high end sound

simphiwes

what the heck do people mean by high end sound. i have read many reviews, both personal(audioreview.com) and professional and people use this discripction a lot. how will i know if any audio equipment has a high end sound.

thank you in advance.

Face

Go to a high end store and listen to some high end gear.

simphiwes

that doesnt help me much FACE, i have been to a so called high end shop and have listened to gear that was sometimes 10% of the price of the gear in the high end shop and the cheaper gear sounded better(sometimes), hence my question again, what characterises a high end sound. is this something personal in that it may be different from individual to individual. is it just just because it cost more?

pearsall001

simphiwes wrote: »

what the heck do people mean by high end sound. i have read many reviews, both personal(audioreview.com) and professional and people use this discripction a lot. how will i know if any audio equipment has a high end sound.

thank you in advance.

I think the term "hi end" was coined from someone who used to work in the BOSE marketing department. It's a bunch of hooey in my book. Your ears are the guiding force in audio...if it sounds dynamite to you, then guess what...it is. That's all that matters. Don't get caught up in the "being expensive equates to the best sound". Not true by a long shot.

Early B.

To answer your question regarding high end sound, consider the opposite -- "low end sound." That is sound from a typical car radio, boom box, or other such cheap audio system. Once you do that, it's easy to see what differentiates high end sound from low end sound -- accuracy, tonal quality, imaging, and the myriad of adjectives used to describe high end sound. We normally don't use such terms for a boombox.

reeltrouble1

its considered the finest of the audio gear, engineering, looks, sound, and yes it cost more. It's not likely a person would like the sound of all hi end gear. I think you can achieve a musically satisfying rig without having "hi end" components.

For some even though the differences are comparitively small, once they have heard hi-end they like, they just cannot go back to anything less, its all subjective with the sound.

other terms are lofi midfi and hifi

RT1

cfrizz

So called high end sound usually correlates with a high end price. As well as an ego boost for those that own it.

Mind you, none of it necessarily means a thing.

I ignore all of it & get the best I can afford within my price range & let my ears decide what sounds the best!

TroyD

Closest possible fidelity and faithful playback of whatever particular medium you are playing.

That said, it means different things to different people. No two people hear the same so if it sounds good to you and you dig it, that's all that matters on BOTH ends of the spectrum. I'm not much for folks who disparage what others enjoy.

BDT

bikezappa

To me High End sound is an advertising slogan made up by people that sell things.
My old professor in college said you can usually tell when you are getting BSed when people are trying to tell or sell you something with facts and figures that have NO UNITS. Much of audio advertising and discriptions have NO UNITS. It's like trying to decide how ice cream tastes and some people would tell you that there is high end ice cream. There are no ice cream units.

Use your logic to decide what sounds good to you and remember music is the best. You can put as much money and energy into setting up a sound system as you want. How the term high end fits into that goal depends on how logical you are IMHO. The basis for logic for setting up a audio system IMHO is accurate double blind A/B testing.

If you can't hear the differnce with A/B testing then maybe it really isn't that important. Just like an ice cream A/B test, if they taste the same why pay 10 times the price for one ice cream. The problem with accurate A/B testing is that it requires some serious work and set up.

And we know that advertising people don't want you to do that.

Have a blast.

SolidSqual

High-End sound exists. It's seeking to achieve that last 1.5% as some hardcore guys say around here. You run in a problem of diminishing returns but for some its worth it.

Honestly, this is not something you should worry about. Just start trying gear and find the sound you can't live without. Then you will be set.

Or, you could join the dillusional camp that's convinced sound is sound and Hi Fi is nothing more than marketing. That would save you many dollars and allow you to recycle your drycleaning hangers for speaker wire.

bikezappa

Let your well developed logic and ears be the judge.

F1nut

SolidSqual wrote: »

Or, you could join the dillusional camp that's convinced sound is sound and Hi Fi is nothing more than marketing. That would save you many dollars and allow you to recycle your drycleaning hangers for speaker wire.

Well said.

Hawkeye

In my opinion, high end sound starts with YOUR ears. Everybody hears differently.

What I listened for while building my system:

Could I tell the difference between the instruments or was there a smear that made it hard to distinguish the instruments.

Would a strike of the cymbals have a reasonable decay and can I hear the drum stick actually strike the cymbal or drum head?

