzens in the tweeter bandpass circuit to get 4.4uF (3.9+.47), but I couldn't find a 4.4 in most of the other brands either.

Anyway, I'm very pleased with the sound. The Jantzens seem to be very clean and neutral. I don't hear any coloration or smearing in the highs or mids. The size allows a much tighter fit to the board too, which should have an advantage of shorter leads, less vibration, etc.

Obviously, I'm still in the break-in phase with these, but so far, I haven't heard anything that I don't like, and I have heard plenty of what I like.
The most noticeable improvement that is immediate is the increased depth/width of the sound stage.

Don't underestimate having the x-overs closely matched when it comes to the effect on the stereo image width/depth and seamlessness.

Other immediate improvements are in the tightness and speed of the bass, smoothness of the upper range, and the ability to resolve greater detail from complex passages.

Anyway, If you are looking at a xover rebuild, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Jantzen Cross-Caps. I've redone a few sets of speakers using the Daytons exclusively, but I feel the Jantzens are more neutral and better suited for use in a tweeter/midrange circuit.

BTW: Jantzens are now carried by PartsExpress and they have a large selection in stock. Apparently the higher model 'Superior Z-cap' is one of the highest rated/best sounding caps out there if you trust some of the recent 'cap shootouts' that have been discussed lately.

dorokusai

Excellent!

Ricardo

Great; I like the size. I have been planning to do my CRS+'s; I used Solen in the 1.2 TL's, Sonicap in the 3.1 TL's, and Dayton in the 7B's, so I think I'll go with those Jantzens with the little ones.

tryrrthg

I used Dayton, Solen and Jantzen in my DIY MTM speakers and they all seemed about the same in quality. As far as sound, who the hell knows, the speakers sound great for the money I have in them.

zingo

Thanks for the info. I might look at using those on the next rebuild if for no other reason than PE carries them. Plus you can't argue with the gold on black lettering.

george daniel

Very nice work Bill.

billbillw

george daniel wrote: »

Very nice work Bill.

Thanks, although I'm kicking myself for not using a pair of 2.2uF Jantzens to make up 4.4 instead of having lopsided values of 3.9 and .47uf. Oh well:mad:

BTW, I did end up using screw mounted standoffs to replace the original tabbed ones; complements to my pair of RadioShack Accurian amplifiers for their contribution

dcmeigs

Nice work. I too like the colors and fonts on those cap. Shame to hide them

It looks like the 1Cs have the same board as the CRS and 2Bs.

The 1As have two separate boards like a pair of monitor 10s boards. I like your single board design a lot better. Plugs too. Very nice.

Humm, yet another advantage of the 1C over the 1A.

ben62670

reported

brabus420

Nice work!

Face

I have a pair of Tannoy's that need a recap. A almost identical pair were recently recapped with Dayton 1%'s, maybe I'll consider Jantzen for these. Would be a interesting comparison.

ben62670

Thats cool. I await your review.

Tex

Thanks for the info. I am about to rebuild the crossovers in my SRS 2's. I have been debating between spending the money for the Sonicaps or using Daytons and putting the difference towards some tweeters. I think that I will consider Jantzen myself. I will try to wait for your final review.

billbillw

Tex wrote: »

Thanks for the info. I am about to rebuild the crossovers in my SRS 2's. I have been debating between spending the money for the Sonicaps or using Daytons and putting the difference towards some tweeters. I think that I will consider Jantzen myself. I will try to wait for your final review.

Tex,
If it comes down to money for the tweeters of money for the Sonicaps, go for the tweeters, no doubt.

The stock crossover with the RDO silks will be much better sounding than the SL2000 with Sonicaps.

Whetever you do, don't waste money putting Sonicaps in the low pass shunts (the caps that run in parallel to the mid-woofers). Use Daytons for those. If you want to try Sonicaps, only splurge for the tweeter section caps.

Personally, I'd do it in steps. Get the Silk domes first, listen for a few weeks, then do the xover upgrade. That way you can hear how each change affects the overall sound.

F1nut

Waste of money to use Sonicaps for the low pass? Well, I don't think so. You should hear the bass I get.

RuSsMaN

Wow, thinking outside the box? Crucify the man!

Good on ya, nice write up. Different caps for left handed people I always say.

Jesse, and they call you 'pres', pffft.

Cheers,
Russ (of the Sonicap Russes)

F1nut

Put the bottle down and sober up Russ. After that, maybe you'll realize how ridiculous your comments are.

RuSsMaN

Nice. Put the sassafras down, and realize how closed minded you are.

I find it amusing, yet somehow at the same time sad that you make fun of people that engage in spirits and (try to) handle it, when that is your personal vice. Get over yourself. Have an octuple already,or shut the F up on the topic.

Someone tried something different? How dare they!!! Give me a break, why am I even taking the time, with the dunderhead retort to follow? God forbid an open mind and common sense take over?