Is there absolute dead silence between notes being played or is there some noise in there. Kinda like the debate of the blackest black on TV.

Can I distinguish more than 1 note of bass being played and can I tell the difference between a bass drum and a bass guitar. Will bass notes be tight or or will they be bloated like the skin is loose and vibrate too long.

Is the room treated to take advantage of the equipment placed in it? My system sounded thin and weak until I put in some traps here and there to solve some issues.

I have what may be considered a hi end system. To achieve some of the things I mentioned above requires spending the long green. That is not to say you can't build a nice accurate system for less money which sounds good to you.

I must say it is not an ego booster to me to have expensive pieces. I started with AVR's, several different amps, players and Polk speakers. As my addiction to this hobby grew worse, I learned what I liked and what I didn't. As my requirements changed, so did the equipment. I saved for 3 years to be able to purchase what I wanted. Quality equipment costs more. I know that if something goes wrong with my gear, that the company is going to be in business and can repair it even if it is 40 -50 years old. It is as simple as that.

Gordon

maximillian

Hawkeye wrote: »

I have what may be considered a hi end system. To achieve some of the things I mentioned above requires spending the long green. That is not to say you can't build a nice accurate system for less money which sounds good to you.

For me the question is how do I know that I have achieved a high end system without buying tons of equipment to experiment? I am relatively knew to this hobby and would like to know if my system is good for the money I spent or am I seriously lacking something? How do I know if my soundstage and imaging are good or mediocre?

I have RTi6's and R50's as fronts. I like the sound that they produce together. Alone each speaker doesn't sound good enough, however together they sound great. At first I had them separated and found out that the imaging greatly suffered, although it did sound really nice. Then I stacked the 6's on top of the 50's. Now the vocals are a lot more centralized. With classical music I can hear a separation of the instruments as if they should be in the location that one would expect (violins on left, basses on right, solo instruments in the middle). However, I cannot tell if I have a good front to back sound stage. To me it sounds rather limited. Vocals are a couple feet in front of the speakers and drums are a couple feet in back. However I have heard people describe a soundstage that is much deeper than this. So am I lacking? I admit it could be my source since I am only using 192-320 kpbs mp3's. However I am also wondering if I should get some LSi9's instead. So with limited funds I don't know where to invest my money... new speakers, better sources, or room treatments.

I too am not trying to be an elitist with my equipment. I just want a good sound experience, but I cannot spend tons of money to do it. Not that I don't have the money, it's because I have a wife and kids and they take priority. I imagine a lot of people are in the same situation as I am in.

Would a CD like this help test the performance of my system:
http://www.amazon.com/XLO-Reference-Test-Burn-Recordings/dp/B0000015AL

Any other suggestions? Thanks.

SlowcarIX

http://www.chesky.com/core/productlist.cfm?productcategoryid=1&genre_sysid=10016&name=Test%20Discs

#1 and #3 disc is great

you cannot hear, "see" with your ear - what is not recorded on the media

dcmeigs

Good post Hawkeye. One more thing I'd like to add to the cost is time.

I don't know anyone who is serious who actually gets it done once and is truly finished. Nothing wrong with starting out with equipment you can afford and working your way up as you hear problems and find ways to solve them. It's like looking through a dozen pieces of old glass and seeing a distorted image. Each piece of glass that you can replace with a better paine brings you closer to your objective. You identify the worst paine and start there.

I make plenty of misteps, BTW.

Hawkeye

I think if it sounds good to you, you have a hi end system. Trying to get in the box that audio reviewers say you must have in order to be "hi end" is a joke. Most of them do not have to pay for the pieces.

I have a wife and four kids. They are all grown and out of the house which allows me to spend a little more freely with our funds. There was no way possible for us to be able to afford the rig we have now when the kids were home. Shoes, clothes and the ton of food per week made it impossible. The priority was the family first so I understand your point. We are not rich people. I live in a very small house and not in the best of neighborhoods, Bdailey, who bought my speakers can verify that.

The only way to know if you think your missing something is to hang out at audio stores and really listen to systems within your budget. I almost became a pest or at least should have set up a cot at one of the places! That is where I learned about stage, depth and presentation and what my ear told me I liked.

I think if I was to start again, I'd have done the room treatments a lot sooner than I did. To me it was the best bang for the dollar by far. There is a good chance I'd still have some of my earlier pieces and more cash in my pocket and 401. Look at it this way, you'd always have them and no need to upgrade them because they work with ANY piece of gear you may have or get.

I don't subscribe to the "piece of the week" theory. I don't roll pieces in and out all the time. But, there is nothing wrong with that either. When you hear what you like, you WILL know it regardless of the price. If a $200 cd player floats your boat, then it is good enough.

We do not have to spend limited dollars to achieve someones preconcieved idea of high end. Some of the sites I visit consider my rig low to mid fi. That is ok with me, I'm the one that lives with it everyday and I am happy. I could invite five people into my house and get five different opinions on how it sounds. Who cares?

Gordon

bikezappa

maximillian wrote: »

For me the question is how do I know that I have achieved a high end system without buying tons of equipment to experiment? I am relatively knew to this hobby and would like to know if my system is good for the money I spent or am I seriously lacking something? How do I know if my soundstage and imaging are good or mediocre? .

I would suggest that you consider going to a live symphony or music concert without speakers. Buy a CD of that concert and compare the two audio experiences. That will partly answer your question I think.

As Mr Grand says, record a child playing a drum and play it back with any type of equipment and there will be big audio differences. It will be very easy to tell the difference. This test will tell you how accurate or lacking your system is.

However, many people are not concerned with the accuracy of the system and just want to enjoy and tailor the music to their tastes. Most live music today is played with much electronics between the musicians and the listener. That means to me that there is no audio standard. For example, an electronic guitar can sound a 1,000,000 different ways by modifying the sound, but a violin sounds like a violin. I'm not saying violins all sound the same way buy the basic finger print is there. Maybe a better example would listening to a person singing through mics, amps and speakers compared to a person just singing.

Both options are valid. It just depends on your goal.

cfrizz

Nice post Gordon.

Hawkeye wrote: »

I think if it sounds good to you, you have a hi end system. Trying to get in the box that audio reviewers say you must have in order to be "hi end" is a joke. Most of them do not have to pay for the pieces.

I have a wife and four kids. They are all grown and out of the house which allows me to spend a little more freely with our funds. There was no way possible for us to be able to afford the rig we have now when the kids were home. Shoes, clothes and the ton of food per week made it impossible. The priority was the family first so I understand your point. We are not rich people. I live in a very small house and not in the best of neighborhoods, Bdailey, who bought my speakers can verify that.

The only way to know if you think your missing something is to hang out at audio stores and really listen to systems within your budget. I almost became a pest or at least should have set up a cot at one of the places! That is where I learned about stage, depth and presentation and what my ear told me I liked.

I think if I was to start again, I'd have done the room treatments a lot sooner than I did. To me it was the best bang for the dollar by far. There is a good chance I'd still have some of my earlier pieces and more cash in my pocket and 401. Look at it this way, you'd always have them and no need to upgrade them because they work with ANY piece of gear you may have or get.

I don't subscribe to the "piece of the week" theory. I don't roll pieces in and out all the time. But, there is nothing wrong with that either. When you hear what you like, you WILL know it regardless of the price. If a $200 cd player floats your boat, then it is good enough.

We do not have to spend limited dollars to achieve someones preconcieved idea of high end. Some of the sites I visit consider my rig low to mid fi. That is ok with me, I'm the one that lives with it everyday and I am happy. I could invite five people into my house and get five different opinions on how it sounds. Who cares?

Gordon

steveinaz

"High-end" is a term used in an attempt to justify/pacify paying an astronomical price for something that could have likely been equaled for far less money.

But seriously, usually "high-end" means the use of exotic materials, price-no-object components, no compromises approach, etc. As you might imagine, you have to decide for yourself if these elements justify (in terms of performance) the cost...

As an example, let's take a fishing reel. Let's say you have a high-end fishing reel with steel gears, titanium body, cherry wood crank handles---does it make it better than an otherwise identical reel made with standard materials? Maybe. Now, the high-end reel is $495, and the standard is $165; keeping in mind that they both function identically, is the extra cost justified? Only you can answer that.

maximillian

SlowcarIX wrote: »

http://www.chesky.com/core/productlist.cfm?productcategoryid=1&genre_sysid=10016&name=Test%20Discs

#1 and #3 disc is great

you cannot hear, "see" with your ear - what is not recorded on the media

Is that volumes 1 and 3 or the 1st and 3rd items on the list?