Nevermind / Rant Off .....................................

billbillw

F1nut wrote: »

Waste of money to use Sonicaps for the low pass? Well, I don't think so. You should hear the bass I get.

You should hear the bass I get with a set of Daytons in my 1C. In fact, you should hear the bass you would get with Daytons in the low pass circuit of whatever speaker you are using.

It would be the same or so close that it would be very hard to justify the extra money ($130, using a pair of 1C as an example).

I don't believe that anyone here has actually compared using lower cost metalized poly caps versus Sonicaps in the low pass circuit of the same speaker. Most either go the cost effective route through the whole circuit, or they just go for it all and spend whatever it takes to have the best in every spot of the xover. Sonicaps across the board! All the experts say that those caps (parallel shunt caps in the bass circuit) are not crucial, but at the same time, everyone who rebuilds their xover claims improved bass definition, doesn't matter if its with Sonicaps or Daytons. Seems to me, using any metalized poly cap in place of those BP electros will offer an improvement in bass.

If you just want to throw money away, go ahead and use the best caps in every spot. If you want to get the best bang for your buck, use Daytons in the less crucial locations.

F1nut

Perhaps you do need a break Russ. The passive/aggressive thing isn't working anymore.


BTW, wrong vice, that one is all yours. Mine was something entirely different.

F1nut

If you just want to throw money away, go ahead and use the best caps in every spot. If you want to get the best bang for your buck, use Daytons in the less crucial locations.

You see, I'm not the one telling you what to use or that the Dayton's are an inferior product. So, where do you get off saying that the Sonicap's are a waste of money. The low pass may be a less crucial circuit, but it still matters. And yes, I have tried Solen's (no Dayton's however) and Sonicap's in the low pass, I prefer the Sonicap's.

RuSsMaN

Blah blah blah.

Sonicaps it is. blah blah blah.

billbillw

F1nut wrote: »

...So, where do you get off saying that the Sonicap's are a waste of money...

I started the thread, that's my opinion and it was aimed towards Tex, who sounded like he was trying to get the best bang/buck out of his upgrade fund.

mrbigbluelight

It would be kind of spiffy (that's right, I said "spiffy") if someone made a chart up for comparative costs for different cap manufacturers.


POLK MODEL on the y-axis,
JANTZEN, SONICAPS,DAYTON,SOLEN on the x-axis.

TOTAL COST .... uh ..... heck, I don't know .... bottom of the columns ?

(that's why I'm not an accountant, I'm not a spreadsheet guru )


I guess I could do that myself, except for 2 things:

1. Gawd I'm lazy
2. See #1
3. Any spreadsheet I come up will convince you to buy Bose.

Okay, that's 3 reasons .... that's why I won't try tackling any spreadsheet stuff.

F1nut

Bill, something you should read.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69245

Russ......blah, blah......LOL

ben62670

F1nut wrote: »

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69245

I so want to be the kitty in that thread:eek:
Pan down. I mean scroll down:D

billbillw

F1nut wrote: »

Bill, something you should read.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69245

Russ......blah, blah......LOL

Because everything Raife says is golden huh? :rolleyes:
Why do you feel that you have to dredge this up again?

F1nut

No, because everything that I say is golden.

Why? See above.

Pffft!

amulford

Now now...

heiney9

billbillw wrote: »

Because everything Raife says is golden huh? :rolleyes:
Why do you feel that you have to dredge this up again?

I will say when it comes to the technical abstract and having rock solid testing methods, Raife is numero uno! That doesn't discount you or anyone else's observations.

In the end it's still all just an opinion, but Raife has proven over and over to be one helluva detail oriented person. Something I think even if you don't agree with is worth reading and taking points into consideration looking at the big picture.

H9

billbillw

heiney9 wrote: »

I will say when it comes to the technical abstract and having rock solid testing methods, Raife is numero uno! That doesn't discount you or anyone else's observations.

In the end it's still all just an opinion, but Raife has proven over and over to be one helluva detail oriented person. Something I think even if you don't agree with is worth reading and taking points into consideration looking at the big picture.

H9

Oh, don't worry. I generally read everything that Raife posts and I value his often over analytical test methods. At the same time, I (and many others here) do not have endless supplies of money to dump into this hobby and I/we need to find the best bang for the buck when upgrading equipment and or making mods. My original advice above was aimed at someone who obviously was trying to be frugal about their upgrades. Even Raife says that the biggest gains come from upgrading from the stock caps to ANY decent polypropylene cap. I'm still sticking by my opinion that the gains in going from a Dayton to a Sonicap in the low pass are not going to be noticed by most listeners.

I really have to question whether anyone truly has the audio memory to accurately compare a before/after when they are separated by several hours of mods plus more than 100 hours of break-in over many days/weeks. Anyone who is honest to themselves about this hobby has to admit that our minds tend to always embellish the results of cable changes or crossover/equipment mods and usually tend to favor them.