SlowcarIX

items 1 and 3 - Ultimate Demonstration Disc and Jazz Sampler & Test Volume 1

madmax

simphiwes wrote: »

i have been to a so called high end shop and have listened to gear that was sometimes 10% of the price of the gear in the high end shop and the cheaper gear sounded better(sometimes)

This is often the case due to the room the equipment is in. Really high end gear has very little of its own sound. You know when you hear it. The equipment disappears and all you have left is people playing the music. This is REALLY hard to achieve and costs a lot. Its doubtful you will hear this in an audio shop. The best way is to go to peoples houses to hear their setups.

Face

Max, a few of the high end shops around here have fully treated rooms. Even B&W's can sound neutral to warm in them.

But yes, the typical setup, shelves full of speakers in small rooms, many times will sound less than impressive.

treitz3

simphiwes wrote: »

What the heck do people mean by high end sound?

When goose bumps happen uncontrollably throughout 80% of the song.

I'll also echo RT1's response in post #6 and add that high end sound is something that kinda has to be part of one's lifelong audio journey to really appreciate. Much like a seasoned wine taster. Some of the high end sound is not what everybody would consider "great" sound and I think it has to do with what sounds that you are familiar with hearing.

For example, let's say that you have been accustomed to hearing Cerwin-Vega's with the redbook format all of your life and then you walk into a "high end" shop and listen to a good tubed integrated paired with a bookshelf running the SACD format. Chances are, you will not like the sound because it is not what you are accustomed to hearing. The opposite would happen for someone who grew accustomed to tubes, SACD and bookshelves tubes and went to audition a pair of CV's and redbook.

The two sounds are totally different and completely subjective for the listener. Most of us have had different backgrounds when being exposed to music reproduction and because of that we all have different ways in which we expect music to sound and this I feel is simply because of what exposure to reproduction you have grown accustomed to hearing and expect.

Seasoned veterans of the HI-FI world, even if they do have high-end sound as you call it, still have strong views of what the sound should be like. Again, because it is what that particular listener has become accustomed to listening to and through experience have been able to tell the finer differences that an unseasoned listener may not even be able to point out.

When you reach a more sophisticated level of awareness and your personal approach to listening, you will be able to quickly pick out an overemphasis of a particular frequency or frequencies and you will also find yourself being able to pick out the finer nuances and subtleties that IMO is something one cannot learn quickly. It must be acquired over time and when you make this a life long learning process, you will find out what high end sound is through the natural course of time. If you stay on top of it, one day it will dawn on you exactly what defines high end sound to you.

Good luck and have fun on your journey.

madmax

Face wrote: »

Max, a few of the high end shops around here have fully treated rooms. Even B&W's can sound neutral to warm in them.

My point was that even in these type of rooms there is still something missing. People are fanatics at home but there is only so far that you go at work. I'm sure it happens though.
madmax

Hawkeye

treitz3 wrote: »

When goose bumps happen uncontrollably throughout 80% of the song.

Well said.

Gordon

bikezappa

treitz3 wrote: »

When goose bumps happen uncontrollably throughout 80% of the song. :DQUOTE]

I not sure why the goose bumps happen to me. Is it the special equipment or the music and the performer.

I have had the bumps while listening to a POS boom box many times.

I can also play certain tunes on almost any system and get the bumps.

The bumps are the best.

mule

Its like food, just because sushi is expensive dosen't meen it will taste good and you can buy an authentic enchillada for 2 bucks and it will taste delicious.

Also people listen to music for different reasons, some listen to the technical aspect of the instruments and the difficulty of what the musicians are playing and think if it is complicated it is good. Others listen to the tones and what sounds are pleasing to the ear, some look for meaning in the words, and some just want it to be loud, all these things alone will lead people to have a different opinion of what speakers sound good.

Or maybe they are just refering to treble:D

steveinaz

I like crappy equipment that plays really loud, see my sig for proof.

tonyb

steveinaz wrote: »

I like crappy equipment that plays really loud, see my sig for proof.

Yeah right....if thats the case,then you don't catch many fish either.:p:)